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Lets talk about grief (new map)

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Belisarius1991

Legacy Supporter 3
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Mar 27, 2015
Location
Kentucky, USA
Also, what about the no-building within 100 blocks of a town rule? I don't know why but I have failed to mention this and as far as I remember, no one else has really mentioned it either. Forgive me if I am incorrect about that. I think that this was a good rule as well because it allowed towns room to expand and kept the surrounding area from being griefed. In this way, we kept the area around our town in nice, pristine condition. We even had some lovely builds (a dock and fantastic ship, a giant statue, and a secondary gate and garden area) all just outside of our town.

The 100 block safety area would be good for a few reasons then: 1) Keep area grief free and looking nice 2) Preserving area for future town expansion 3) Prevent malicious building just outside of town radius.

We rarely had to make any petitions regarding this issue. It was pretty well established that this was a no no and we didn't have but a few problems with this. Would it be that difficult to keep the "No building within 100 blocks of a town" rule?

I have already made my case regarding much of what is being said here in the past dozen posts or so. No need to rehash it all again.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
Also, what about the no-building within 100 blocks of a town rule?
From my discussion with @TimForReal this rule is being kept.

It's not supported by the plugin, as for the current map, so it continues to be down to townsfolk to be aware of what's happening in their vicinity. (Under townships 2.0 the plugin checked for another town in proximity before allowing a town creation to succeed, for example.) The 100 block rule applies to other towns as well as personal regions, unregioned homes, landscape alteration. And there is a precedence set for what happens if one region is expanding in the vicinity of others.

It would seem that activity within the 100 block area would be petitionable - that is if the players can't resolve the situation themselves.

But here we also have the suggestion that griefing is allowed - and this calls into question the 100 block rule, indeed. How to make sense of this?
 

kperkins1982

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
[QUOTE="we're also going to extend protections based on how many hours you play on Herocraft, so if you WANT to do a massive build, you will "level" up your block allotment to a cap.[/QUOTE]

I love this idea, because the type of person building massive structures/roads ect tends to play a lot. So it goes hand in hand.

One question, would this be a commodity?

Like if a heavy PVP guy that is online a whole lot but never builds wants to sell to an active builder

cause that would be pretty cool
 

joshtsai

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
May 23, 2012
I think this opens up a can of worms as to what is a work of utility or has architectural merit, and what is a building that can be greifed. I do pretty okay building, but some people may not like it (look at Indar and the surrounding PR's). More specifically, my daughters have built structures in Herocraft which are basic cobble and dirt houses. They would and have been pretty upset to log in and the structures they spent hours working on were greifed.

Allowing or disallowing greif based on architectural merit is a slippery slope.
I agree with you on the logical fallacy, what is architectural merit and who decides that? Mods? Players?

But then we look at structures built in herocraft, mainly the multitude of houses, usually made of cobble and dirt. When these are populated they are good, it means that people are living and learning how to play on the server. Then the issue turns to when those people leave, and abandoned the houses. Over time this leads to a landscape dotted with multitudes of structures. We can usually assume that these are abandoned, so the question becomes what do we do with these? I'm not saying you or I have answers to this just posing the question.
 

Watermelon_01

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Location
Hilo, Hawaii
I don't even have words for what you just said but i'll try to explain it to you as simply as possible even though I've said this multiple times throughout threads. With the map split in half and all of the PvPers already gone, that leaves the very few pvpers left with nothing to do. So when there's a bounty on a noob, they go after it for fun. You act like 'pvp asses' camp noobs for fun. I don't even understand what you mean by PvP loses players because there's no PvE? Like what are you even talking about lol. Full PvP will just increase PvP between towns and players because you can't just run and hide in PvE. If PvE players can't man up and join a town for protection or learn to fight back, there's no reason for them to bother being on the server.

tldr: Full PvP means more actual PvP and not noob killing
It seems that someone doesn't understand English. In my post I clearly said side but it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the pve and pvp halves of the map. "Side" in that case merely referred to pvp being one half of an argument and pve being the other.

Regarding everything else you said:

You understood what I meant about pvp losing players. They either will not join or leave almost immediately if they find out.

Blah blah blah pvp will be better because pvp will exist. This is not true. You are looking purely from a pvp standpoint. You state that pvp will increase because pve wont exist when really sometimes people just don't want to pvp at the time and just want to be on the server. We shouldn't punish people for wanting to play but not conforming to the meta that OTHER players set (Disregarding the fact that some people will get lucky and not be bothered). Not wanting to fight someone doesn't define that person as not being a man, it's the person that asks in the first place and wether or not he/she actually respects that that defines the man. Want proof? Look at all the
people that say that they like pvp but prefer pve because they like to build or because they like mining or farming.

