[Kingdom] Order of the Sun [OS] [Neutral/Good]

[xexorian]

Let me start this response with a big, "sigh."

leftovers5 & LO never ran into any issues because they actually put in a little effort and used a reasonable amount of their pylons.

I talked to Leftovers5. (A player, mind you.) He said their pylons were 9o-100 blocks apart, as ours about are right now. Yet, we were denied.. and as far as I can tell, "Pylons are too far apart" based on our actual response from administration. We as a group consider it was a vague and not clear answer as to where and how to fix our "issue".

Surprisingly some of us have shit to do IRL now I've been away since early friday and you've tagged me about 4-5 times since then bitching that I'm not doing anything. Now if you're done being an entitled little shit I'm still away till Monday night so leave me out of this bitching.

This is irrelevant, and that's not very professional or nice to say. We're asking questions on how to solve our problems with you and Alator. How are we bitching? Why is your attitude towards me so hostile, and since when? If you don't have time to help, don't you think it smarter to just tell us so in the first place so we can look to someone who can and is willing?

On a side note you're the one being lazy here.

I'll just go ahead and say:

and you've tagged me about 4-5 times since then bitching that I'm not doing anything.

I'm going to comment that it is not ME working our kingdom pylons, it's our citizens in the KINGDOM.

You constantly complained about having to build actual pylons during our conversation and kept asking if you could put up dirt pillars instead, now even after all of that you've put in little effort again considering you've only got 26 pylons out of your allotted 50.

Further yet, I didn't ask you for dirt pillars, I told you we wanted to put up placeholders, markers, aka stone slab pillars with signs on them so we could get the region done then begin* building kingdom-sized walls.
edit: for clarity.

If you would stop trying to cut corners you would be perfectly fine and not run into any problems.

We weren't trying to cut corners from the start, we stated that the rules weren't clear and didn't give us a proper guideline to follow, and now you're acting like this to us about it. You never replied to our conversation privately and we didn't care about the pylon count. As I recall, you said we couldn't place them at city size for our TOWN sized townships, so we cut some out. We had 41 originally which is why I have 41 dragon eggs.

If the rules you guys made up were so specific that a few blocks difference, (standing outside the towers, vs. standing at their dead top center 20+ blocks in the air) would matter for the definition of the rule, then it needs to be stated and clarified.

Alator I'm sick of this back and forth stuff, and you guys not explaining anything properly to any of us involved. I, for one, am not going to sit around and make assumptions about how you two separate people assume we should do it. Please if you would like to very kindly explain to us how to do these properly, and how we can resolve our issue we would be more than happy get started on it and get back to you when we're done, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

Kainzo I told you I would tag you when we talked, unfortunately it was here and not in that private conversation. I am sorry for dissecting Danda's negative and hostile reply to myself, and our kingdom, but we do not have time for it to continue down such a path. Could you please help us if they take too much longer to assist us in setting up our kingdom regions/upgrade?

Now I am sorry but, please take everything I've said with a grain of salt, I'm just trying to look out for the growth of our townships and trying accomplish kingdom for everyone involved. This is very discouraging behavior and does not promote my will to continue forward as either a player or a leader for our townships. We did nothing significant to reward us this kind of behavior.

I mean, we've setup pylons according to our interpretation, we've raised the 75,000 coins, we gathered over 40 dragon eggs to ensure we had enough pylons, we built a pixel for pixel map and placed those pylons on chunks, then built them in game, we tried to contact the people in charge for it multiple times and now I am being cussed out like I am some obnoxious child and singled out of our group effort.

 

[Symbolite]

On a side note you're the one being lazy here. You were given instructions on how pylons should be set up and you put the minimal effort into putting them up. You constantly complained about having to build actual pylons during our conversation and kept asking if you could put up dirt pillars instead, now even after all of that you've put in little effort again considering you've only got 26 pylons out of your allotted 50. If you would stop trying to cut corners you would be perfectly fine and not run into any problems. leftovers5 & LO never ran into any issues because they actually put in a little effort and used a reasonable amount of their pylons.

