Suggestion [OP]Necromancers

[Bingy1218]

No. Ive tested with fo0l3d he got me from 936 to 150hp in 1second. maybe 2 at a push

 

[Bingy1218]

Destroys there stamina but destroys our hp

 

[Egorh]

In 1 second? Is that a joke?

Ninja's cant do 900 insta damage but thieves can if they get the opponent directly behind and they don't get knocked back to far. As thief I could insta kill anything other then warrior specs because of backstab damage. Other then that thief is a pretty useless class that has no good use in group fights and isn't good in 1v1's.

 

[judgedread540]

Ninja's cant do 900 insta damage but thieves can if they get the opponent directly behind and they don't get knocked back to far. As thief I could insta kill anything other then warrior specs because of backstab damage. Other then that thief is a pretty useless class that has no good use in group fights and isn't good in 1v1's.

Ninja can pack quite a punch in a short period of time, 1 second is a bit drastic but

Without missing you can hit 2-3 times per second so therefore doing aprox 240 damage per second just with a sword and when you add in eviscerate + other skills. Over 4 seconds a ninja can Kick (69 damage + silence), eviscerate ( 200 damage) + then just enough time to blitz ( 250hp) + hit 8 times (960 damage). This is baring in mind the target is stood still and not moving/dodging attacks.

69 +
200
250
960
----
1479

So a ninja can do 1479hp to a unarmored target over 4 seconds

A ninja can do a lot of damage but are very squishy. I think ninja needs a slight Nerf but its hard to get the time to blitz in battle because of the short range, an armored target can be harder to take down due to the fact that a sword is a ninja's greatest weapon, a good player can move and dodge some of your sword hits. All them points can probably half the 1479 damage.

Might i also add that you dont have enough stamina to do it all at once as you have 19/20 stamina, blitz and evis both take 10 stamina each so if you kick + evis it will be a few seconds before you can blitz, sprint or use any other skill.

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

Guys might I remind you this is a thread about necromancers.......
Also, I think that if I could change something about necros, it would be harmshield. Possibly absorb less damage, right now a necro doesn't even need stuff to kill people, if it has harmshield.

 

[alexhoff1]

If you are willing to see our point, we are probably willing to see your point.

Guys might I remind you this is a thread about necromancers.......
Also, I think that if I could change something about necros, it would be harmshield. Possibly absorb less damage, right now a necro doesn't even need stuff to kill people, if it has harmshield.

Keep in mind you guys trashed the thread "Ninja's" too. it has like 10 pages of you guys whining about wizards.

see our point, and we may see yours.

 

[kevinlive]

Oh btw, did I mention that a level 20 theif did 850 dmg to me in 0.5 seconds yesterday? Yeah, my combo does about 672 dmg, in the time span of 21 seconds, and leaves me at 50% mana.

To the guys that's going to say 'butbutbut, you can just keep spamming drainsoul', so can you, you have a sword and some skills aswell, don't you?

*Cough* @PewPewPewLasers, I still get nightmares about that. *cough*

People, give me proof and stats, not just 'op this, op that. Nerf pl0x.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I could use harmshield, but it uses 50% mana, and has a hefty warmup.
Harmshield + full combo = 0% mana.

 

[xexorian]

?? I didn't say that is wasn't a caster spec. Beguiler should be beat by the other classes because it isn't suppose to be superior in 1v1's, it is a support. Much like a bard. But atm it is much better support then a bard is.

No you didn't, You said it was a "a support". A support what? Support class? Where does it say support? Where does it say it isn't suppose to be superior in 1v1's? Not that I'm saying it should be. Who's saying it is? Maybe you just suck fighting them? It's a caster specialty class, it's meant to deal damage. Now you're gonna start complaining about Bards, right?

It's easier if you list valid reasons why classes are "superior" and point out as many logical situations where this could apply, rather than making opinionated arguments about it. At the heart of "MLG" and pro gaming it boils down to the math and virtualization of it. If it can be simulated to have a higher survivability, dps, etc. than the other class spec's then it could, within reason, be adjusted to account for this.

However, I also feel there's something else to address here;

Just because your class is balanced against Necromancer, that doesn't mean all of them are.

Pernixpike you make a good point - who's to say Beguiler is balanced against any specific; ie "YOUR" class? or that it should be? if all the classes are balanced against every other class then the gameplay would be basic minecraft all over again. You'd have 1 skill that does 1 damage on a 1 second cooldown - and everyone would have like 5 health.

Perfect balance. I must be a genius.








Yes that was sarcasm, but it makes valid points when you guys bring up ridiculous arguments about class balance because you can't beat one or two popular pvpers who choose to use their specced class against yours. Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe here, you could validate your claim by testing out your class mechanics and then making bullet points about what seems to be overpowered about it, say in ninja vs beguiler..or any other situation. Analytical breakdown is what these forums need more of.

