Suggestion Monthly Check In -- why are players not staying?

[Kainzo]

im taking time to read this, thank you for the feedback

 

[Wild_Porygon]

Greets! So I've gathered some things from what I saw when players attempted to play here (from a fresh start / not returning player) and here's what I saw. I hope to fix these issues and would love insight on my suggested fixes. You can also use this as a place to express your dislike for something we have in so we can work on changing it. (T2 leveling rate will get better, promise!)


High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.

• Implement potion/buffs to victims to dissuade prolonged camping
• debuff murderers for prolong camping (slow/weakness/etc)

Ok, I would like to first off say before I suggest a stronger solution to this that buffing/debuffing people based on who they kill is an absolutely atrocious solution. It will simply drive people away from combat by creating an unfun experience.

The thing that people never seem to understand is not only that camping new players isn't something that occurs as often as it is complained about, but the reason that people kill low levels and newer players is because they are bored. In the last 4 years of Herocraft, if you asked any active PvPers whether they would like to gank new (and I use this term loosely, because it seems people are confusing new with lower (not always low) level) or have a 10v10 teamfight with another town, I can guarantee you each and every one of them would prefer the teamfight.

The issue of new players getting camped stems from the fact that people like PvP, but there aren't other ways to get it. Although I dislike comparing the current map to Bastion, Bastion was hugely successful and I think a comparison fits here. If you were to show up at a town filled with mostly PvEers in Bastion, you would probably get a couple kills, maybe get a decent amount of loot, but in about 20 minutes you can bet your ass another town is sending a full party to come kill you. A lot of the reasons that people killed low levels on other maps is because it would provoke people to come fight; not only would the provokers probably get some decent loot from the town they were raiding, not only would they get to pad their stats a bit, see there name pop up in chat as the whole server got to see you going on a rampage, but you would get REAL PVP out of it. Onto the actual comparison, the difference between this map and Bastion is that Bastion had a larger and more active playerbase. This means in the simplest of terms that it is a lot easier for people to find PvP themselves, whether it just be showing up at a random town, finding people in the wild, when there are more people playing more consistently initiatives to fight aren't needed, because they're always there. This is something that you've addressed below and that I will also be addressing down below, but the fact of the matter is that you need to recognize when things start to turn south (which you have, and I am very grateful for that) and provide a reason for someone to pick Herocraft over a minigame server. Nine times out of ten, it'll either be because of the community or because of Heroes.


New players are unable to level without being killed.

• Implement a dungeon ticket system to instanced areas with no pvp for SET times (30mins / 1hour) - allowing players to effectively spend currency and RL cash to bypass PVP for only set periods.
• Turn off PVP in some dungeons during boosts. (I like this a little less than an instancing system)

In a similar vein to what I said above, there are a few things that need to be addressed off the bat:
1. THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN LOW LEVEL PLAYERS AND NEW PLAYERS
The term noob gets thrown around so loosely these days and I think it really clutters up a lot of these debates, especially in game. I've played on this map for probably 3 days in total (would be more but I got banned for 3 days, oops) and I've killed my fair share of people. I am currently a level 56 Beguiler, and I'm only there because of a boost. 75% of my kills came from when I was below level 30, killing people within 10 levels of me or way higher than me, but because my name is more well known than theirs I am accused of killing noobs. This is something that happens with so many of the active PvPers. If someone is a master Ninja, kills 200 people, is an avid PvPer, then switches out to wizard and gets ganked when he's leveling; is that a problem? When is the line drawn for when people should be allowed to fight, and be expected to defend themselves? A lot of the people who complain (mostly in game) are people who have played long enough to know that if you run out into a group of players, they will kill you. They know that if you go alone to a dungeon which is a PvP hotspot a lot of the time, you will be killed. It's really not a hard concept to understand, it's just that people are a lot more trigger happy on their complain buttons these days and if they do something that is a completely natural part of the game and lose something, it's clearly an issue that the server has, right11/!/1/

Onto my actual suggestion, I think that the solution to a lot of these issues listed here relies on creating some sort of endgame content. I don't think the right approach is to turn off PvP in certain areas, first because it restricts a very vital part of the Herocraft experience which is the "always watch your back" attitude, babysitting players will make their experience more enjoyable for their first few days, but it will slowly kill off the server because when everyone is being babysitted nobody wants to play anymore. Secondly, I believe a better approach is to encourage PvP in certain areas when a boost is active instead of discouraging it in certain areas. By discouraging it in certain areas, you are essentially just saying "Hey, we know this is an issue but we're not going to deal with it, we're just going to throw in a makeshift solution to keep people from complaining." I understand that sounds a bit aggressive, but adding something like a certain conquest or capture point that is only activated during a boost is something that could really solve more than one problem. There actually is an advantage to ganking players while they're leveling outside of getting that mad ELO, but you can get a lot of souls if you can get a decent amount of kills during a boost. If you just swoop in there and kill a few people while they're dying to pigmen, you get the exhilarating feeling of successfully ganking someone, ELO, and some decent cash. Repeat this a few times over the course of the boost and you get real money out of it. If you switch people's focus to a bigger reward which can be obtained during these boosts, it gives them something to do during these boosts for those that are maxed, so they can get the experience they want without fucking around with the low levels. It should be noted however, that if a system such as this were to be added, people would still gank levelers, and that is 100% OK. It is crucial that people die a few times to players while they are leveling to they can get a real feel for how the server is in reality. Making it happen less frequently is still great, but having it happen every once in a while is beneficial all around.

