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Lets talk about grief (new map)

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JacobBurkey

Portal
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
I don't feel like reading through a ton of walls of texts to see if this already has been said but so far I haven't seen it, me and my friend read pretty extensively on the new plugin about the sieges and as far as we understand the 'siege' does not start until
a. Mayor is killed,
b. Mayor/Defender logs out,
c. the defenders flee from their region/go far out away from it.

The defenders can also win the siege if
a. The attacker is killed
b. The attacker gets bored and leaves
c. Attacker logs off
So everyone saying that they're going to just break in and steal/greif/kill you when a siege happens we're almost positive as far as we've read you cannot done that until you've won the siege first. If need be I can post our convo of him explaining a ton of it which will clear up stuff too.

Id like to see the following blocks added to the list of blocks that we're allowed to steal/ grief during a raid;

+Bookcases
+Pistons/ Dispensers/ droppers/ hopper's
+Enchanting tables
+Potion stands
+Gold/ Iron/ Diamond/ Emerald/ Redstone/ Lapis and even Coal blocks (I am aware half of these are already on the list of allowed blocks)
+Packed ice
+Heads (both player and mob heads)
+[Place holder]
This is such a dumb idea I'm not even gonna bother explaining why..
 
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Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
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Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Agreed. I may end up leaving also depending upon how this works. This has me very concerned.

I'm completely ignorant as to how the GP system works. But for one it seems like it's pretty much impossible to protect something like a road that you've built. I'm not sure how high/low the cost will be to set up these regions but if it's a thousand or so... you can bet there will be pkers who camp beginners, not only killing them but destroying their makeshift base just for the kicks. (not saying all pkers are this way, but you guys know some people would do this)

Before living on your own was sorta difficult but it was possible. Now it seems impossible. If you don't have a gp up and someone finds out where you live, they will probably kill you (which is fine), steal your stuff (also fine) and then destroy your house. (not fine)

I don't want to be only to create one structure and that be it. I love wandering around and finding neat places for something like a pool, a tent, whatever. Currently most would see such a thing and leave it be because it's not worth the hassle to destroy that stuff. But if it's allowed then you can bet you'll get some people that will go around with that as their prime objective.

My favorite part of herocraft was exploring around and seeing the things people have built, like Jonsoons unfinished dock. I know the current system of how to claim land or request to take over something is a bit tedious and quite a bit of work for mods/admins, but I loved this system.
The reason why I created this thread now and not after the map has been released was to get community feedback on the possible changes.

Nothing is in stone for that at the moment, so I really like reading people's feedback on things because it gives good perspective on things.
Not trying to be a douche as I haven't played long, but this all sounds like a rather lazy, quickly thrown together system and wipe in general.
Sorry you feel that way, but no, it was not thrown together.
Townships 3.0 has been decomissioned because of latency issues and it being poorly written and maintained, our alternatives are Factions, Towny or GriefPrevention.

While I agree GriefPrevention isnt the "end all" answer for griefing or town management, we do have Townships 4.0 in the works and it will hit testing soon.
 

JacobBurkey

Portal
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
If blocks are breakable/greifable during the siege then it's as simple as doing what @Dakinara said and make it so blocks are rolled back to the way they were before the siege happened. That way big towns won't just demolish smaller sized towns.

Sorry you feel that way, but no, it was not thrown together.
Townships 3.0 has been decomissioned because of latency issues and it being poorly written and maintained, our alternatives are Factions, Towny or GriefPrevention.

While I agree GriefPrevention isnt the "end all" answer for griefing or town management, we do have Townships 4.0 in the works and it will hit testing soon.
What about towny being brought back? It's very simple and effective for a township plugin and it worked very well back in older maps. As far as I know there was no problems with it and it was great for new players to make groups and start off a town with it since it wasn't confusing to make a town. I'm assuming you like Greifprevention over towny obviously and want to try it out, so what if GreifPrevention doesn't work out well or isn't liked is there a possibility of towny returning?
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
The two major issues I have with the idea have been voiced, but I will use my own to reiterate them aswell.

Griefed buildings and structures.

At this point no builds will be able to be built with soft blocks. Any player that sieges will have free reign to run through the defending players build and destroy every soft block he can find, leaving a destroyed and griefed personal structure that the player has to rebuild with his own time and materials everytime he is sieged by this malicious player. The "griefer" if more powerful will be able to ignore the defender and run through his house destroying everything available without anything to stop them.

Possible solution for this would be to turn on a roleback for the siege if such an option exists. If no roleback option exists, then any blocks designated "soft blocks" will not be used in any builds of importance, removing them from the creative process.