 

[PernixPike]

No you didn't, You said it was a "a support". A support what? Support class? Where does it say support? Where does it say it isn't suppose to be superior in 1v1's? Not that I'm saying it should be. Who's saying it is? Maybe you just suck fighting them? It's a caster specialty class, it's meant to deal damage. Now you're gonna start complaining about Bards, right?

It's easier if you list valid reasons why classes are "superior" and point out as many logical situations where this could apply, rather than making opinionated arguments about it. At the heart of "MLG" and pro gaming it boils down to the math and virtualization of it. If it can be simulated to have a higher survivability, dps, etc. than the other class spec's then it could, within reason, be adjusted to account for this.

However, I also feel there's something else to address here;

Pernixpike you make a good point - who's to say Beguiler is balanced against any specific; ie "YOUR" class? or that it should be? if all the classes are balanced against every other class then the gameplay would be basic minecraft all over again. You'd have 1 skill that does 1 damage on a 1 second cooldown - and everyone would have like 5 health.

Perfect balance. I must be a genius.








Yes that was sarcasm, but it makes valid points when you guys bring up ridiculous arguments about class balance because you can't beat one or two popular pvpers who choose to use their specced class against yours. Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe here, you could validate your claim by testing out your class mechanics and then making bullet points about what seems to be overpowered about it, say in ninja vs beguiler..or any other situation. Analytical breakdown is what these forums need more of.

Beguiler is meant to be a caster support class. What did you think Might/Wisdom were for? Beguilers are the best support class (Non-Healer) in the game currently.

If all classes were balanced gameplay would be fair, not boring. For example, a good Ninja would beat an average DK, but a good DK would beat an average Ninja. Having balanced combat that actually relies on skill would be more fun.

 

[Egorh]

No you didn't, You said it was a "a support". A support what? Support class? Where does it say support? Where does it say it isn't suppose to be superior in 1v1's? Not that I'm saying it should be. Who's saying it is? Maybe you just suck fighting them? It's a caster specialty class, it's meant to deal damage. Now you're gonna start complaining about Bards, right?

It's easier if you list valid reasons why classes are "superior" and point out as many logical situations where this could apply, rather than making opinionated arguments about it. At the heart of "MLG" and pro gaming it boils down to the math and virtualization of it. If it can be simulated to have a higher survivability, dps, etc. than the other class spec's then it could, within reason, be adjusted to account for this.

However, I also feel there's something else to address here;

Pernixpike you make a good point - who's to say Beguiler is balanced against any specific; ie "YOUR" class? or that it should be? if all the classes are balanced against every other class then the gameplay would be basic minecraft all over again. You'd have 1 skill that does 1 damage on a 1 second cooldown - and everyone would have like 5 health.

Perfect balance. I must be a genius.








Yes that was sarcasm, but it makes valid points when you guys bring up ridiculous arguments about class balance because you can't beat one or two popular pvpers who choose to use their specced class against yours. Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe here, you could validate your claim by testing out your class mechanics and then making bullet points about what seems to be overpowered about it, say in ninja vs beguiler..or any other situation. Analytical breakdown is what these forums need more of.

In what way is beguiler not a support. They have might/wisdom. They have some of the best crowd control in the game (piggify and mass piggify), which left alone lasts a long time.

The Beguilers is a Specialty class from the Caster Path. Beguilers are the mischievous casters, the ones who wish not to directly harm their opponent, but to harass and misdirect them. They can remove magical enchantments, as well as summon food to them. A favorite trick of the Beguiler is to summon a pig for their unlucky opponent, magically binding them to it and forcing them to ride it around for the amusement of the Enchanter. They work with illusions, making souls not feel the exhaustion of battle, allowing them to fight more vigorously for longer periods of time. These souls live to enchant others, either with a positive boon or for negative effect.

Does that prove it is a support?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am a beguiler. I know for a fact that it is OP atm. If you want me to tell you what needs to be nerfed, here you go

-longer CD on dispel, 20-30s. Right now a beguiler can beat a bard/samurai with ease because they catch their opponents using wisdom and one. Dispel cancels the buff given so there is no way to catch a beguiler that is kiting you
-A shorter duration on piggify/mass piggify are needed because when the person on the pig is left alone they beguiler could get a great distance apart from the opponent.
-Plague bomb's damage decreased. Atm it is close to an AOE harmtouch on a short CD.

Someone else who might have input on why beguilers needs a nerf is @SharpPencil

 

[xexorian]

I am a beguiler.
Hostile Dispel - longer CD
-longer CD on dispel, 20-30s. Right now a beguiler can beat a bard/samurai with ease because they catch their opponents using wisdom and one. Dispel cancels the buff given so there is no way to catch a beguiler that is kiting you
Maneuverability
-A shorter duration on piggify/mass piggify are needed because when the person on the pig is left alone they beguiler could get a great distance apart from the opponent.
Damage Adjustment
-Plague bomb's damage decreased. Atm it is close to an AOE harmtouch on a short CD.