New players don't understand the systems

• Get a focus group (or have guides) have most asked questions thrown to the players faces, faster.
• Simplify some things in the item system.

Honestly I don't really have an opinion on this or the next point, they aren't something that directly affect my experience as a player so I'll let others with more knowledge on that pitch in their ideas.


The systems are too complex.

• I'm at a loss to this one.

There is little high-end past max level.

• Push for Townships for high-end with political conflict to upgrade past certain points
• More Events
• Conquest points to promote pvpers camping areas and fighting each other.

This x10000000, I'm not going to type up an enormous post on this essentially repeating the things I said above because I think you are pretty spot on with how this should be dealt with. Simply giving people initiatives to go places to fight, such as towns or PvP hotspots will shift a lot of pressure off of low level players, because there is more gain to going to these spots than there is killing a naked level 16 necro in a swamp. This point cannot be stressed enough and I hope this is shifted into a priority.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations

• Remove OOC chat
• Heavily moderate other chats
• or
• Heavily moderate and freely give out mutes for repeated offenders

I think that stronger moderation is something people could tolerate, but I am VERY against getting rid of O chat personally. I think O chat is where a lot of the enjoyment from the server comes on, because it brings together the community in a lot of different ways, whether it be from people creating bonds or friendships to some extent (lol), but most importantly O chat creates rivalries. This is a strange point and I realize that, but it is infinitely more entertaining to see people shit talking each other than it is to see nothing. I would much rather opposing groups hate each other than be neutral to each other. I agree however that the extent to which some people (myself included) shit talk is probably a bit too toxic. It's not the amount that it happens, but its the sheer vulgarity in the shit talk that is a little bit offputting. I would like to point out however, that this issue is not something that is solely something that "Those gosh darn PvPers" have. The PvE community can be just as toxic in chat. The fault falls on a lot of people, however because the difference between the two groups mainly falls down to extreme vulgarity as opposed to passive aggressive comments and complaining, the blame falls a lot on the PvPers (not to say we aren't a problem when it comes to chat). It seems from my perspective that rules are rather vague and punishments seem incredibly inconsistent and biased, and I think that if better chat rules were implemented and those responsible for the muting stayed more objective that this issue could start to be dealt with quicker.


There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.

• Properly Implement the Admin Shop for players to sink coins into.

I think I have 4c, no comment on this one.

There's no reason to log in every day.

• Revamp the /dailybonus rewards so that streaks of logins will grant awesome items or titles.

I think that this isn't as much a solution as it is a bonus. This isn't something that is going to get people to log on, this is something that will keep people on assuming they're already there. The incentive to play needs to come from the actual enjoyment of the game, not people logging in for a few minutes to collect their rewards then log off. The rewards and titles won't make any difference if nobody is around to experience them. I think that addressing the issues above will completely eliminate this problem. People don't log on to Herocraft saying "Oh boy, I can't wait for my 25c!" They log on hoping to get a fun experience out of the game, whatever they may be interested in.

Thanks for reading and please give me your feedback! I want Herocraft to be fun for everyone and to grow as a community!

All in all, I would just like to say Kainzo I really do appreciate you making a thread like this. I think it is phenomenal that you are willing to recognize when things can improve and it shows that you're interested in preserving the server. I've only been playing a few days and I've been having a ton of fun which was honestly much to my surprise, and I genuinely hope that this map can survive because it has so much potential. I hope that things get out of the planning stage and get into the doing stage however, because if too much time is spent trying to create the perfect system then the server will fill apart. It's ok to not have the perfect server, I'll take a slightly flawed or unbalanced PvP initiative over nothing 7 days a week.

About the camping noobs, I just wanna say there is a huge misconception with most pve/non pvp players thinking that we camp for elo, nobody cares about the pointless elo system it is literally purely out of boredom seeing as you can't even get items from killing people anymore, well you can but it's never worth the effort.

 

[radicater11]

About the camping noobs, I just wanna say there is a huge misconception with most pve/non pvp players thinking that we camp for elo, nobody cares about the pointless elo system it is literally purely out of boredom seeing as you can't even get items from killing people anymore, well you can but it's never worth the effort.

If you're bored, go play another game instead of ruining a noob's experience.