It's quite the opposite of lazy actually, all the planning that was put into where each and every pylon needed to go was done on a block for block/chunk for chunk drawing of our entire kingdom area. Do you know how much work that is? We could have had someone go around on foot and just plop down pylons at random where we felt it was good enough. We didn't want to be just good enough, we went for perfection. Placing our pylons like that would have been the lazy way. We have 26 pylons not because we didn't want to build 27... or 50 but because that was the most efficient layout that was possible with the rules that were given to us to work with. So why would we build more than we needed to when 26 was all we needed to properly fill in our kingdom area?

Anyway this exact situation is why we had so many questions before anything was actually built and that's why we presented maps, descriptions, and detailed drawings of what we were building before we built them. Only when these things were approved did we finally start placing down blocks in-game. So naturally we're going to be upset when the designs that were approved have been denied now that they've been built.

We've gone above and beyond what we needed to to plan out our pylon layout. So yeah, not lazy in the slightest.

And I know the Admins are not being lazy because as a Moderator I know how busy an Admin can be with the server when they do have a chance to log in, so whatever, get us set up when you or Alator are available and in the mean time keep answering questions if we have them.

Right now I believe the questions we need answered are which pylons are to far apart? Is it just a pair? a couple? all of them?

And a suggestion for when this is all said and done. Clearer pylon build rules for future kingdoms. Instead of referring to render distance as a tool for measuring distance between pylons it should be xxx amount of blocks.

 

[MajorasMask]

xexorian

The rules are stated on the wiki:

• The Kingdom boundary must be marked by a series of pylons that extend around the whole kingdom.
• These pylons are constructed by the players to their own design.
• No more than 50 pylons can be used to mark the kingdom boundary.
• Pylons must be well-lit and visible from adjacent pylons.
• Pylons must be no more than 50 blocks from township boundaries where the boundary goes around towns.
• Kingdoms may not envelop Herogates or Dragon Roosts.

And, Alator has already told you what the issue is:

''Application as is has been denied. Pillars are too far apart. Rules state each pillar must be visible from the next. You used 26 pillars; you can use up to a maximum of 50. Tag me when this issue has been resolved.''

I don't see why you're stuck. What do they have left to explain? Why can't you just make some more pylons? If you can change them after you've made them, then why not make dirt pylons as a temporary measure until you get the region; then change them once everything is sorted.

 

[Dielan9999]

• No more than 50 pylons can be used to mark the kingdom boundary.
• Pylons must be well-lit and visible from adjacent pylons.
• Pylons must be no more than 50 blocks from township boundaries where the boundary goes around towns.

We satisfy all these requirements.

'Pillars are too far apart. Rules state each pillar must be visible from the next..''

I don't see why you're stuck. What do they have left to explain? Why can't you just make some more pylons? If you can change them after you've made them, then why not make dirt pylons as a temporary measure until you get the region; then change them once everything is sorted.

We need to know which pylons have disqualified our application. It's ambiguous.

 

[xexorian]

I don't see why you're stuck. What do they have left to explain? Why can't you just make some more pylons? If you can change them after you've made them, then why not make dirt pylons as a temporary measure until you get the region; then change them once everything is sorted.

What do they have left to explain?
1. WHICH ONES?

Why can't you just make some more pylons?
2. Refer to 1.

If you can change them after you've made them, then why not make dirt pylons as a temporary measure until you get the region; then change them once everything is sorted.
3. "You constantly complained about having to build actual pylons during our conversation and kept asking if you could put up dirt pillars instead,"

3b. Not that I asked about dirt pillars, nor complained about building "Actual Pylons" I asked if we could have a kingdom wall with towers instead of pylons marking the region, and that we could outline it with stoneslab pillars marking the location of each 'tower' / 'pylon'.

99% of everything I asked so far was ignored completely and there was no lee-way given, and none still is.

edit: I'll post here that I am very carefully leaving out private conversation information because it does not concern you, MM.