The removal of personalization to the world.
With all griefing legal outside of your claims, townships would be griefed by teams of players modifying and destroying the territory right outside of their towns. There has been talk with friends of making a township with buildings on pillars over lava but anything that reaches outside of our (or below) township such as the lava that would give the town it's style would be griefable whether it's at below out township or to the sides.

Large builds such as the great blue dragon of Bastion, or the awesome port city of Drakenvale(sp) of Aegis, or the custom cleaned landscape created around player houses and cities.

Want to build a house on a mountain? Better not, because when you come back online you may find your claim floating in the air with the lands destroyed around the edges. Want to build something awesome for the world to see, you are limited to your claim, and if that's not big enough then you might as well not even try. No roads will be built between allies, no underground subways, no skybridges, nothing because it's just to risky and easy for someone to destroy it.

The only possible solution for this is to still have claim abilities outside of the protected claims. I myself would not build near lava without these protections, because I know for a fact that I will login one day to find all the lava just outside the claim to have been turned into obsidian and it will be my responsibility to manually repair it and hope the person does not come back again.

With the new network and being able to check last online for players it will be easier to check claims as a player which would eliminate the need for an admin/mods approval.

My two desires for our future,
  • Make all standard(Stone/Earth/Lumber/Glass/Wool) building blocks as softblocks, and set them to auto regenerate when when the siege is over. Either setup GP so that destroyed soft blocks don't drop, or if that is not possible, add the rule that player exploit farming resources from sieging will be punished.
  • Allow players to claim structures by themselves. They are still required to make a sign claiming the build, but can self police the fact the other player is inactive. The claiming player would check the current owner's last login date using the new tools, and if it's past X days they can remove the original sign and place their own. Mods would still be involved if the build/structure is of unknown ownership, but this would simplify the system and all the mod would have to do would be find the owner and check last date for the claimant.
 
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Nashah

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Location
California
The reason why I created this thread now and not after the map has been released was to get community feedback on the possible changes.

Nothing is in stone for that at the moment, so I really like reading people's feedback on things because it gives good perspective on things.
Thank you for that. From what I've gathered from everyone I've spoken to about this, well no one seems to really like the idea of things being griefable (not referring to sieges here). A few have mentioned how they don't see themselves playing for long if this ends up being the case.



If blocks are breakable/greifable during the siege then it's as simple as doing what @Dakinara said and make it so blocks are rolled back to the way they were before the siege happened. That way big towns won't just demolish smaller sized towns.
Agreed. A bigger concern for me is that personal regions can be sieged also. It wouldn't take long for a group of ten to ravage a 27x27x27 area. So long as blocks respawn after the siege I have no complaints.
 

Watermelon_01

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Location
Hilo, Hawaii
I don't know if anyone realizes already by block re spawning needs to be a thing otherwise sieging can't be a thing. If it is sieges once and doesn't regen then sieging after that is basically loot the chests and leave if nobody repairs them.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
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in regards to people who are saying " But I cant protect X or build Y " --- we do have the possibility to allow for incremental increases, where every day you get X more blocks protected, so over time, you would have a MASSIVE area.

The more you play, the bigger your claim, but im not 100% sure the numbers behind that yet, its very powerful.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
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Location
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So then why are you wiping now? Nobody wants to play on a server till December (if this new townships thing is even done by then) and then have all their stuff switched over to a new town system, what are you gonna do, wipe again? Also from my experience with older servers, GriefPrevention is like a worse version of Factions.
Change begets change.
Declaring "no one wants to play on a server until X month" is a self-serving statement, I don't believe that's correct.

The system will work for what we want, it just has some kinks to hammer out and is the entire reason why I'm requesting feedback from the community.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
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Ok, I feel you.
and i will say this, we're a production server. We've been running for 5 years now (come Oct). That's a feat of strength for ANY gaming community. Unfortunately, we arent in a perfect world, if we were to wait for the perfect situations to arise before pushing content, things may never, ever get released.

While I'm all for the polished release systems of WoW, unfortunately, we are in a much more fluid and complex environment and we value user feedback much more highly than WoW does ;)
 

Trazil

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
I would actually like to see towny with pvp forced on for all towns, there are ways to siege and conquer with the plugin and it also does allow Kingdoms-something that I really do miss. I've seen the plugin work on other servers that I really enjoyed.
 

Belisarius1991

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Location
Kentucky, USA
My two desires for our future,
  • Make all standard building blocks softblocks, and set them to auto regenerate when when the siege is over. Either setup GP so that destroyed soft blocks don't drop, or if that is not possible, add the rule that player exploit farming resources from sieging will be punished.
  • Allow players to claim structures by themselves. They are still required to make a sign claiming the build, but can self police the fact the other player is inactive. The claiming player would check the current owner's last login date using the new tools, and if it's past X days they can remove the original sign and place their own. Mods would still be involved if the build/structure is of unknown ownership, but this would simplify the system and all the mod would have to do would be find the owner and check last date for the claimant.