 

[Wild_Porygon]

If you're bored, go play another game instead of ruining a noob's experience.

<insert bannable flame here towards parents/family/friends/etc> , so you are basically implying people should quit herocraft

 

[radicater11]

<insert bannable flame here towards parents/family/friends/etc> , so you are basically implying people should quit herocraft

No, go play another game for a few hours, then come back. No one is forcing you to play HC 24/7.

 

[Wild_Porygon]

No, go play another game for a few hours, then come back. No one is forcing you to play HC 24/7.

come back to what, go kill noobs again?

 

[radicater11]

come back to what, go kill noobs again?

At this point, I realized that I will never get through to you, and I should just leave the argument at that.

 

[Maximillion_V_Midn]

Since you asked, I will tell you, same as the others in this thread are doing.

High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.
Ban the offenders. A week or so ought to get the message across. Bullies don't understand anything short of being slapped around themselves, and when they hold the highest ranks and buffs in the game....only a KICK or BAN will do.

I mean, hell, I am pretty new, in terms of how long I've been around, and how much in-game play I've seen, and all it took was defending a Newbie being ridiculed in Chat to be Spam-Bountied from then up to now.

New players are unable to level without being killed.
New players don't understand the systems

• I think this is less a matter of them not reading, or having comprehension problems....and more that they cannot apply what they have learned, due to the excessive camping, terrorism and hazing that the Vets do to a large majority of new players.

The systems are too complex.

• I agree with Kainzo, I don't think the systems are too complex; people just aren't being given an opportunity to truly LEARN the System.

There is little high-end past max level. (another example of behavior that makes Newbies turn back the way they came)

• No stake on this, as I haven't been left alone long enough to level that much, and everyone who offers me a place in their Town has got me out to the Wilderness, and killed my character.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations

• Chat is toxic, 90%+ of the time, because BEHAVIORS IN-GAME are toxic. PvP is unchivalrous, people use the Plugins in unethical ways (such as keeping Bounties on the same people, over and over, for MONTHS ON END, just to see them get upset <aka TOXIC players causing much of the above issues brought up above>)

There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.

• Another thing that sounds like a problem for people who have been on the server more than a handful of years, and have actually had an opportunity to harvest and keep gear and goods.

Here's a big one:

THE BOUNTY SYSTEM IS BEING USED TO HAZE & REPEL NEW PLAYERS

• I have seen cycling bounties on people who JUST joined the site. Did I mention I was one of those players, who has had cycling bounties on him since Fall of 2015?
  
• The Cooldown for Bounties should be something closer to 24 hours, to prevent abuse. This still allows toxic players to put a Bounty out each day, but at least newer/weaker players can look forward to actually PLAYING HEROCRAFT after the first Bounty is placed on us at login.

Want to know why you've heard less and less about this problem?

It's because most of the victims have quit. Nobody wants hear "Hey, I will show you where my town is", or "Hey, I can show you a good place to mine", or "Stupid noob. Consider yourself bountied".

What is there to do on Herocraft, when you're prevented from Mining, Leveling, Acquiring (and keeping) Soul Shards and really establishing yourself?

Where is the drive to do so, when you distrust ANYTHING people say to you, because everyone LIES just to get you to the Wilderness, then to stab you in the back for your gear, and drain you of your EXP.

Believe it or not, my situation IS NOT as the worst offenders are alleging (claiming I did some atrocious thing to warrant being bullied)...

I, as a newbie in Fall of 2015, joined Herocraft. After going through the Starter Area, READING ALL OF THE SIGNS AND INFORMATION, I went into the game...

And I got camped right outside of the Spawn...
And I got bountied, for defending another newcomer who was getting hazed....
And I *KEPT* getting Bountied, every day since...
And my aggressors' actions were justified, saying "it's because you complain", which in effect says "bullying is okay, if you muster the courage to speak on prior bullying prior".

 

[Maximillion_V_Midn]

A big problem I have noticed with large servers, and particularly *old* servers, is that nobody seems to care what new players have to say. We're the stupidest of the stupid, the lowest of the low, the DRAMA'iest of the DRAMA, and every word we say makes people want to terrorize us even more.

Now, while I think the desire to glean pleasure from someone else's misery ("because they complain") is a matter for Therapy and Psychotropic Drugs, nobody can argue that the Vets pretty much run this place, and the way they run it...is pretty much atop the abuse and hazing of we newer players.

We don't need to find new ways to entertain and amuse and excite them. We need to direct them to
a Netiquette article LIKE THIS ONE and say "Study it, and put it into practice", and if they don't, send them packing.

I have zero tolerance for this, at this point. It's gotten to the point where I've said some very vulgar and nasty things, because I was pushed past a point that nobody should ever be pushed to.

