Suggestion New Map, My Same Whining on Combat - Map 3, Part 3, the Re-Skillinating

[Dakinara]

I know i bring this up every map since ive played here but i really think the games combat engagements could be greatly improved with some changes to the targeting function of hero skills, especially for support. I know the game can be laggy at times which can make targetting harder, but it seems there is a general consensus that you should not be able to macro player names into hostile skills (ie, no /skill piggify <name>). While i know you currently can do that, you couldnt in the past and i hope we return to that past status. But why are support skills considered ok to macro players names? I dont see any reason support should have a handicap advantage vs attack skills, so why not get rid of /skill <target name> for all abilities on herocraft? would probably make it easier to keep no name targetting in effect.

Now obviously single target support skills currently suck to cast on other people without macros, but its about time that was changed. To increase the skill potential of herocraft combat we need less aoe healing, more targeted (ie, "skilled" use) abilities, and no more name macroing. For this to happen we would need to revise many support skills to be castable on ally only, like how bloodgift works for bloodmage. This makes targeting allies without macros much simpler, and would also allow balancing of self healing to be simpler. Most "action combat" games (tera, neverwinter, etc) limit self healing skills to one or two abilities and focus on reticle targeting of allies for other healing skills. Its easier to balance self vs ally healing this way to make sure support are never too tanky or too squishy while allowing them to remain great at supporting others through use of other ally only skills. It also makes the healing system much more active and fun to use (imo) vs the modified tab targetting (name macro) that we currently use for support in herocraft.

Although i have no coding experience whatsoever, id be willing to try and figure out how to reconfigure the code from existing hero skills used on this server to alter most of the support skills to work in this fashion. We could mess around with it on test and get a consensus on whether it is a worthwhile change or not, but id be willing to waste the time on it even if it ends up not being popular and vetoed.

Thoughts?

 

[LordZelkova]

The only was I see the removal of support name macros is every healer has double the heal skills. One for personal and one for allies only. The problem with removing support name macro's is then healing is gonna be next to impossible. If more HoT AoE Heals were introduced this wouldn't be so bad, but we don't want every class to become that. Until there is a way for people to target whoever needs healing without name macros or having to run after them hopping they need the heal and you can get it on them and not yourself or someone else, support skill macros should stay.

 

[Dakinara]

The only was I see the removal of support name macros is every healer has double the heal skills. One for personal and one for allies only. The problem with removing support name macro's is then healing is gonna be next to impossible. If more HoT AoE Heals were introduced this wouldn't be so bad, but we don't want every class to become that. Until there is a way for people to target whoever needs healing without name macros or having to run after them hopping they need the heal and you can get it on them and not yourself or someone else, support skill macros should stay.

thats exactly what im proposing - i would look at the code of ally only skills like bloodgift and intervene, use those on the majority of support skills to prevent self targetting, and then targetting other people would be easy. To keep self survivability reasonable, you could increase the healing dealt by the skills that remain self targetting, or remove the healing penalty, or give additional non healing skills to increase soloability depending on the direction you want to go with each class.

Say for cleric for example. You could make sacredword self target only, and sacred touch and full heal ally only. Then you could significantly increase the healing of sacredword, since its the only self heal cleric would have, while reducing the cooldown of sacredtouch, allowing them to use it on allies more frequently. Every class would need a pass to cooldowns / heal numbers but id be willing to go through the configs and let people test out various numbers to see what feels good.

 

[Dakinara]

Im bumpin this just cause.... whats the point of having a targeting reticle if we arent even going to use it.

 

[xMJay]

I like the idea, but adding new skills may not be needed. I think a way to toggle between self and ally heals/buffs would be easier to implement. Two modes that can be toggled between at will. With the self heal mode you can heal yourself, and with the ally mode you cannot heal yourself.

 

[Dakinara]

I like the idea, but adding new skills may not be needed. I think a way to toggle between self and ally heals/buffs would be easier to implement. Two modes that can be toggled between at will. With the self heal mode you can heal yourself, and with the ally mode you cannot heal yourself.

This had been suggested as an option in the past as well, but that would require actual coding, which personally i have no ability to do. What i am suggesting would require tweaking existing code / numbers in the hero skills config files, which i would be willing to try and work on. But either option could work, certainly.

The only advantage my suggestion has is it makes tweaking self survivability vs support capability of healers easier. But its not a critical concern for me, the main thing i want to see is an end to name targeting macros and requiring people to actually target with their reticle. I think this would be a more intuitive and fun system and also remove the insanely tedious measure of macroing peoples names into 20+ keybinds everytime your party members change.

 

[Ice_Burner]

The sad thing is, this is Minecraft, not a completely stand-alone RPG game (Although that would be awesome as fuck)

Making it to where you can't target heals without name binds is literally impossible among the giant cluster fuck of fighting.

 

[Dakinara]

The sad thing is, this is Minecraft, not a completely stand-alone RPG game (Although that would be awesome as fuck)

Making it to where you can't target heals without name binds is literally impossible among the giant cluster fuck of fighting.

And yet why is it completely possible to use offensive skills without macro targetting? No one ever complained "damn its impossible to target someone with piggify or bolt - we need name macroing!". In fact most pvp players have always wanted name macroing out of offensive skills because it leads to insanely derpy kiting without ever having to turn and face anyone.

Healing should not get a free pass on targeting - it should have to aim and select the target you want just like everything else. Only need to modify skills to prevent self targetting to make this practical.

 

[Ice_Burner]

And yet why is it completely possible to use offensive skills without macro targetting? No one ever complained "damn its impossible to target someone with piggify or bolt - we need name macroing!". In fact most pvp players have always wanted name macroing out of offensive skills because it leads to insanely derpy kiting without ever having to turn and face anyone.

