Suggestion Let's talk about Paladin

[Isaaclite]

So, I know that this has been addressed several times in other threads, but I'd like to know; are there any plans for "nerfing" paladin?
So here's a layout of paladin's current stats (I might be wrong for some)

Pros

• Best armor, and highest hp of all classes
• 5th best weapon damage
• Absolution=one of the much stronger/higher tier heals, because it heals a lot, AND removes dark effects (which i believe is the key to countering classes like necro)
• Has good CC (I'd say in top 5 or 6 of all classes)
• Divine stun OP
• Layhands=arguably one of the best skills of all time
• Within top 3 for team fight classes
• Within top 3 for 1v1ing (honestly, I feel like the only class that can take on paladin 1v1 is a bloodmage)
• Can reflect back ANY damage (shieldreflect)
• Uses mana and stamina
• even has a revive

(feel free to add to this list)

Cons

• Might run out of mana quickly (depending on wisdom), but even without mana, paladin still has it's bulkiness, weapon damage, and skills like bash and disarm (whereas some casters become completely useless)
• No ranged attacks, only melee

(feel free to add to this list)


Here's some suggestions I have on making paladin less op, while keeping a support/tanky feel to it:

• Lower weapon damage by 5 (paladin shouldn't be dealing that much damage...)
• make it so that absolution only heals 40% and removes dark effects if used on self. But if used on a teammate, then heals normally
• increase divine stun cooldown
• Reduce shieldreflect damage to 50%
• Give new skill, Holy Channel: For 6 seconds, 50% of damage that all allies within 8 + 0.1 blocks (per charisma) would take, gets channeled to the user instead. In addition, the user gets slowed by 30% during this time, but also takes 30% less damage from all sources
• Give new skill, Blowback: User charges into a single enemy target within 6 blocks, and knocks it up and away a few blocks. Deals small amount of damage (would be good as a supportive/defensive skill. In the case that a caster/ranged ally is getting targeted, the user can quickly charge in a short distance and push back the threat a short distance.)

• So about layhands.... I feel like this skill should not heal to full hp... but if this were changed, it would probably displease many people. So instead of changing the effect of the skill, I propose that we alter the costs. As of now (on the wiki it says) layhands only costs 250 mana... and is an instant cast.... We should make the mana cost require exactly 50% - 60% of the user's total mana, and stamina as well. Reason being, is that once a paladin uses layhands, he or she still has mana/stamina left over to use his/her other top tier skills. This shouldn't be how it is. Layhands should be a skill where once used, you would have to sacrifice using other skills, due to the costs. Right now, with its current cost of only 250 mana, its literally almost like free health. You just have to have alot of wisdom points, and mana regen won't be as much of a problem. Paladin should be a class in which you must choose carefully which skills to use, and keep careful watch of mana/stamina bars, in order to have enough for layhands later in a fight. There's been so many instances where I've seen a guy get killed by a paladin (test and live), and then they say somthing like, "Wow... you used layhands..."

Please consider these ideas, as I see paladins having an unfair advantage against most other classes.
Edit: And my initial question: [USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP] are there plans to nerf paladin soon?

 

[JupiterRome]

So, I know that this has been addressed several times in other threads, but I'd like to know; are there any plans for "nerfing" paladin?
So here's a layout of paladin's current stats (I might be wrong for some)

Pros

• Best armor, and highest hp of all classes
• 5th best weapon damage
• Absolution=one of the much stronger/higher tier heals, because it heals a lot, AND removes dark effects (which i believe is the key to countering classes like necro)
• Has good CC (I'd say in top 5 or 6 of all classes)
• Divine stun OP
• Layhands=arguably one of the best skills of all time
• Within top 3 for team fight classes
• Within top 3 for 1v1ing (honestly, I feel like the only class that can take on paladin 1v1 is a bloodmage)
• Can reflect back ANY damage (shieldreflect)
• Uses mana and stamina
• even has a revive

(feel free to add to this list)

Cons

• Might run out of mana quickly (depending on wisdom), but even without mana, paladin still has it's bulkiness, weapon damage, and skills like bash and disarm (whereas some casters become completely useless)
• No ranged attacks, only melee

(feel free to add to this list)


Here's some suggestions I have on making paladin less op, while keeping a support/tanky feel to it:

• Lower weapon damage by 5 (paladin shouldn't be dealing that much damage...)
• make it so that absolution only heals 40% and removes dark effects if used on self. But if used on a teammate, then heals normally
• increase divine stun cooldown
• Reduce shieldreflect damage to 50%
• Give new skill, Holy Channel: For 6 seconds, 50% of damage that an ally within 8 + 0.1 blocks (per charisma) would take, gets channeled to the user instead. In addition, the user gets slowed by 30% during this time, but also takes 30% less damage from all sources
• Give new skill, Blowback: User charges into a single enemy target within 6 blocks, and knocks it up and away a few blocks. Deals small amount of damage (would be good as a supportive/defensive skill. In the case that a caster/ranged ally is getting targeted, the user can quickly charge in a short distance and push back the threat a short distance.)