Not an excuse for my behavior, but it definitely doesn't happen in a vacuum (aka It isn't random, and it isn't without provocation)

 

[peeeeeeeeeew]

A big problem I have noticed with large servers, and particularly *old* servers, is that nobody seems to care what new players have to say. We're the stupidest of the stupid, the lowest of the low, the DRAMA'iest of the DRAMA, and every word we say makes people want to terrorize us even more.

Now, while I think the desire to glean pleasure from someone else's misery ("because they complain") is a matter for Therapy and Psychotropic Drugs, nobody can argue that the Vets pretty much run this place, and the way they run it...is pretty much atop the abuse and hazing of we newer players.

We don't need to find new ways to entertain and amuse and excite them. We need to direct them to
a Netiquette article LIKE THIS ONE and say "Study it, and put it into practice", and if they don't, send them packing.

I have zero tolerance for this, at this point. It's gotten to the point where I've said some very vulgar and nasty things, because I was pushed past a point that nobody should ever be pushed to.

Not an excuse for my behavior, but it definitely doesn't happen in a vacuum (aka It isn't random, and it isn't without provocation)

I refuse to believe these posts aren't trolls, if you are being serious I really think you should reevaluate some things before you play on the server more..

 

[Maximillion_V_Midn]

Ritzierben, today, PM'd me over and over, and stood close to me in Spawn, saying "Hey man, are you looking for a town? I will show you where mine is". I didn't take him seriously at first, but after continued prompting, and urging me that he was being legit, I took my character out of Spawn to follow him...

WHAM! Dead. Class EXP lost. I crept around there, to see if I could retrieve my chest, and he was lurking on top of one of the trees out there, WAITING for me.

And, what do you know? As soon as I died from THAT bounty...ANOTHER WAS PUT ON ME.


If you think this is a troll post, you need some serious help. Bounty cooldowns don't mean a thing, when you're the lowest level character at Spawn, and you can even **SEE** the higher-level players STALKING you as you move in the direction of the Wilderness.

I once had the "privilege" of sitting in on a Skype Call where some of these people were organizing a Camping Party to recruit people into towns, tell them (over Instant Messenger) to break something for them, then kick them from the town and loot their stuff.

Those players are still on Herocraft today, and unless something drastic is done to curb this behavior, I don't see them changing their ways.


Since last Fall, I have compiled a list of things I lost as a result of back-to-back Bountying, and - back when it could be done - people who saw I had neat gear, and would use the Bounty System to gain PvP permissions to mug me for it. I originally compiled this list for bragging rights, to express my determination when it comes to being a consistent Gatherer for Towns.

Now, I present it to you as a list of losses taken (as a Non-Combatant) as a result of Back-to-Back Bountying, organized Stalking Parties, and Death Chest Camping:

So yes, my account dates back to last September...

But for all sense and purposes, I'm as much a newbie as a player who has been on a normal server for maybe 2-3 weeks, and who hasn't really had a chance to access some of the higher functions of Gameplay, such as Prestige Classes (or "Specializations"), or gaining access to the Order and Chaos classes.

Getting repeatedly targeted because I "complain" = kicking a dog between the legs repeatedly to hear it yelp and whine, and doing it more because the yelps get more frantic and panicked.

But I guess you'd have to be there to get why these two scenarios are very similar, and most of the people still on Herocraft are the Vets who are well-connected, well-networked, and well-resourced.

 

[j2gay]

Greets! So I've gathered some things from what I saw when players attempted to play here (from a fresh start / not returning player) and here's what I saw. I hope to fix these issues and would love insight on my suggested fixes. You can also use this as a place to express your dislike for something we have in so we can work on changing it. (T2 leveling rate will get better, promise!)


High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.

• Implement potion/buffs to victims to dissuade prolonged camping
• debuff murderers for prolong camping (slow/weakness/etc)

New players are unable to level without being killed.

• Implement a dungeon ticket system to instanced areas with no pvp for SET times (30mins / 1hour) - allowing players to effectively spend currency and RL cash to bypass PVP for only set periods.
• Turn off PVP in some dungeons during boosts. (I like this a little less than an instancing system)

New players don't understand the systems

• Get a focus group (or have guides) have most asked questions thrown to the players faces, faster.
• Simplify some things in the item system.

The systems are too complex.

• I'm at a loss to this one.

There is little high-end past max level.

• Push for Townships for high-end with political conflict to upgrade past certain points
• More Events
• Conquest points to promote pvpers camping areas and fighting each other.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations

• Remove OOC chat
• Heavily moderate other chats
• or
• Heavily moderate and freely give out mutes for repeated offenders

There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.

• Properly Implement the Admin Shop for players to sink coins into.

There's no reason to log in every day.

• Revamp the /dailybonus rewards so that streaks of logins will grant awesome items or titles.

Thanks for reading and please give me your feedback! I want Herocraft to be fun for everyone and to grow as a community!