You're getting somewhere now.

I fixed a few things above, but what I would like to see is the Plaguebomb's actual damage, and comparison to harmtouch and other skills.

Also, I'd like to see how that would nerf their single target damage output, perhaps a buff to that in exchange for lower AE damage?

Thanks for the input, Truecorruptor!

 

[xexorian]

If all classes were balanced gameplay would be fair, not boring. For example, a good Ninja would beat an average DK, but a good DK would beat an average Ninja. Having balanced combat that actually relies on skill would be more fun.

Which was my point with providing better analytical input on class balance.

 

[Ostadar]

If all classes were balanced gameplay would be fair, not boring.

Now I know balance is an admirable goal and should not be given up on, but it should also be taken into account that true balance in any game that has any degree of class variance or; I should say, an aspect that makes an individual class being unique, is neigh impossible to obtain. I mean arguments about class balance have been brought up in every game that has had classes and PvP/PvE, and some of those arguments never take into account player skill.

The problem with class balance is that unless your have a computer program running the numbers, all you have is humans doing the testing themselves. With humans doing the testing it boils down to human skill and error to affect those numbers. Even if a computer did the testing it would still boil down to the fact that you would need to take out things like silence, slows, knockback_ pretty much anything that might make another class more unique over another to achieve some semblance of balance. You can play number games all day, but unless those are removed then simple damage output means very little in terms of balance (I'm Not saying to remove them though, just want it to be understood).

 

[PernixPike]

Perfect balance may be impossible to obtain, but we sure as hell can get a lot closer than where we are now.

 

[Ostadar]

Perfect balance may be impossible to obtain, but we sure as hell can get a lot closer than where we are now.

Please consider that I never said that it was impossible, just that it might as well be due to how difficult it is to reach balance. I should also add that through trying to balance the classes you might also make the balance worse by weakening a class to ineffectiveness from personal opinion instead of actual data because, like I had stated before, we are human and therefore more susceptible to error.

Which brings me around to the point that please, let us get some real data on from now on about the classes before posting these balance threads.

 

[PernixPike]

Lets be honest, A Necromancer could just bind every skill they have to someones name. Then when the fight starts, pull out their dick and slam it all over the keyboard. This would be sufficient to kill 75% of classes currently. Something isn't right.

Scrimshaballin.

 

[Ostadar]

Almost anyone could do that in a 1v1, the reason why a Necromancer can survive is because their play style. They need to DoT and run away. Steal life if they get hit with DrainSoul, and use HarmShield to avoid damage if they can't get away.

I can admit one thing about necromancers thought. I do not like HarmShield as a level 60 skill but only because I don't think it matches the idea of them. I wanted something else. I was hoping for a DoT that did something similar to DrainSoul but for the party.

 

[Bingy1218]

If the entire idea of a necromancer is to dot and kite then I would prefer if those dots had cast times. this would make it in a 1v1 that someone is not just aimlessly running around clicking shit to kill someone and the enemy is not able to catch up with them. a cast timer will make things a little more even than what used to be considered as
"Kite and Smite" for Disciples

 

[xexorian]

I agree with Ostadar and Bingy.

Harmshield should be changed to drainsoul. Perhaps, an AE based drain soul that hits upto 4 enemies within like 4 yards, for each enemy hit it heals the Necromancer's party for (1/4th the total damage.) I think the heal effect should be localized around the necro too. Honestly, it should be dynamic and heal the full damage, like Drainsoul, but divide it by friendlies within the parties group. Also, you'd want to divide it even if he's soloing, because he could hit like 4+ people and go full health on cd for this type of skill.

As to bingy's idea, it'd be great if 2 skills were instant, like your primary DoT effects, and then 2 more had cast times, but were worth using. The 2 primary DoT effects should have a decent cd to prevent spamming. And then like an ultimate skill at 45 or 60 would have a slightly longer warmup, but could be like Plague or something that spreads to groups and deals decent damage. Seems much easier to balance something like this, while providing ability for single target, area effect, and 2 medium-dps attacks that slow you to use.

iow; any instant dots shouldn't do that much damage if you're able to just bind them to names, or even jump and spin and cast it on your pursuer, you should still need to have a "casting" effect on the big ones. IMO.

 

[teddytazer]

If a necromancer fights any melee based class, they risk dying long before the dots take effect. Poison has been been buffed to a stupid level (20 block range and 100 something damage), sure it was absolute garbage before and not worth the mp. I've been playing Necromancer since jan, and have seen many changes. The biggest buff has been increasing the mp by nearly double. A necromancer had to be careful which skills he used with fear of running outta mp or not being able to kill target. But now with increased mp all u do is spam skills and hope they die before u do, taking all the thought process outta being a caster. And yes I've noticed pretty much everyone looking for the next op class switch to necromancer.

How to fix Necromancer - Remove poison
this will keep them close-medium range without the ability to kite from 20 blocks away (further then most skills) and slowly watch them die.