• So about layhands.... I feel like this skill should not heal to full hp... but if this were changed, it would probably displease many people. So instead of changing the effect of the skill, I propose that we alter the costs. As of now (on the wiki it says) layhands only costs 250 mana... and is an instant cast.... We should make the mana cost require exactly 50% - 60% of the user's total mana, and stamina as well. Reason being, is that once a paladin uses layhands, he or she still has mana/stamina left over to use his/her other top tier skills. This shouldn't be how it is. Layhands should be a skill where once used, you would have to sacrifice using other skills, due to the costs. Right now, with its current cost of only 250 mana, its literally almost like free health. You just have to have alot of wisdom points, and mana regen won't be as much of a problem. Paladin should be a class in which you must choose carefully which skills to use, and keep careful watch of mana/stamina bars, in order to have enough for layhands later in a fight. There's been so many instances where I've seen a guy get killed by a paladin (test and live), and then they say somthing like, "Wow... you used layhands..."

Please consider these ideas, as I see paladins having an unfair advantage against most other classes.
Edit: And my initial question: [USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP] are there plans to nerf paladin soon?

God the people making suggestions and not even looking at the class, (No offence) Reckoning can be considerd range and, Holy Channel - Basically Intervene? Yeah layhands is overpowerd as fuck, I mean certain classes like druid/bloodmage/Some Disciple But it usually takes them a while, and in that time (Yeah im sorta raging here) they can layhands to full, Divine stun For damage OR to heal, and repeat just kiting, and pretty much outlast until friends can come, can kill a paladin at least its not like paladin last map where a lvl 40 could take on masters without a problem
I think Paladin needs a nerf bad, I think I saw @TrueCorruptor talking about it once......

 

[Ahrall]

snip

First off thanks for actually posting good hard data instead of the mindless "pally too strong, nerf it now" that is becoming too prevalent.

On topic, Your suggestions are very solid. The things that the class really needs is a reduction in damage, and self healing. If we reduced the self healing value of absolution to around 50% and the base damage of the left clicks this would be a step in the right direction.
Divine Stun: Cooldown increase is in order, I could also see the warmup increased to 1 second. Playing ninja with blitz (same range as divine stun with only a slightly longer warmup) the extra half second makes all the difference in the world.
Layhands: Can't cast it on yourself. That's all the skill needs. It is the single most broken skill in 1v1s but is perfectly fine in group fights, so remove its potency in duels by making it so you can't cast it on yourself.

 

[Eldrylars]

So, I know that this has been addressed several times in other threads, but I'd like to know; are there any plans for "nerfing" paladin?
So here's a layout of paladin's current stats (I might be wrong for some)

Pros

• Best armor, and highest hp of all classes
• 5th best weapon damage
• Absolution=one of the much stronger/higher tier heals, because it heals a lot, AND removes dark effects (which i believe is the key to countering classes like necro)
• Has good CC (I'd say in top 5 or 6 of all classes)
• Divine stun OP
• Layhands=arguably one of the best skills of all time
• Within top 3 for team fight classes
• Within top 3 for 1v1ing (honestly, I feel like the only class that can take on paladin 1v1 is a bloodmage)
• Can reflect back ANY damage (shieldreflect)
• Uses mana and stamina
• even has a revive

(feel free to add to this list)

Cons

• Might run out of mana quickly (depending on wisdom), but even without mana, paladin still has it's bulkiness, weapon damage, and skills like bash and disarm (whereas some casters become completely useless)
• No ranged attacks, only melee

(feel free to add to this list)


Here's some suggestions I have on making paladin less op, while keeping a support/tanky feel to it:

• Lower weapon damage by 5 (paladin shouldn't be dealing that much damage...)
• make it so that absolution only heals 40% and removes dark effects if used on self. But if used on a teammate, then heals normally
• increase divine stun cooldown
• Reduce shieldreflect damage to 50%
• Give new skill, Holy Channel: For 6 seconds, 50% of damage that all allies within 8 + 0.1 blocks (per charisma) would take, gets channeled to the user instead. In addition, the user gets slowed by 30% during this time, but also takes 30% less damage from all sources
• Give new skill, Blowback: User charges into a single enemy target within 6 blocks, and knocks it up and away a few blocks. Deals small amount of damage (would be good as a supportive/defensive skill. In the case that a caster/ranged ally is getting targeted, the user can quickly charge in a short distance and push back the threat a short distance.)