High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.
I have two suggestions to combat this
1. Institute a police force/guard unit. You could start by conscripting the guides and proctors as the guard could fill these roles as well.
Guards would be a server staff playable class organized in a military like heirarchy. I would suggest Jr. Guard as an into/trial period class. Guard would be the rank of most of the unit. There would be a few senior guards to lead unit based combat.
A junior guard would be capable, if a skilled pvper, of soloing two max level tier 2 players comfortably, a guard three and a senior guard 4.
Members of the guard would be forbidden from initiating PvP except in response to campers, noob slayers, and bullies.
Penalty for abusing guard powers/responsibilities would be expulsion from the guard and temp ban(length tbd)

Some may be Leary about the idea of introducing an OP staff class for fear of abuse however I think the benefits will far outweigh the risks.
First the mere existence of the guard should reduce the duration of camping sessions in most cases. Small groups of noob campers (say 5 or Less) would be forced to move on from any one spot quickly for fear of provoking a response from the guard, introducing a new and potentially fun/interesting dynamic to alleviate some of the proclaimed boredom.
Secondly large groups of pvpers might intentionally provoke the guard, creating the potential for some epic mass PvP battles which should be fun for both members of the guard and those who provoke them
A third potential benefit is that towns that currently hide from PvP because they get creamed might be more willing to engage in battle if they believe help may come if the fight goes incredibly badly or devolves into a bullying session. Coincidentally this would also likely result in less bitching and whining in the chat, another problem you are trying to address.
There are other potential benefits as well but I won't get into all of them now for risk of rambling on. What I will say is that this system if done properly, and I would be glad to assist in seeing it done properly, offers benefit to most at the expense of few or none. The only people who might be angered by such a system are those who like to dish it out but can't take it, otherwise known as bullies, who you probably don't want constituting a large portion of the player base any way.

2. Bring back the whitelist. Why?
It creates a perception of exclusivity

It forces new players to learn about the server and it's mechanics before playing. Cutting out part of the learning curve and eliminating culture shock

The whitelist creates excitement and anticipation. While waiting to be accepted players learn about the server and begin planning what class they will play. They become invested in the server and will be more likely to stick out a few hard times. Will you reduce slightly the number of new players joining? Yes. However the number of new players who stick around will be higher as they will have already invested a good deal of time and energy.

New players are unable to level without being killed.
See suggestion 1 above. An additional role for the guard could be to lead leveling parties of new players, keeping them safe and creating a fun and rewarding experience for all involved. This would also increase player interaction/interdependence and contribute to a sense of community.

New players don't understand the systems & The systems are too complex
See suggestion 2 above

There is little high-end past max level
See suggestion 1 above. Giving veteran players new purpose will help keep them on the server. While a guard barracks at spawn would be a neat guards who earn a name for being exceptional could be recruited by towns, perhaps even receiving free housing and a salary. This could create competition between guards to be the best and competition between towns to attract guards and with them prestige another value added interest/dynamic.

Create an actual economy through meaningful crafting restrictions. This would require some class revamping to work properly. Here is how it could work:
Reinstitute lost soul with some added combat potency and a more restrictive crafting abilities
Upon mastering lost soul players can enter a one profession, combat or crafting. The current professions could be divided into two tiers, the combat classes could stay as is but made into professions. Upon mastering a tier two profession, combat or crafting, a player can coose another profession combat or crafting. This would increase time to mastery and give players a reason to keep logging in. Also it would give the crafting professions an actual purpose, making chest shops viable and creating another reason to login.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations
Mute occ by default for new players so you have to join it to see it.
Much swifter and stronger enforcement of existing chat rules is needed in all chats

There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.
An admin shop can help regulate an economy and set a basic price structure. It cannot fight inflation. There are two things needed to fight inflation:
1. Bring back the gold standard. Souls can stay at a substantial value reduction but the best way to keep the value of currency high is to base it on a finite commodity. Additional items could also be used such as diamond or iron but gold or emerald, having little actual use are the best candidates.
2. Create an actual economy as I suggested above. Currently on HC there is little need for money aside from towns, personal protections, and less. The only market trading that takes place is for convenience/laziness or preference I.e. purchase of luxury items that are nice to have but not necessary to the game. Whether irl or in an RPG an economy can only flourish when it is, if not necessary then highly favored, for individuals to trade the produce of their labour to others for the produce of another's labour(or its equivalent money price) in order to supply themselves with the necessities of life. Only when one individual either cannot produce certain necessary commodities, or others can produce them so much cheaper that it would be unwise to produce them at home, do economies grow and thrive. A strong economy raises prices and lowers inflation.

There's no reason to log in every day.
I won't harp on the need for an economy anymore except to say that a thriving chest shop is enough to give make many players login everyday. Also creating interdependence among players creates a feeling of responsibility to be present. If no one is counting on you why bother showing up.
All of these suggestions could be implemented with little or no modifications to the existing plugins mechanics.

If you have an interest in applying any of these suggestions and would like additional information on how they could work or how to set them up let me know. I have a pretty good working knowledge of the heroes plugin as well as most of the other plugins you are running.