I agree for the most part. However, I think we should be fairly selective in which building materials can be labeled as soft-blocks. I would like to have some ability to limit access points within my town. If all "standard" blocks are treated as soft, it will be almost impossible to keep players from simply mining straight into the middle of your town. I'm not suggesting we create impenetrable cities, but that if there are only a handful of hard blocks, defense will be untenable. Cities should be able to control entry points without having to use obsidian everywhere.

The rollback idea some are mentioning is an interesting one and I like the sound of it.
 

Eldrylars

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Location
Dragon through ...
I agree for the most part. However, I think we should be fairly selective in which building materials can be labeled as soft-blocks. I would like to have some ability to limit access points within my town. If all "standard" blocks are treated as soft, it will be almost impossible to keep players from simply mining straight into the middle of your town. I'm not suggesting we create impenetrable cities, but that if there are only a handful of hard blocks, defense will be untenable. Cities should be able to control entry points without having to use obsidian everywhere.

The rollback idea some are mentioning is an interesting one and I like the sound of it.

I coulda/shoulda been more specific. By standard building materials I was referring to real world. Stone, Lumber, Wool, Glass. Leaving metals and anything outside of those "normal" blocks as solid, including obsidian.
 

Carbash

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Well, i see some issues. Mainly the fact that we are going from almost all pve to extreme pvp. That will be offputting for newer players. People join towns to feel safe because every map before now that has been the case. I mean whats the point of having a town if 1. what you build can be destroyed and 2. All loot you gather (besides lwcs?) can be stolen. Thats really all there is to minecraft besides the pvp aspect. If you take away building and hoarding loot you might as well just make a giant arena for a server and say have at. I dunno, i welcome change, but i feel this might be the wrong direction.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
I've just finished my first coffee for the day and am starting on this thread. So I don't have a picture of what's being said as yet.

For a start, this is the DEFAULT list of "soft" blocks that would be breakable as a result of siege:

- DIRT
- GRASS
- LONG_GRASS
- COBBLESTONE
- GRAVEL
- SAND
- WOOD
- WOOL
- SNOW

"Default" meaning it could be adjusted if needed.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
Erm, I would like to find out what "WOOD" includes here - It could include logs, planks, steps, half blocks, wooden doors, trapdoors? Needs investigation.
 

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Erm, I would like to find out what "WOOD" includes here - It could include logs, planks, steps, half blocks, wooden doors, trapdoors? Needs investigation.
I assume it means Log. Usually Wood = Log. Usually.
If you want we can test some of this out.
 

JacobBurkey

Portal
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Towny is probably one of the worst town plugins I have ever used in my life, in my opinion.
You don't explain anything you say, you're just being completely negative about every topic. In YOUR opinion, every township plugin seems to be bad. How is towny bad? It's simple, easy to get into, it does it's job and isn't confusing to new players.
Well, i see some issues. Mainly the fact that we are going from almost all pve to extreme pvp. That will be offputting for newer players. People join towns to feel safe because every map before now that has been the case. I mean whats the point of having a town if 1. what you build can be destroyed and 2. All loot you gather (besides lwcs?) can be stolen. Thats really all there is to minecraft besides the pvp aspect. If you take away building and hoarding loot you might as well just make a giant arena for a server and say have at. I dunno, i welcome change, but i feel this might be the wrong direction.
Your join date means you played on Bastion...do you not remember bastion at all? Do you not remember how huge of a success full pvp was? and the maps before that that were full pvp? 'extreme pvp' that's the way it had always been. This was a hardcore server. Do you want a full pve map so people can sit there and grind and get bored and leave? Full PvP is going to bring back a lot more world map pvp and team fighting. That's the reason some of the old PvP groups are coming back for this map.(or so I've heard) The only '1' and '2' points you made aren't even finalized yet, and while I don't agree with some changes, I do not agree with you at all on full pvp being a wrong direction for the server as it had clearly been the right direction for the server back when it was full pvp.


edit:
we are going from almost all pve
lolwut
 
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Teslanut

TNT
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Location
New York
I've read the Grief Protection and sieges and I think in theory it's a cool idea, it will allow for more PVP but I've got some deep concerns with the grief aspects of it. I would only be okay with it if there was a way for my region to rebuild itself, or for certain blocks to be protected from grief. Really all that needs to be grief-able are soft blocks, doors, glass, ect. if the point of this is to gain access. to be honest, at this point I'm thinking i'll just drop 8 LWC's and call that my home.
 
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