Full pvp may mean that YOU will not camp noobs (at least all the time) but it certainly doesn't mean that other people will do the same. I don't doubt anyone that is already playing and is blood-thirsty for pvp. I doubt everyone else in the future that joins the server for that purpose. I don't care what you say about the good ol' days; not everyone is the same as the people you know/knew.
 

Watermelon_01

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Location
Hilo, Hawaii
I agree with you on the logical fallacy, what is architectural merit and who decides that? Mods? Players?

But then we look at structures built in herocraft, mainly the multitude of houses, usually made of cobble and dirt. When these are populated they are good, it means that people are living and learning how to play on the server. Then the issue turns to when those people leave, and abandoned the houses. Over time this leads to a landscape dotted with multitudes of structures. We can usually assume that these are abandoned, so the question becomes what do we do with these? I'm not saying you or I have answers to this just posing the question.
Maybe it can be like a real petition where people that complain about it sign off on why it should be removed and if it is checked and approved by someone up the totem pole, it can be removed by any player.
 

joshtsai

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
May 23, 2012
Maybe it can be like a real petition where people that complain about it sign off on why it should be removed and if it is checked and approved by someone up the totem pole, it can be removed by any player.
But the point of a changed system is to ease the amount of work on the mods. Kainzo wishes to have a more self-policing system.
 

Irishman81

Senior Staff
Guide
Architect
Balance Team
Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
It seems that someone doesn't understand English. In my post I clearly said side but it had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the pve and pvp halves of the map. "Side" in that case merely referred to pvp being one half of an argument and pve being the other.

Regarding everything else you said:

You understood what I meant about pvp losing players. They either will not join or leave almost immediately if they find out.

Blah blah blah pvp will be better because pvp will exist. This is not true. You are looking purely from a pvp standpoint. You state that pvp will increase because pve wont exist when really sometimes people just don't want to pvp at the time and just want to be on the server. We shouldn't punish people for wanting to play but not conforming to the meta that OTHER players set (Disregarding the fact that some people will get lucky and not be bothered). Not wanting to fight someone doesn't define that person as not being a man, it's the person that asks in the first place and wether or not he/she actually respects that that defines the man. Want proof? Look at all the
people that say that they like pvp but prefer pve because they like to build or because they like mining or farming.

Full pvp may mean that YOU will not camp noobs (at least all the time) but it certainly doesn't mean that other people will do the same. I don't doubt anyone that is already playing and is blood-thirsty for pvp. I doubt everyone else in the future that joins the server for that purpose. I don't care what you say about the good ol' days; not everyone is the same as the people you know/knew.
I know this probably isn't the place for the whole pvp vs. pvp argument, but I thought I would let you know what I think.

The beauty of full map pvp is that it actually brings the community closer together by pvp being a constant threat. Not having to worry about anything doesn't exactly drive people together for safety or community - but having the constant possibility of getting ganked will drive even new players to stick together, and possibly join/create a town. One of the major flaws with previous maps is that when camping noobs occurred, there were no towns to rush to their defense or even recruit them, as there have been in maps further back (L.O/A.D for example) and they would just give up and leave. I know noob camping is definitely a problem, coming from someone who was camped and recruited as a noob, but the community used to act out against those who would camp newer players.

It's going to be interesting with this map being complete pvp as opposed to the previous 2 (3?) maps including a ton of pve elements. You also mentioned that not everyone wants to fight, which is understandable, I've worked with a lot of people who don't enjoy pvping or are skilled in any way. The perfect union of pvp and pve occurs when there are some "pve" players and pvp players in the same town, all working together. AD in Haven actually had it pretty good system, with architects and people who didn't like to pvp surrounded by a group of skilled pvpers to defend them - I'm looking forward to seeing something like this emerge again.
 

Watermelon_01

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Location
Hilo, Hawaii
But the point of a changed system is to ease the amount of work on the mods. Kainzo wishes to have a more self-policing system.
I think a lot of us would like that idea but it conflicts with the griefing policy and frankly I don't think it is a good idea to let that one go.
I know this probably isn't the place for the whole pvp vs. pvp argument, but I thought I would let you know what I think.

