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Suggestion HeroFactions - Basic Heroes and Factions Server.

Trazil

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
you can disable allying
They still will fight together, idk I don't really think there should be such a hard limit because it kinda makes recruiting new players very discouraging on top of the fact that they can already kill your faction within 5 mins of joining
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
They still will fight together, idk I don't really think there should be such a hard limit because it kinda makes recruiting new players very discouraging on top of the fact that they can already kill your faction within 5 mins of joining
Thats a player problem if players fight together, and since its factions, I doubt you will see a lot of recruiting
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
They still will fight together, idk I don't really think there should be such a hard limit because it kinda makes recruiting new players very discouraging on top of the fact that they can already kill your faction within 5 mins of joining
And also if they want to ally, with an already small player base they are just make less pvp for themself.
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
Can you set the limits of allying? Is there a cooldown to it? Can it be made not to be very abuse-able?
Depends what faction plugin you use, hop in hc ts and I can tell you about some good faction plugins.
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
Few questions: Discuss what you think, these are ideas and want to know what you guys want.
  • How do we feel about enabling enderpearls to all the classes?
    • Obviously a CD before you can throw the next enderpearl.
  • Potions? It's factions and potions are a major part of that.
    • I feel like health splash potions won't work with healing classes unless...
    • We could use health potions if we remove healing classes and abilities?
  • Professions?
    • Remove all professions?
    • Allow all classes to enchant and repair using anvils?
  • Protection armor?
    • No mob drop armor but how about we re-enable enchants like protection.
    • Public plugins are available to restrict how high an enchant can go. e.g. capping protection at II or III etc
  • Adding protection armor allows a sort of grind and time consuming thing to do making armor worth something when you kill someone and recieve their armor. Capping the protection level at what ever we feel is balanced will allow the loss to not be too great and the reward to still be good.
 

Trazil

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Few questions: Discuss what you think, these are ideas and want to know what you guys want.
  • How do we feel about enabling enderpearls to all the classes?
    • Obviously a CD before you can throw the next enderpearl.
  • Potions? It's factions and potions are a major part of that.
    • I feel like health splash potions won't work with healing classes unless...
    • We could use health potions if we remove healing classes and abilities?
  • Professions?
    • Remove all professions?
    • Allow all classes to enchant and repair using anvils?
  • Protection armor?
    • No mob drop armor but how about we re-enable enchants like protection.
    • Public plugins are available to restrict how high an enchant can go. e.g. capping protection at II or III etc
  • Adding protection armor allows a sort of grind and time consuming thing to do making armor worth something when you kill someone and recieve their armor. Capping the protection level at what ever we feel is balanced will allow the loss to not be too great and the reward to still be good.
Idk how for Kainzo will be about no more special armors and such, but they would certainly need to be toned down. Maybe like only able to get 1lvl of prot higher than normal enchanting for like -15 hp. Seems reasonable to me, just no more insanely op weapons and armor (ie speed) because those were the ones that really kill the rare drop system. I enjoyed getting like crystal katanas though, and I think capping them at 1 and at the highest 2 lvls over normal is reasonable.
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
Idk how for Kainzo will be about no more special armors and such, but they would certainly need to be toned down. Maybe like only able to get 1lvl of prot higher than normal enchanting for like -15 hp. Seems reasonable to me, just no more insanely op weapons and armor (ie speed) because those were the ones that really kill the rare drop system. I enjoyed getting like crystal katanas though, and I think capping them at 1 and at the highest 2 lvls over normal is reasonable.
Think it was said earlier in the thread no one wants mob drops
 