• So about layhands.... I feel like this skill should not heal to full hp... but if this were changed, it would probably displease many people. So instead of changing the effect of the skill, I propose that we alter the costs. As of now (on the wiki it says) layhands only costs 250 mana... and is an instant cast.... We should make the mana cost require exactly 50% - 60% of the user's total mana, and stamina as well. Reason being, is that once a paladin uses layhands, he or she still has mana/stamina left over to use his/her other top tier skills. This shouldn't be how it is. Layhands should be a skill where once used, you would have to sacrifice using other skills, due to the costs. Right now, with its current cost of only 250 mana, its literally almost like free health. You just have to have alot of wisdom points, and mana regen won't be as much of a problem. Paladin should be a class in which you must choose carefully which skills to use, and keep careful watch of mana/stamina bars, in order to have enough for layhands later in a fight. There's been so many instances where I've seen a guy get killed by a paladin (test and live), and then they say somthing like, "Wow... you used layhands..."

Please consider these ideas, as I see paladins having an unfair advantage against most other classes.
Edit: And my initial question: [USERGROUP=38][USERGROUP=38]@Balance Team[/USERGROUP][/USERGROUP] are there plans to nerf paladin soon?

Some great suggestion and thought, but don't fall into the same trap that most suggestions and even some balance members do(including myself at times) and suggest new skills or coding changes to existing skills, other then very basic changes. As soon as implementing new skills that don't currently exist is brought up the suggestion loses a large percentage of it's weight. Remember balancing is only considered with the existing skill set.

Although all the suggestions other wise are workable, If everything is switched so quickly and without any direct comparisons to how it's more powerful then the other classes it's very easy to "over balance" and tilt the class the other way. Taking away it's damage reflection, leftclick damage, self healing, and it's ultimate skill all at the same time could leave the class trashed.
I have not done this enough over recent times, but something you can do to try to spice up and add value to balance post would be to add comparisons to the classes that are supposed to match the targeted class in some way, which can show how it would even the class out against the competing options.

What would be really awesome(am near impossible to do right) for everyone, is if there was a value system that was universally usable to value skills. One that would give higher value per its damage/healing and lower value per costs/cd/warmup. This exists to an extent in the HC balance, but it's so hard to consider the variables of a skill due to the value changing when mixed with other skills.
An seemingly impossible, but fun task to try to complete.

 

[Dwarfers]

Malikdanab and myself are testing paladin out to go through what is wrong/why people think it's strong.

So far - wiki info is wrong for some thing possibly.

Strike - Initial damage increases +1 per strength, Bleed Increases +2 per strength and the ticks are happening quicker than wiki says which should be a tick every 3 seconds for 15 seconds which is not what it is in game.

-More info to come-

Wiki for strike/layhands has been updated for current status of skills.

 

[Egorh]

I've commented multiple times about Paladin on other threads. The only problems are: Strike, and Divine Stun.

Increase cooldown on Divine Stun by 10-15s

Reduce the damage of Strike or fix it so the DOT goes for the duration it is suppose to be.

 

[Trazil]

I've commented multiple times about Paladin on other threads. The only problems are: Strike, and Divine Stun.

Increase cooldown on Divine Stun by 10-15s

Reduce the damage of Strike or fix it so the DOT goes for the duration it is suppose to be.

divinestun is like blackjack was for ninja except it may take 2-3 of them to kill you instead of 1

 

[pure_autism]

Or Layhands could be only useable on allies, making it actually used for support (not greedy nub Paladins) like it was intended.

 

[JupiterRome]

First off thanks for actually posting good hard data instead of the mindless "pally too strong, nerf it now" that is becoming too prevalent.

On topic, Your suggestions are very solid. The things that the class really needs is a reduction in damage, and self healing. If we reduced the self healing value of absolution to around 50% and the base damage of the left clicks this would be a step in the right direction.
Divine Stun: Cooldown increase is in order, I could also see the warmup increased to 1 second. Playing ninja with blitz (same range as divine stun with only a slightly longer warmup) the extra half second makes all the difference in the world.
Layhands: Can't cast it on yourself. That's all the skill needs. It is the single most broken skill in 1v1s but is perfectly fine in group fights, so remove its potency in duels by making it so you can't cast it on yourself.

Or Layhands could be only useable on allies, making it actually used for support (not greedy nub Paladins) like it was intended.