The beauty of full map pvp is that it actually brings the community closer together by pvp being a constant threat. Not having to worry about anything doesn't exactly drive people together for safety or community - but having the constant possibility of getting ganked will drive even new players to stick together, and possibly join/create a town. One of the major flaws with previous maps is that when camping noobs occurred, there were no towns to rush to their defense or even recruit them, as there have been in maps further back (L.O/A.D for example) and they would just give up and leave. I know noob camping is definitely a problem, coming from someone who was camped and recruited as a noob, but the community used to act out against those who would camp newer players.

It's going to be interesting with this map being complete pvp as opposed to the previous 2 (3?) maps including a ton of pve elements. You also mentioned that not everyone wants to fight, which is understandable, I've worked with a lot of people who don't enjoy pvping or are skilled in any way. The perfect union of pvp and pve occurs when there are some "pve" players and pvp players in the same town, all working together. AD in Haven actually had it pretty good system, with architects and people who didn't like to pvp surrounded by a group of skilled pvpers to defend them - I'm looking forward to seeing something like this emerge again.
Someone that understands my point :D
 

barbas0l

Legacy Supporter 7
Retired Staff
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Guys, not all blocks are breakable during a siege. There is a soft block list, which is completely configurable. It will require you to build with that in mind is all. We've been talking about which blocks to keep/remove from that list, and have made a few changes already. Don't worry, the goal isn't to allow people to destroy your builds, but to provide incentive for builders and raiders to get creative through a new system.
 

Paul_Bakken

Obsidian
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Hmmm. Interesting discussion. Here's my 2¢ from a currently inactive player:

• Although I groan inwardly at the idea of an "all PvP, all the time" map, I get it. It is certainly worth trying, if only for the fact that the current arrangement isn't really working as well as it could.

• I used to be one of those crazy road-building hermits. I built a lot of roads on Bastion. Not so much on the current map, though. That was due to a combination of constantly being interrupted by trigger-happy PvPers and becoming more busy IRL. I am definitely what would be considered a "casual" gamer. These days, I rarely, if ever, can find a whole day to just chill and play MineCraft. My discretionary leisure time is limited so, to me, it is valuable and I invest it carefully.

• And that segues to my main point: At the end of the day, the most valuable thing a player has is their own time. For example, if I happen across a pile of sweet dropped loot, only to be ganked seconds later and have it taken away from me -- well, I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about that. Regardless of the in-game value of the loot, my investment of personal time was minimal. Easy come, easy go. But if I spend several hours building a stretch of road, only to log on the next day and find it ripped to Hell -- rest assured, I will rage. I might even go so far as to cuss people out in chat. I know that sounds mild and silly, but that's about as outwardly demonstrative as I get on HeroCraft.

• Ultimately, I don't care what form it takes, but I would want some assurance that there will be some way that I can invest my personal time into this server that can't be arbitrarily taken away or destroyed by an ill-bred vandal. And since the core joy of playing MineCraft is building cool stuff and manipulating the virtual environment, that means some way to protect builds. Yes, LWCs are awesome for storing stuff and protecting it, but that isn't what I mean. And, yes, I suppose whatever in-game currency we end up with would be a "safe" repository of value, but that isn't what I mean either. Protecting builds is the key.

• Accordingly, regarding the proposal to allow "non-rollback," no-recourse griefing of so-called soft blocks? F*ck that. F*ck that long, deep, and hard. Soft blocks make things look nice. Soft blocks include some of the best ornamental options. And this gets back to the whole "investment of time" thing: Few people will bother building aesthetically pleasing structures if said structures can easily wrecked by other players. As in, "Oh, that ornamental fascia you spent an entire day building? Yeah, it's gone and you are SOL, Dude." Unless modified, the current proposal will likely result in a proliferation of primarily utilitarian structures. Bleh.

• I am not one to criticize without offering an alternative, however. You want structures and towns to be "siege-able?" Super. Then why not require people to actually use siege-like tactics? For example, instead letting attackers dig through city walls in a few seconds, make them use siege ladders to get over the walls. That is, during siege times, the BUILD perms are altered to allow anyone to place ladders.

• For another example, allow placement of TNT (a custom item version, not the generic stuff) during sieges. Maybe the Engineers and Miners can place something called "siege TNT," and they get a very limited amount to use during a siege. Code a new skill called "Sapper" perhaps, which creates 1-2 Siege TNT in their inventory. The skill can only be used during siege time in a siege zone. The cool down period is such that it can be used only once during a siege period, and any unused Siege TNT disappears at the end of the siege. That would make breaching walls possible, but would limit the amount of damage to people builds. It would also force attackers to put some thought and planning into their siege strategy, instead of just Zerg-rushing and indiscriminate wall-bashing.