MunchlaxHero

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
May 19, 2013
Few questions: Discuss what you think, these are ideas and want to know what you guys want.
  • How do we feel about enabling enderpearls to all the classes?
    • Obviously a CD before you can throw the next enderpearl.
  • Potions? It's factions and potions are a major part of that.
    • I feel like health splash potions won't work with healing classes unless...
    • We could use health potions if we remove healing classes and abilities?
  • Professions?
    • Remove all professions?
    • Allow all classes to enchant and repair using anvils?
  • Protection armor?
    • No mob drop armor but how about we re-enable enchants like protection.
    • Public plugins are available to restrict how high an enchant can go. e.g. capping protection at II or III etc
  • Adding protection armor allows a sort of grind and time consuming thing to do making armor worth something when you kill someone and recieve their armor. Capping the protection level at what ever we feel is balanced will allow the loss to not be too great and the reward to still be good.
-Enderpearls are difficult, enabling them all for every class is a possibility, will look into this more.
-Potions, I would actually like to entirely remove potions or code them better for heroes, they have a huge impact on PvP and it goes to show that without potions you will do a lot worse, depends on if we want gear to determine a fight or skill. For right now I say remove them, speed already does way too much with heroes, until we can balance them around what we already have removing them is the best option. Making them out of combat exclusive is another alternative. @Egorb
-Professions, I say keep them in, but simplify them, obviously with the removal of potions removing alchemist would be key, but i feel a lot of people like professions. Engineers for traps, smith for repairs, etc. Gives people a market too.
-Protection should be capped at 1 or 2, once it is 3-4 it neglects a lot.
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
-Enderpearls are difficult, enabling them all for every class is a possibility, will look into this more.
-Potions, I would actually like to entirely remove potions or code them better for heroes, they have a huge impact on PvP and it goes to show that without potions you will do a lot worse, depends on if we want gear to determine a fight or skill. For right now I say remove them, speed already does way too much with heroes, until we can balance them around what we already have removing them is the best option. Making them out of combat exclusive is another alternative. @Egorb
-Professions, I say keep them in, but simplify them, obviously with the removal of potions removing alchemist would be key, but i feel a lot of people like professions. Engineers for traps, smith for repairs, etc. Gives people a market too.
-Protection should be capped at 1 or 2, once it is 3-4 it neglects a lot.
  • If we want to attract a faction crowd I believe potions do need to be enabled, if each person has a speed spot then it is even and it is there fault for not bringing one.
  • With the professions I recon they should be removed as we want to have some decent amount of changes from survival and since factions is more streamlined I believe we should just scrap them.
  • Agree with the protection armor, prot 2 sounds enough.
 
Y

ytiggidmas

-Enderpearls are difficult, enabling them all for every class is a possibility, will look into this more.
-Potions, I would actually like to entirely remove potions or code them better for heroes, they have a huge impact on PvP and it goes to show that without potions you will do a lot worse, depends on if we want gear to determine a fight or skill. For right now I say remove them, speed already does way too much with heroes, until we can balance them around what we already have removing them is the best option. Making them out of combat exclusive is another alternative. @Egorb
-Professions, I say keep them in, but simplify them, obviously with the removal of potions removing alchemist would be key, but i feel a lot of people like professions. Engineers for traps, smith for repairs, etc. Gives people a market too.
-Protection should be capped at 1 or 2, once it is 3-4 it neglects a lot.
Potions have a huge impact on pvp. People blow them off, but when properly used, they give an immense advantage. I think they haven't been properly integrated with heroes, and giving them a break and disabling them until a later time would be a good idea. I think professions would be a good idea, but I'm still not a fan of the crafting limitations that were introduced in haven, I think it created too much trouble for small groups and newbie players than it did to support whatever it was meant to. Herocraft should be able to be played comfortably solo or within groups. Although it is understandable that groups should have an advantage, in this case i feel its just unnecessary.
 

MunchlaxHero

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
May 19, 2013
  • If we want to attract a faction crowd I believe potions do need to be enabled, if each person has a speed spot then it is even and it is there fault for not bringing one.
  • With the professions I recon they should be removed as we want to have some decent amount of changes from survival and since factions is more streamlined I believe we should just scrap them.
  • Agree with the protection armor, prot 2 sounds enough.
I understand your reasoning, if potions were to stay they should be able to be made by every player though, they affect PvP too much to be only limited by alchemist. But even then, factions and hero factions would be different, with heroes potions give a much bigger benefit, having a class with speed 2 and a caster with no speed, even if the caster is much better, they will most likely lose, for the fact that it is almost impossible to kite when you are dealing with someone that is a lot faster than you. A lot of factions do not have to deal with this and the ones that do usually have a passive speed boost for the squishies. Until you say give casters and rogues a passive speed boost, I still would prefer without them.
 