 

[MajorasMask]

We satisfy all these requirements.

We need to know which pylons have disqualified our application. It's ambiguous.

You've contradicted yourself. If you have pylons which don't suit the rules, then you have not satisfied all the requirements.

If you're stuck as to ''WHICH ONES'' don't fit the rules, then check. I only looked at two and I couldn't see any others. I don't know what render distance you're using, I used 'far' and it still didn't work.

 

[Dielan9999]

You've contradicted yourself. If you have pylons which don't suit the rules, then you have not satisfied all the requirements.

If you're stuck as to ''WHICH ONES'' don't fit the rules, then check. I only looked at two and I couldn't see any others. I don't know what render distance you're using, I used 'far' and it still didn't work.

Well on medium render distance I can see them, but you can't see them on far. We might not need to fix the ones you saw. So if I have to fix something, I want to know exactly what it is I have to do. I don't want to waste my time or anyone else's time.

 

[MajorasMask]

Well on medium render distance I can see them, but you can't see them on far. We might not need to fix the ones you saw. So if I have to fix something, I want to know exactly what it is I have to do. I don't want to waste my time or anyone else's time.

How would you be able to see them on medium but not on far? O_O You see more blocks/chunks on far.

 

[xexorian]

How would you be able to see them on medium but not on far? O_O You see more blocks/chunks on far.

This is false in my experience. The fog distance is changed and the number of chunks loaded does not. Unless, you have optifine which is supported in the hero modpack.*

*there's more to this I care not to explain.

The rules are not specific enough if they are to be enforced as they are written right now. Also, I can see ALL the pylons just fine with both the

• vanilla 1.5.1 minecraft.jar
• optifine included in the heromod jar pack

Set on "Short" render distance while walking the kingdom edge.. as I go by one pylon I can see the next load up just fine and look back and see the others. Just fine. I don't see the problem Alator has witnessed, or that you see in your screenshots.

Also, I'm sorry I don't keep up with updates to Minecraft, but I know a vanilla Minecraft server defaults at a render radius of 10 chunks in the server.ini settings. I think this is different on single player as well.

 

[xexorian]

How would you be able to see them on medium but not on far? O_O You see more blocks/chunks on far.

A brief conclusion that you're wrong is the fact that Far render shows 512m (meters) as the distance, which is more than 2 and a half times the distance our farthest pylon goes out. 128m is the distance for Normal, and 64m is the distance for Short, and all except 1 of my Pylons is viewable from short by the time you walk around the base of the previous one. I'm checking this for a fourth time in game as we speak, so I don't see how we're not following the rules unless I can prove it.

I would like some proof from Alator , and a better explanation of "within viewable distance" because as far as I'm concerned I'm following that rule, however vague it is.

\\ the one pylon I mentioned is the SW one from Nw's capital region and you have to walk approximately 4 or 5 blocks just past the edge of it to see the next one on Short render. The rest I've checked I did not have problems with, however some are very difficult to check because there are in more than one case terrain features that block direct Line of Sight. \\

\\ I can't go griefing a mountain that someone has stuff on just to get Line of Sight to a tower, that's against the rules, and I can't place a Pylon on top of someone else's structure until it becomes official kingdom territory and the rules take it into effect. Even then, we have to go back and pull that whole "size vs age" argument out just to claim territory around the kingdom. \\

\\ As I've said before we did a lot of research and spent countless hours trying to get this right the first time, I don't know why it was denied PRECISELY and we're still in the dark with a bunch of other kingdom related questions. \\

 

[MajorasMask]

xexorian

Yes, if you walk from one pylon to another, the one you're walking away from will remain visible (the chunks are ''maintained'' for a short period of time). However, when it says that one pylon ''is visible from another'', it means that, when you stand right by a pylon, and the chunks have 'reset', the next pylon can be seen. I can not do this with any of your pylons which i've visited, as they are too far away from eachother. And yes, I use normal vanilla MC.