• I have also followed the discussion about town protection zones and the customary "no-build" zone of 100 blocks around towns and homes. If the new area protections are based off of the placement of special blocks, why not add both functions to the same block? Suppose that "Entry level block A," when placed, protects an area 25 blocks out from the protection block in all four cardinal directions, up to the skybox, and down 25 blocks (or down to Y=30, whichever is fewer). Additionally, the block would create a buffer zone an additional 50-100 blocks out from the main protection area, in which NO ONE (including the block owner!) can build or destroy. Maybe some limitations, such as allowing the mining of exposed ores so that players can still run the caves in buffer areas. Protected areas always trump buffer zones, so a town's expanding buffer zone couldn't wipe out a solo player's little home. Moreover, the way to expand protected areas would either be organically, by placing additional claim blocks at the very edges of one's protected area, or transitionally, by removing a low-level claim block and then quickly replacing it with an upgraded version.

• Anyway, I apologize for the meandering wall of text. I am an irredeemable PvE player, but I am trying to find a way to accomodate the aspirations and play style of the PvPers, while retaining the possibility for people like me to still have fun, too.

tl:dr; If y'all could kindly dial it back on wrecking my stuff, I'd be much obliged.
 

0xNaomi

Legacy Supporter 6
Retired Staff
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
@Paul_Bakken Yeah, you were the kind of road building maniac I was thinking of, just forgot the name.

In terms of soft blocks, that only effects regions during sieges. This doesn't alleviate the issue, but you wouldn't wake up to find it destroyed, you'd log in to have someone promptly siege you, then destroy it (assuming you logged out at it).

At any rate, the word has already been changed once, so strong opinions can probably change it further.
 

barbas0l

Legacy Supporter 7
Retired Staff
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
One option for build only style players is a creative server off the main hub. Not saying anyone who builds for aesthetics should just play creative, but it's an option. I've been a long time builder on HeroCraft, and sought to protect builds while spicing up the server activity options.

I can see where people are coming from worrying about their builds, but there's two sides to every coin. I've even heard a few people complain about random world builds ( @Paul_Bakken your roads specifically), and both players are technically right in their argument. There's more than one way of handling the situation, but I think this approach brings a middle of the road solution. Players can build anywhere they like, but only Claims are truly safe. Does this mean players can't build roads across the map with it being protected because of a few signs? No, it will require maintenance and safe-guarding. Your personal claim, or town claims, will however be completely protected. The only caveat will be sieges. During a siege (which requires the player to be online and in the claim) blocks on the configurable Soft Block list will be temporarily breakable. It's a pretty straight forward system that will require tweaks along the way. There is no such thing as a perfect system, but changes and risks have to be taken for progress to happen.

The main drive behind a lot of this is the ability to configure an up to date plugin. We've been using half-finished systems for a long time, and it's created a lot of headaches. This system is finished, has been used by many of our staff, and won't require a few people coding to keep it working. I like the ladder and tnt ideas for sieges, but it would require a good bit of coding for either(detecting online/offline players, regions, etc.).
 
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kperkins1982

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
One option for build only style players is a creative server off the main hub. Not saying anyone who builds for aesthetics should just play creative, but it's an option.
.

Some players, myself included, enjoy both pvp and building. I would be unhappy on a creative server with no pvp.

I want to build pretty roads, and then have people run across them in search of a fight.

When they get where they are going, I hope they kill and maim and steal. But don't make any pot holes on their way there.
 

barbas0l

Legacy Supporter 7
Retired Staff
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Which is why I made that clarification, it's just an option. I'm not sure on what the final rules regarding grief will be, which is the purpose of these talks, but the current protections have been too great IMO. Some of the questions I've been pondering the different sides of are:

What all is considered Grief?
Do you allow players to destroy anything that isn't itself protected?
Do you enforce no grief rules, and ban/kick/warn anyone who leaves a single block changed?
Where do you draw the line, and how do you go about enforcing it?
We want a self-policing system that protects all players play styles, but what about the judgement calls?
 

spiralz

Obsidian
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Which is why I made that clarification, it's just an option. I'm not sure on what the final rules regarding grief will be, which is the purpose of these talks, but the current protections have been too great IMO. Some of the questions I've been pondering the different sides of are:

What all is considered Grief?
Do you allow players to destroy anything that isn't itself protected?
Do you enforce no grief rules, and ban/kick/warn anyone who leaves a single block changed?
Where do you draw the line, and how do you go about enforcing it?
We want a self-policing system that protects all players play styles, but what about the judgement calls?