Healing should not get a free pass on targeting - it should have to aim and select the target you want just like everything else. Only need to modify skills to prevent self targetting to make this practical.

It's easy for point-and-click offensive skills because they don't have an effect on yourself, unlike healing based abilities.
EDIT: As well as that, when you are playing this and fighting you're more or less in first person, not in third person such as in traditional MMORPGS, making it harder for the targeting reticle to get to someone. As well as ranges on healing abilities.

 

[Dakinara]

It's easy for point-and-click offensive skills because they don't have an effect on yourself, unlike healing based abilities.

exactly - i want to remove the ability to self cast except on a few skills. Then those skills would have their healing boosted to compensate. Then we could actually target people without macros.

 

[Dakinara]

ahh well, another map, another bunch of face palms and dislikes on this post lol.

guess you guys just cant handle "real action combat"(tm)!!!!

 

[Rhapsodist]

ahh well, another map, another bunch of face palms and dislikes on this post lol.

guess you guys just cant handle "real action combat"(tm)!!!!

Or maybe your idea just isn't all that good?
It's a sound idea, sure, but not for MC combat. MC doesn't work well with a lot of combat mechanics that would be nice to have.

 

[Dakinara]

Or maybe your idea just isn't all that good?
It's a sound idea, sure, but not for MC combat. MC doesn't work well with a lot of combat mechanics that would be nice to have.

there are skills in herocraft that already work exactly like this. All damage skills work like this (or did before they got broken again and let you macro names), and support skills like bloodgift and intervene can work like this under existing programming in game. I think you guys just want ez mode macros because you cant aim!

 

[LordZelkova]

I think you guys just want ez mode macros because you cant aim!

Alright then. You play the healer running around a 5v5 trying to heal the right guy without healing youself, the wrong person, or missing entirely. Support skills are much harder than attack because attack skills cant go off without targets (Obviously I mean the targeted skills we're talking about). Its not a matter of aiming, it's that the battlefield become so cluttered with people and stuff going on that it get hectic. Dont even start on people not using Teamspeak or HeroMod.

And then there's the issue of skills just not going off. I spammed my kick bind earlier and despite me being in range and having a valid target, it took 8 tries before it finally went off. Imagine this with support skills?

*This bit is based off your post in the BloodMage thread*
Do you just want everything to be skillshots? AoE, AoE HoT, and Burst heals are all valid ways of having a class use heals.

 

[Dakinara]

Alright then. You play the healer running around a 5v5 trying to heal the right guy without healing youself, the wrong person, or missing entirely. Support skills are much harder than attack because attack skills cant go off without targets (Obviously I mean the targeted skills we're talking about). Its not a matter of aiming, it's that the battlefield become so cluttered with people and stuff going on that it get hectic. Dont even start on people not using Teamspeak or HeroMod.

If things were reconfigured properly, you would never accidently heal yourself - it would be impossible. And you could not heal without targeting an ally, so they would not go off without a target. As for healing the wrong person... well, damage dealers have to deal with damaging the wrong person / hitting a teammate with projectiles for no effect. Whats the difference really?

Also i only play healers and am 100% for this change.

 

[LordZelkova]

If things were reconfigured properly, you would never accidently heal yourself - it would be impossible. And you could not heal without targeting an ally, so they would not go off without a target. As for healing the wrong person... well, damage dealers have to deal with damaging the wrong person / hitting a teammate with projectiles for no effect. Whats the difference really?

Also i only play healers and am 100% for this change.

The difference is that when you do a damage skill, you still harm one of the people.
But heal the wrong person? Your teammate might die now.
You really seem to want skill shots only

 

[Dakinara]

The difference is that when you do a damage skill, you still harm one of the people.
But heal the wrong person? Your teammate might die now.
You really seem to want skill shots only

I wouldnt call them skill shots (cant activate most hero skills without a target) but reticle targeted only - yes that is exactly what i want, just like is the case in basically every game that uses a targeting reticle.

 

[LordZelkova]

I wouldnt call them skill shots (cant activate most hero skills without a target) but reticle targeted only - yes that is exactly what i want, just like is the case in basically every game that uses a targeting reticle.

With the way 1.8 and the server are this would ruin essentially any and all support skills. Self targets would be OP and support skills would be useless.

 

[Dakinara]

With the way 1.8 and the server are this would ruin essentially any and all support skills. Self targets would be OP and support skills would be useless.

again, i just dont see how this is any different from attack skills. They have to deal with lag and latency just as much as healing. There is no functional difference at all. I dont really find any major difficulty landing entangle / ire since 1.8 (spam that button! same as always ) so in general i dont see how this would especially cause issues for healing.

Every mmo game i have played with a targetting reticle makes you target people you want to heal with the reticle. Tera, neverwinter, everquest landmark, etc. Herocraft is like semi-holding on to tab targetting with this name macro stuff when it doesnt have to, it could move to fully reticle targetting and be a much more intuitive / "skillfull" game as a result.

Besides the skill factor, macroing is extremely tedious and annoying, having to switch around keybinds constantly everytime you group with a new person / people.

 

[LightTheAbsol]

Needless to say, if this was added in then nobody would actually heal their teammates as it would be more productive to focus on damage. (unless the heal is a layhands.) It would be hard to aim, and annoying. The server's lag is also random, meaning you cant gain skill in healing by aiming a bit ahead because you know where the person really is as the server might be lagging more that day then usual, and they are really a block ahead of where you're aiming.