Here is what I did:

- I walk up to a pylon.
- I change my render distance a few times to get rid of ''unloaded'' chunks.
- I wait for all the chunks to load.
- I look in the direction of the next pylon.
- Results (from the pylon at -2000, 2400).

FAR:

MEDIUM:

The other side, looking at the next pylon:

FAR:

MEDIUM:

''Small'' and ''Tiny'' don't show any more than the others.

As you can see, both ''Far'' and ''Medium'' don't show the pylons. I've sat there, waiting for the chunks to load, and they just arn't. You can't see the two pylons from the one i'm at. Of course, if you were to walk up to the pylon then back to the one i'm standing on, you'd be able to see it; but it quickly goes away. None the less, this isn't what you're being asked to do. You're being asked to make it so that each pylon is visible from the next. This would mean that I should have been able to see both the pylons with a render distance of ''far'', at least.

What you're probably seeing (I walked to it, then back):

Plus, why do you keep tagging admins? If they have not replied, it is most likely that they've not checked the forums, or have other things which need doing (most people are asleep/busy with RL at this time of day).

 

[xexorian]

-snip-

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
That is your interpretation of the rules, furthermore you're still wrong about the pylons and you proved it to yourself.
Normal and Far do not render any additional chunks, DOUBLE CHECK YOUR OWN IMAGES!!!
They simply move the distance at which the fog starts and stops as I stated before.
With optifine, a multiplayer mod supported by the server, it allows you to cache chunks to properly display their radius AS WOULD BE NORMAL FOR SINGLE PLAYER.

That default server setting of 10 chunk radius translates to a 20 chunk diameter, translates to 20 x 16 = 200 + 120 = 320 radius in BLOCKS.

That is the DEFAULT SETTINGS for NORMAL MINECRAFT SMP SERVERS.

I have no idea that the settings for Herocraft's are different. The admins didn't respond or tell us. They didn't tell us much to be honest. They're going off the Wiki's little ruleset that Neo_Exdeath wrote. Also the server seems to be making chunks at 5-7ish viewable instead of the default, based off of your screenshot alone.

I am just now are figuring this out. The rule was too vague and we made assumptions about this distance allowed. Because it's subjective to each persons interpretation of it.

THERE IS NO SUPPORT & THE RULE IS SUBJECT TO OPINION.
aka NOT CLEARLY DEFINED/TRANSPARENT, aka NOT OPAQUE/COHERENT.

I'll also note here that the pylon you're on is less than 108~ blocks from the other ones if it's counted in a straight line, but the chunks load on a grid and the pylons go from straight lines to diagonals to a mix of in between so it will be a little screwy.

This is why we are asking//and asked over a week ago for a MINIMUM distance requirement in BLOCKS not "VIEWABLE" distance because that is subject to how YOU, as a person, DEFINE VIEWABLE and with WHAT CLIENT.. on WHAT SETTINGS?

Each pylon loads and unloads properly into view distance while normally playing on short/normal/far/ and with optifine which is a recommended mod for the heromod jar/modded client for herocraft. Ofcourse if you stand there at the center of each they will unload, and not ALL of them, only the one majorasmask is pointing out and I think one other. Again, I'm pretty sure this is only like this on vanilla, and only for those two specific pylons at 7(6 1/2) chunk radius from it's other sides.

Again, I'm not sure, and we need better answers.

 

[xexorian]

The real problem here, as I just measured the one you're on majoras, is that the towers are approximately 6 blocks larger than 6 radius in chunks, and this translates to 6 x 16 = 60+36 = 96 + 6 = 102.

The problem is, this:

It's still viewable when I touch the building. AND EVERYWHERE IN BETWEEN. However, when we pillared up we saw this happening:

You can see here a hint of the problem, viewable distance is loaded in every 16 blocks, and not block for block, which is why I wanted to base our pylons on chunk radius to begin with, in regards to that, and at the time I forgot that chunk radius was defined on the server side, but Im sure somewhere deep down I knew that naturally from playing so long so that's why I had assumed that. Looks like I was right to worry about view distance two weeks prior to even building them.