IHC is billed as an RPG server. However right now it is more of a log in and do your own thing server, which can get quite boring and contribute to many of the issues you are having. Add some epic aspects so that everyone has a role an feels the need to fill it.

 

[Trazil]

@Maximillion_V_Midn

I can tell you right now that people do not waste thousands of souls on a random noob that just joins the server. So XARXU, you must have done something to piss people off. Your attitude is what is getting you into these situations. You have a constant "poor me", negative, bitching, whining/complaining and fairly annoying attitude almost all the time. Your ban/mute appeals have usually just continued complaints publicly after being told that is not the place, you've insulted basically the entire server a time or two, and your constant raging in o chat (Which at times was extremely funny... haha) was just either a horrid temper or pure trolling. For me it's surprising that you even bring up toxicity at all as you constantly started flame-wars, these points being said makes it very hard for me to take you seriously. You also didn't really contribute anything other than "Ban the offenders" for something that currently is not against any rules, if you were to put time into suggesting how to fix problems it would help a lot more.

@j2gay I'm only really going to comment on your idea of guards because I the maps I've seen pvp do good have done good in general. Lets say your guard idea (Which I think could work, but would be tricky) was implemented, the class(es) would need to be easy to use (Most of the "main pvpers" are the ones camping out of boredom) so that people that almost anyone can at the very least provide an entertaining 1v1. These guards would also need a skill that provides them with some kind of a kit (People don't like risking items). There would also need to be restrictions on how many guards could respond to a certain event in order to maintain a proportional and even fight etc. The problems with this are that if as you say they should be able to comfortably 1v2 vs t2 classes what would happen when it's only 1 person camping? If it's a legendary I'd say sure, give them a good 1v1, but just against 1 t2? That's a little much. You may want multiple "tiers" that are just given different scaling levels to provide FAIR gameplay. As long as it would actually be implemented and maintained well I wouldn't see a problem with it. Ask anyone, a fair fight is much better than camping out of boredom.

 

[Wild_Porygon]

Since you asked, I will tell you, same as the others in this thread are doing.

High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.
Ban the offenders. A week or so ought to get the message across. Bullies don't understand anything short of being slapped around themselves, and when they hold the highest ranks and buffs in the game....only a KICK or BAN will do.

I mean, hell, I am pretty new, in terms of how long I've been around, and how much in-game play I've seen, and all it took was defending a Newbie being ridiculed in Chat to be Spam-Bountied from then up to now.

New players are unable to level without being killed.
New players don't understand the systems

• I think this is less a matter of them not reading, or having comprehension problems....and more that they cannot apply what they have learned, due to the excessive camping, terrorism and hazing that the Vets do to a large majority of new players.

The systems are too complex.

• I agree with Kainzo, I don't think the systems are too complex; people just aren't being given an opportunity to truly LEARN the System.

There is little high-end past max level. (another example of behavior that makes Newbies turn back the way they came)

• No stake on this, as I haven't been left alone long enough to level that much, and everyone who offers me a place in their Town has got me out to the Wilderness, and killed my character.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations

• Chat is toxic, 90%+ of the time, because BEHAVIORS IN-GAME are toxic. PvP is unchivalrous, people use the Plugins in unethical ways (such as keeping Bounties on the same people, over and over, for MONTHS ON END, just to see them get upset <aka TOXIC players causing much of the above issues brought up above>)

There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.

• Another thing that sounds like a problem for people who have been on the server more than a handful of years, and have actually had an opportunity to harvest and keep gear and goods.

Here's a big one:

THE BOUNTY SYSTEM IS BEING USED TO HAZE & REPEL NEW PLAYERS

• I have seen cycling bounties on people who JUST joined the site. Did I mention I was one of those players, who has had cycling bounties on him since Fall of 2015?
  
• The Cooldown for Bounties should be something closer to 24 hours, to prevent abuse. This still allows toxic players to put a Bounty out each day, but at least newer/weaker players can look forward to actually PLAYING HEROCRAFT after the first Bounty is placed on us at login.

Want to know why you've heard less and less about this problem?

It's because most of the victims have quit. Nobody wants hear "Hey, I will show you where my town is", or "Hey, I can show you a good place to mine", or "Stupid noob. Consider yourself bountied".

What is there to do on Herocraft, when you're prevented from Mining, Leveling, Acquiring (and keeping) Soul Shards and really establishing yourself?

Where is the drive to do so, when you distrust ANYTHING people say to you, because everyone LIES just to get you to the Wilderness, then to stab you in the back for your gear, and drain you of your EXP.

Believe it or not, my situation IS NOT as the worst offenders are alleging (claiming I did some atrocious thing to warrant being bullied)...

I, as a newbie in Fall of 2015, joined Herocraft. After going through the Starter Area, READING ALL OF THE SIGNS AND INFORMATION, I went into the game...