L2Read, Also Layhands is sometimes a really good skill and isn't just for "greedy nub paladins" like letting paladins win 3v1s.....

 

[pure_autism]

L2Read, Also Layhands is sometimes a really good skill and isn't just for "greedy nub paladins" like letting paladins win 3v1s.....

If two people came up with the same idea, it can't be a very bad one... So you think a support class should be winning a 1v3? I'm not sure if you're having mood swings or what, because all your other messages were about how Paladin should be changed and that Layhands is too strong.

I think I'm done with this thread, because your next answer will undoubtedly be some sort of trolly shit with the sole purpose of making me mad.

 

[JupiterRome]

If two people came up with the same idea, it can't be a very bad one... So you think a support class should be winning a 1v3? I'm not sure if you're having mood swings or what, because all your other messages were about how Paladin should be changed and that Layhands is too strong.

I think I'm done with this thread, because your next answer will undoubtedly be some sort of trolly shit with the sole purpose of making me mad.

Oh, I guess I should have worded that better, I agree, I cant say how much I agree with your guys's Ideas Im just saying not all paladins who use it on their self are Nubs

 

[Dwarfers]

So I played Paladin without DivineStun against a Ranger today and well, the Ranger beat me(I did have layhands on cd though that I couldn't use). I think Paladin can be alright if DivineStun were taken out, but this leaves the class sort of feeling empty which makes me suggest SoulFire be put in to replace DivineStun if taken out.

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

So I played Paladin without DivineStun against a Ranger today and well, the Ranger beat me(I did have layhands on cd though that I couldn't use). I think Paladin can be alright if DivineStun were taken out, but this leaves the class sort of feeling empty which makes me suggest SoulFire be put in to replace DivineStun if taken out.

Ranger shouldn't be beating pally, so your suggestion sounds like you want to cripple the class to allow a archer defeat a heavily armored tank?

 

[Isaaclite]

Ranger shouldn't be beating pally, so your suggestion sounds like you want to cripple the class to allow a archer defeat a heavily armored tank?

Isn't that kind of like saying everyone who wants to be a ranger should be a paladin instead? since paladin SHOULD be beating them 1v1 and they are definetly more useful in team fights (putting aside the fact that rangers can track). In addition, you can't really say that for ranger... ranger is extremely dependent on one's skill/ ability to aim. A really good ranger with a knockback bow could probably beat almost anybody 1v1, if they land most shots.

 

[MichaelRL]

So I played Paladin without DivineStun against a Ranger today and well, the Ranger beat me(I did have layhands on cd though that I couldn't use). I think Paladin can be alright if DivineStun were taken out, but this leaves the class sort of feeling empty which makes me suggest SoulFire be put in to replace DivineStun if taken out.

that ranger was me

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

Isn't that kind of like saying everyone who wants to be a ranger should be a paladin instead? since paladin SHOULD be beating them 1v1 and they are definetly more useful in team fights (putting aside the fact that rangers can track). In addition, you can't really say that for ranger... ranger is extremely dependent on one's skill/ ability to aim. A really good ranger with a knockback bow could probably beat almost anybody 1v1, if they land most shots.

FFS, no one gets it do they? No ranger should not beat pally 1v1, that is exactly what I am saying. Rangers roll in team fight is to kill squishy players. A ranger should easily face roll low armored targets, not tanks. Hitting arrows is not hard btw. I'm over people talking about how ranger is dependent on aiming. With explosive shot and aim shot, all it takes is a good kiter

 

[Jrr_]

FFS, no one gets it do they? No ranger should not beat pally 1v1, that is exactly what I am saying. Rangers roll in team fight is to kill squishy players. A ranger should easily face roll low armored targets, not tanks. Hitting arrows is not hard btw. I'm over people talking about how ranger is dependent on aiming. With explosive shot and aim shot, all it takes is a good kiter

need to aim to his explosive shot

 

[w0nd3rb0y]

No

need to aim to his explosive shot

not really

 

[Trazil]

No

not really

it is an aoe but it still has to have some aim

 

[jazza411]

It would be nice if people addressed the main issue instead of talking about ranger.

Personally I think it is blatantly obvious that paladin's are over powered and @Isaaclite has done a good job suggesting fixes. I just wanted to add a suggestion of divine stun imo should break on hit.

Lower weapon damage by 5 (paladin shouldn't be dealing that much damage...)
[*]make it so that absolution only heals 40% and removes dark effects if used on self. But if used on a teammate, then heals normally
[*]increase divine stun cooldown
[*]Reduce shieldreflect damage to 50%