Also check these images out for more detail:

This is the tower I'm standing on, and the distance it's blocks are from the CHUNK EDGE.

This is the tower we're viewing from the other one, and you can see why the chunk outline in the black L on the edge of the images would prevent a natural block for block straight line distance connection.

So even assigning pylons a straight-line value that's too high could result in diagonal chunks not loading if it clips past the 6 x 16 mark.


Either way, this is speculation and Alator hasn't told us which ones to fix yet, so until we wait and get another reply weeks or months later, fuck it years later, we're not going kingdom.

Don't complain we don't put work in, when we've tagged you 5-6+ times in a period over a week, or even just a day or two and checked maps and all the pylons like this and even explained the fault as much as I can tell, from your response, as it is We still lack information and more knowledge on the subject. Please tell us where to put additional pylons to "fix your issue" since I don't see a problem with one or two pylons being 5 or so blocks out of line due to poor game design/server knowledge that we could not obtain prior, and even then if it was, then not easily. Besides that, we asked and showed you guys this map:

Note, if you count it, the pylon in question only has 6 chunks in between it and the next one.. and there's two more at the top right based on this map, and right middle that might need to be closer.

Like I said, if we had more to go on, we could figure this out, until then, we're waiting on a reply from someone in charge, not you MajorasMask.

By the way, for the onlookers, the light grey area was the original kingdom area we marked out. Obviously MUCH MUCH Larger than what we do have marked out now, and we were told we can't base it off the growth of townships because that was unfair to LO, as they MADE AN ASSUMPTION (their words, not mine) that it was the CURRENT SIZE of the township that had to take effect, and ALSO made the assumption (their words, not mine) that they could move their pylons outward to cover any future upgrades.

1) they should have 50 pylons already, and unless they can space them better thats gonna be hard to do.
2) no one told them much, they just did their own thing then apped for it apparently and received it shortly afterwards with no real hassle.

As you can see, we clearly had plans for much more pylons and such, and we've been in discussion here on TS3, but no where formal where it can be traced or is written down.

I'm rather upset at this whole situation because it is taking too long to handle. This is a simple response/simple answer thing. Infact, kainzo could change ONE setting on the server and fix our problem entirely by increasing view distance to 7 or 8 chunks or hell, back to the normal 10.

I'd also like to say that it is in the greater opinion of our kingdom that it should not be opinion based nor creatively limited on any of the kingdom rules. When Danda told us to make Turrets like LO did we were insanely upset over it and decided to ignore this request and build tower-like pylons of our own choosing. I did not go to LO's kingdom to go get an example. If pylons had to be turrets it should be in the rules. Also, they never gave us any sort of distance measurement so we went with what we felt was the maximum which appeared to be about 7 chunks, Sidesummy and myself had an extremely hard time trying to figure this out but it looked good when we were done because we didn't stand ontop of the towers dead centers, we were moving around and stuff when we built them, some are obviously closer than others.

Anyway, let us know what to do, thanks!

 

[Alator]

I'm rather dissapointed in the response to my ruling. I understand being upset, but the way things have been worded in both this post and in pms is unfortunate. Anyway I did not check all of the the pylons, for once I found several that I could not see the next one, I stopped. I am away this weekend t my fiance's parents house, and even so, demanding that we bend to your beck and call at whatever time you wish is completely unreasonable.

I will compile a list of the pylons that have no visible neighbors when I get home and have a chance, but don't throw your angst at us because your measurements on paper didn't pan out in game.

 

[Psychokhaos]

I'm rather dissapointed in the response to my ruling. I understand being upset, but the way things have been worded in both this post and in pms is unfortunate. Anyway I did not check all of the the pylons, for once I found several that I could not see the next one, I stopped. I am away this weekend t my fiance's parents house, and even so, demanding that we bend to your beck and call at whatever time you wish is completely unreasonable.