And I got camped right outside of the Spawn...
And I got bountied, for defending another newcomer who was getting hazed....
And I *KEPT* getting Bountied, every day since...
And my aggressors' actions were justified, saying "it's because you complain", which in effect says "bullying is okay, if you muster the courage to speak on prior bullying prior".

Posts like this will get you camped more. Lets aggravate pvpers, get killed, complain heavily and spam their tells, then go ask to ban them in the forums. You'd be starting mass banwaves leaving 20 people on the server .

 

[j2gay]

@Trazil I would like to touch briefly on your comments about xarxu. This situation is an example of a breakdown in the system. It takes all types of players to keep a server going. They key is to manage them properly steering them away from negative behavior and towards activities that benefit the server. If a xarxu is, as you say pissing off the server in o chat, rather than just telling them to shut up, or harassing them, there should be a system that rewards other players for befriending them and teaching them how to survive on the server. If the guard system I propose, or something similar is implemented, a player engaging in that behavior could be muted, then receive a PM about proper chat decorum and an offer of guard assistance. If the guard offering assistance is already helping other players then they would have to go and collect the player. An adventure for all.

Now about balancing the guard classes. You bring some good points. Many or perhaps most of the main pvpers do not have a suitable temperament to fill the role of the guard. The guard classes would need to be fun and easy enough to play that someone with the right temperament but perhaps not a high PvP skill could still as a junior guard could still comfortably handle two t2s or a single legendary.
As for the worry about a guard response being too op for a single camper that is exactly the intent. A single PvPer who wants to camp would need to stay on the move to avoid the guard, introducing an element of strategy to ganker behavior and limiting the negative impact of camping on any one town, player, or geographical area.

Even large groups of pvpers that want to engage in negative behavior would need to be mindful of the guard and strategize around their presence in the same way organized crime syndicates work around the police irl.

There is a plugin that allows chests to give daily or weekly rewards that could be used to eliminate the gear problem for guard members. A chest could be placed in the guard barracks, in an area only accessible by the guard, that could dispense gear once a day. The guard gear could be a custom item specific to guards so they would not be able to give or sell it to their friends without being caught.

As for limits on how many could respond to a situation, if the guard is responding it's because they are trying to stop an undesirable behavior from continuing. Unless a group of skilled high level pvpers catches a lone guard or two out and about the guard would and should always have the edge. Asking them to limit the amount of responders would be like asking the police not to bring the swat team to a bank robbery. Basically if you don't want the guard to come kick your arse have your fun and then move on.

Camping and the other negative PvP or chat behaviors that are so rampant on HC nowadays have always been a presence on the server. However, when I first joined HC this behavior was balanced and counteracted by an equally large group of players and towns that would aid and assist new/weaker players. There was a balanced struggle between good and evil that made the server fun and interesting to play. They fear of being harassed was counteracted by the possibility of joining a safe community.

Over the years, mostly at the insistence of a vocal minority, changes have been made that benefited the evil forces (those engaging in negative behaviors) at the expense of the good forces (those engaging in positive behaviors). As the changes made it increasingly difficult to play as a positive force for good the players providing that service either left or switched sides. These changes where often made to satisfy what seemed to be the will of the community. However the community generally lacks the foresight to understand what the long term consequences of their current gratification may be. (Think history of Athens)

A server that is all fruit and flowers is boring for many and will have a low population. A server that is all sorrow and hardship is toxic and will have a low population. A balance must be maintained. HC had that balance once long ago. That balance was sacrificed and we are now seeing the results. Something must be done to restore the balance until enough good players either return or are developed to maintain it.

 

[radicater11]

@j2gay I just realized why I loved the server so much when I first joined. This balance is what made the world come alive, and it kept the gameplay fresh day after day. I don't know where the balance collapsed, but your gaurd idea could definitely bring it back into play.

 

[Irishman81]

@Trazil I would like to touch briefly on your comments about xarxu. This situation is an example of a breakdown in the system. It takes all types of players to keep a server going. They key is to manage them properly steering them away from negative behavior and towards activities that benefit the server. If a xarxu is, as you say pissing off the server in o chat, rather than just telling them to shut up, or harassing them, there should be a system that rewards other players for befriending them and teaching them how to survive on the server. If the guard system I propose, or something similar is implemented, a player engaging in that behavior could be muted, then receive a PM about proper chat decorum and an offer of guard assistance. If the guard offering assistance is already helping other players then they would have to go and collect the player. An adventure for all.

Now about balancing the guard classes. You bring some good points. Many or perhaps most of the main pvpers do not have a suitable temperament to fill the role of the guard. The guard classes would need to be fun and easy enough to play that someone with the right temperament but perhaps not a high PvP skill could still as a junior guard could still comfortably handle two t2s or a single legendary.
As for the worry about a guard response being too op for a single camper that is exactly the intent. A single PvPer who wants to camp would need to stay on the move to avoid the guard, introducing an element of strategy to ganker behavior and limiting the negative impact of camping on any one town, player, or geographical area.