-Grief is most commonly referred to as the act of breaking or placing blocks/water/lava in order to incite grief on the victim. In addition to this, I define it as placing or breaking blocks in the wild that serves no purpose or a very temporary purpose and not fixed afterward (cobble-fucking-pillars).

-Pros to allowing grief:
  • 12-year-olds get to giggle for a bit.
  • Less work for staff (I still think there should be an Anti-Grief team, and it would be even easier for this team with the restorenature tool)
-Cons to allowing grief:
  • Pissed off players who spent a lot of time building a cool looking settlement that cannot fit within their claiming regions.
  • Ugly environment littered with abandoned griefed structures from said pissed-off players.
  • The usual extremely ugly cobble/dirt/sand pillars/bridges that will once again make this awesome map look not-so-awesome.
  • Nice looking player built bridges/roads riddled with holes of blocks broken/stolen.
  • A server with a grief-allowing reputation.
-As far as grief enforcement for very small instances, leave those to the player to fix/deal with themselves. If it is a massive scale such as hundreds of cobble blocks spread out in/around someones well-built structure, ban da bitch.

-Something I wish I would have seen more of is server auto-messages stating that griefing is illegal. Would be even better if it were a flashy message instead of the typical easy-to-miss small yellowish message.

Keep the rule that if you break a piece of someones build, you must replace it.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
To clarify some aspects of sieging, this is my understanding:
  • Chests/doors etc will be set to open as the standard condition. This means if the siege is successful, chests will be raidable – they just won't be openable by anyone while the siege is occurring.
This appears to be the bare bones of the siege process:

1. Raider uses /siege command which commences the siege
  • Soft blocks are now breakable
  • Chests are locked, blocks can't be placed, players can't drop items
2. Siege is won
  • Chests are now accessible again, raiders and town members can access them
  • Town members can again place blocks
3. Raiders are ejected (ported out) from the town:
  • After X amount of time - how long?
  • X distance from the town - how far?
And on the topic of town security when adding new members:
  • New players can be corralled by adding them to a subregion but not to the full town region.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
Thanks for the keeping the discussions going, I am reading all of these replies and taking it in.

I think we will keep mindlessly griefing illegal...
I think this looks like it might have been an answer on the topic. However I'd like to summarize what I've heard said in this thread:

This is what I’m hearing Kainzo is saying he wants:
  1. Block protection – a system for protecting towns (groups of players) and personal regions (individual players), that enables supporters to claim larger areas
  2. Survival experience – back to a stronger pvp focus, enabling raiding of towns and personal regions
  3. Attractive terrain – terrain that’s enjoyable for ongoing players, attractive for new players, and promotes map longevity
  4. Community empowerment – want to move toward the community running itself to a greater extent
  5. Less petitions for staff to manage - grief-related, build claims etc.
This is what I’m hearing the community is generally accepting of:
  1. That the “HC way” they understand is: (1) I’m not safe (2) My valuables in chests aren’t safe (3) My build IS safe.
  2. A strong pvp focus for the new map
  3. Mechanisms that enable raiding – ie sieging, doors/chests being openable etc.
This is what I’m hearing the community is concerned about if the griefing prohibition is lifted:
  1. No safety net to protect the community from troll griefers
  2. No protection for public structures such as roads, iceways, and unregioned but nice builds
  3. Ugly landscapes that turn players off – both new and established
  4. Not having the freedom to build “nice things” because of the perception that anything unregioned is fair game
  5. Not being able to build “nice things” because details in soft blocks will be destroyed by sieging.
  6. Discouraging conditions for new players who find their buildings griefed before they can figure out how to region them.
It seems there is strong community concern that griefing remain illegal.

Regarding the impact of sieging on builds, the current position is that blocks broken during a siege will not be considered griefing. One option might be for broken blocks to regenerate. However this might not be possible. This is because GriefPrevention, being light on resource use, does not keep logs of block changes, so there might not be anything to roll back with.

As wooden features (logs, steps, doors) are frequently used in build decoration and would be fiddlely and discouraging for town members to continually replace, and colored wool is also used as a feature, it would address player concerns if these were removed from the soft block list, retaining dirt, grass, long grass, cobblestone, gravel, sand, and snow.
 

Gwiz221

Gold
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
If dirt is considered a soft block, does that mean that traditional airlocks and chest dirting is going to be replaced by hard blocks like, say, stone bricks? Townspeople always find a way to protect themselves just that little bit more.
 
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