I will compile a list of the pylons that have no visible neighbors when I get home and have a chance, but don't throw your angst at us because your measurements on paper didn't pan out in game.

Thanks for the work you're putting into this, and I understand that life can be a crazy thing. Have fun this weekend, and we'll be waiting. Happy Easter. ^.^

 

[leftovers5]

I talked to Leftovers5. (A player, mind you.) He said their pylons were 9o-100 blocks apart, as ours about are right now. Yet, we were denied.. and as far as I can tell, "Pylons are too far apart" based on our actual response from administration. We as a group consider it was a vague and not clear answer as to where and how to fix our "issue".

Actually a lot of my kingdom leaders did most of the urban planning, and they had created graphical representations of the pylons with distances around the towns. If you need to regroup, I'm sure one of them would be happy getting you started with some sort of medium to do that.

I'm not sure how your kingdom approached it, but we went by our own guidelines and created a LOT of pylons (can't remember how many, but in the high 40s). The problem might just be solved by putting additional pylons between the 'problem' pylons.

EDIT:

Didn't read past Xexo's post, so thanks Symbolite... scratch most of what I said.

It's quite the opposite of lazy actually, all the planning that was put into where each and every pylon needed to go was done on a block for block/chunk for chunk drawing of our entire kingdom area. Do you know how much work that is? We could have had someone go around on foot and just plop down pylons at random where we felt it was good enough. We didn't want to be just good enough, we went for perfection. Placing our pylons like that would have been the lazy way. We have 26 pylons not because we didn't want to build 27... or 50 but because that was the most efficient layout that was possible with the rules that were given to us to work with. So why would we build more than we needed to when 26 was all we needed to properly fill in our kingdom area?

 

[leftovers5]

I'd also like to say that it is in the greater opinion of our kingdom that it should not be opinion based nor creatively limited on any of the kingdom rules. When Danda told us to make Turrets like LO did we were insanely upset over it and decided to ignore this request and build tower-like pylons of our own choosing. I did not go to LO's kingdom to go get an example. If pylons had to be turrets it should be in the rules. Also, they never gave us any sort of distance measurement so we went with what we felt was the maximum which appeared to be about 7 chunks, Sidesummy and myself had an extremely hard time trying to figure this out but it looked good when we were done because we didn't stand ontop of the towers dead centers, we were moving around and stuff when we built them, some are obviously closer than others.

We WERE told that you had to be able to walk up the pylon from inside of it. That's why all of ours have stairs. I'm not sure if it's the same deal with yours, because I haven't taken the time to specifically look at them.

 

[MajorasMask]

We WERE told that you had to be able to walk up the pylon from inside of it. That's why all of ours have stairs. I'm not sure if it's the same deal with yours, because I haven't taken the time to specifically look at them.

You can't walk up their pylons.

 

[HolyRane]

MajorasMask I don't know if this is in my power to say, but can you get the FUCK off this thread? You're upset that you were rejected by OS and you want to delay and stop them from getting kingdom as much as you possibly can. I'm sick of seeing your negative, ignorant comments about everything xexo and OS is working for. While I'm not sure exactly where I stand in the kingdom currently, I CAN say that you should vacate yourself from this thread and stop being an annoying asshole. We are working this out with ADMINS, not some annoying players from a rival township.

 

[MajorasMask]

MajorasMask I don't know if this is in my power to say, but can you get the FUCK off this thread? You're upset that you were rejected by OS and you want to delay and stop them from getting kingdom as much as you possibly can. I'm sick of seeing your negative, ignorant comments about everything xexo and OS is working for. While I'm not sure exactly where I stand in the kingdom currently, I CAN say that you should vacate yourself from this thread and stop being an annoying asshole. We are working this out with ADMINS, not some annoying players from a rival township.

Oh i'm sorry. I'll leave it up to you guys, especially Xexorian. I'm sure his long walls of text, constant admin tags, drama, tantrums and complaining will do the kingdom a lot of good!