Even large groups of pvpers that want to engage in negative behavior would need to be mindful of the guard and strategize around their presence in the same way organized crime syndicates work around the police irl.

There is a plugin that allows chests to give daily or weekly rewards that could be used to eliminate the gear problem for guard members. A chest could be placed in the guard barracks, in an area only accessible by the guard, that could dispense gear once a day. The guard gear could be a custom item specific to guards so they would not be able to give or sell it to their friends without being caught.

As for limits on how many could respond to a situation, if the guard is responding it's because they are trying to stop an undesirable behavior from continuing. Unless a group of skilled high level pvpers catches a lone guard or two out and about the guard would and should always have the edge. Asking them to limit the amount of responders would be like asking the police not to bring the swat team to a bank robbery. Basically if you don't want the guard to come kick your arse have your fun and then move on.

Camping and the other negative PvP or chat behaviors that are so rampant on HC nowadays have always been a presence on the server. However, when I first joined HC this behavior was balanced and counteracted by an equally large group of players and towns that would aid and assist new/weaker players. There was a balanced struggle between good and evil that made the server fun and interesting to play. They fear of being harassed was counteracted by the possibility of joining a safe community.

Over the years, mostly at the insistence of a vocal minority, changes have been made that benefited the evil forces (those engaging in negative behaviors) at the expense of the good forces (those engaging in positive behaviors). As the changes made it increasingly difficult to play as a positive force for good the players providing that service either left or switched sides. These changes where often made to satisfy what seemed to be the will of the community. However the community generally lacks the foresight to understand what the long term consequences of their current gratification may be. (Think history of Athens)

A server that is all fruit and flowers is boring for many and will have a low population. A server that is all sorrow and hardship is toxic and will have a low population. A balance must be maintained. HC had that balance once long ago. That balance was sacrificed and we are now seeing the results. Something must be done to restore the balance until enough good players either return or are developed to maintain it.

@j2gay I just realized why I loved the server so much when I first joined. This balance is what made the world come alive, and it kept the gameplay fresh day after day. I don't know where the balance collapsed, but your gaurd idea could definitely bring it back into play.

The idea of balance you mention is certainly correct, however creating strong classes to give to people to fight off campers is not the solution. This balance was achieved when we had towns/kingdoms who fought off the campers because it was fun. Kingdoms like LO/AD who could also step up and invite some of the noobs to a town and teach them how the server works - that's what they did for me and it worked out pretty well. We would see a noob or two getting killed a couple times by a large group, would gather our guys and fight them off, the campers would bring a full party and large team fights happen. In the end the noobs were also shown through recruitment chat or pm's the way to join up with us. It's a shame we no longer have anything like this. If we don't have a system that encourages players to work together towards large townships/kingdoms, along with a lack of players who are willing to help the new guys out, the server will always resort back to uncontrollable noob camping.

 

[radicater11]

The idea of balance you mention is certainly correct, however creating strong classes to give to people to fight off campers is not the solution. This balance was achieved when we had towns/kingdoms who fought off the campers because it was fun. Kingdoms like LO/AD who could also step up and invite some of the noobs to a town and teach them how the server works - that's what they did for me and it worked out pretty well. We would see a noob or two getting killed a couple times by a large group, would gather our guys and fight them off, the campers would bring a full party and large team fights happen. In the end the noobs were also shown through recruitment chat or pm's the way to join up with us. It's a shame we no longer have anything like this. If we don't have a system that encourages players to work together towards large townships/kingdoms, along with a lack of players who are willing to help the new guys out, the server will always resort back to uncontrollable noob camping.

The issue is, there is a lot more evil than good now, and even though Ybiewen is striving to grow large enough to do this, we can't even finish a section of our wall without having parties of 7 or more attack our guard party of 4-5.

 

[LightTheAbsol]

@Maximillion_V_Midn
I don't even know you but I know for sure that it sounds incredibly fun to camp you just because of these ridiculous forums posts.
The nail that sticks out gets hammered down, and wow do you stick out. I suggest toneing it down and acting like this is all a game. Which it is. We don't need to crucify players for killing people. Sorry if this sounds overly aggressive, I'm just a blunt person.

It's funny because a year ago, I would have totally agreed.

 

[Egorh]

I haven't seen many people go out of their way to hunt/camp a noob unless they are sitting at a town or waiting on a deathchest.

The main reason these noobs are dying all the time is that they end up in the wrong places, herogates. The herogates are completely free at the moment meaning any noob fresh on the server is more likely to run through one of those portals than down one of the four roads. Close to every noob I've killed was found by the herogate (maybe a few at some towns).

Simple solution make herogates cost some money so that noobs aren't able to immediately go to these 'hotspots'.