Jrr_

Architect
Balance Team
Adventure Team
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Location
Straya
I understand your reasoning, if potions were to stay they should be able to be made by every player though, they affect PvP too much to be only limited by alchemist. But even then, factions and hero factions would be different, with heroes potions give a much bigger benefit, having a class with speed 2 and a caster with no speed, even if the caster is much better, they will most likely lose, for the fact that it is almost impossible to kite when you are dealing with someone that is a lot faster than you. A lot of factions do not have to deal with this and the ones that do usually have a passive speed boost for the squishies. Until you say give casters and rogues a passive speed boost, I still would prefer without them.
If we want to go HCF like we can do the passive speed boosts. And yes of course everyone will be able to make potions.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
When most veterans look back they look at Bastion as the most fun they've had. But it's not just all the changes that happened that screwed it up, it's also the changes that didn't happen that screwed it up. I can without a doubt say that 99% of the veterans would be willing to come back if we saw something better come around, but the way Herocraft is now just seems too complicated, too much of a grind, and just too much time and dedication for the veterans to come back. For example most of Umbra now is in the work force with their own lives, families, educations, and careers to pursue. I'll keep it short and sweet why Bastion was such a success
1. The community(TC, FC, and UMB used to camp the fuck out of towns, steal, and kill until fights would start)
The community was large and often had 100ish people on the server at a time. With the map starting at 2000x2000 in Bastion, we were able to run into one another randomly, and often had random encounters with each other to start up wars, and battles. I don't know what the size of the map is now, but the point is, when we get these huge adventure maps, and sometimes multiple servers, we ruin the chance of running into one another, and overall decrease the chances of pvp of happening. PVP=FUN,
2. Townships
Townships back then meant a lot more than the shit plugin that's implemented now. Sure the system sucked back then, but it meant gathering materials, money, and in most cases a group of people all rushing to get all of them together so they could get a town started. Having rules about box towns, and ugly ass towns meant people putting more effort into their towns, which meant bonding and that kind of shit to build something meaningful. Now i'm sure it's even worse with the way towns look, now it's probably all underground rooms, with no care for looks whatsoever
3.Glitching and Exploiting
Glitching and exploiting was very common in bastion. We used to use the most unethical and illegal ways to get into peoples bases, so we could actually steal shit since stealing and getting into people's bases was basically impossible with LWC's and the sort. (I did a damn good job at making umbra secure)Not to mention all the duping that happened, meant we didn't have to work for shit. We didn't have to grind, and that's what made it so we could pvp 24/7. I personally didn't(because i didn't know how lol) but most towns engaged in duping gold, or spawn eggs as a means for unlimited cash, and exp. We died and would lose our shit, just to grab another set of duped shit and go out and fight again. There was no risk back then for going out and fucking around with your buddies and even organizing teamfights for the hell of it. For fucks sake, most of the videos on my channel from Bastion were ORGANIZED. FUCKING ORGANIZED. That alone should say something. We didn't do it back then to gain anything, we did it because we loved to pvp, and to have fun.
4. The Classes
Bastion Classes were all so overpowered to the point it was balanced. I loved the combat back then because making a single mistake in skill order, or missing something meant game over. Combat was fast, and if you fucked up, you paid the price. People were constantly getting one shot, and just utterly destroyed, and it was just awesome. It meant for exhilarating combat, that everyone loved. I know it sounds stupid, but you know what's more stupid? Fucking slapping each other around for 5 minutes, and not having a result because of the class changes that lowered damaged and extended combat time. The whole making fighting time longer was just fucking stupid. People were able to escape so much more often with the lag spikes(oh we loved that too). I know i'm just ranting here, but back in bastion, we really were able to separate the good pvpers from the exceptional pvpers. People who actually knew their classes, could shit on any of the other classes without a problem. We used to even beat the cheaters because they just didn't know how to use skills, but only used shit like forcefield and the autoaim shit.

Honestly overall, the reason why the cool kids stopped playing is cause we stopped having fun. We got bored of grinding the same classes for the same little risk and zero reward bullshit. We stopped organizing fights, and stopped having fun.(Organized fights as in "hey meet us at x place wtih y people to fight?")Townships went to shit(because of the plugin, and the effort from townships), we hardly ran into one another because of the several servers, and maps(PVE, Mining maps i'm looking at you). Attributes was cool for a bit, but hardly actually had any meaningful differences to separate one's class from somebody else's. The custom items were cool back in Haven but once they started becoming township requirements it became bullshit because you would have such a little chance of getting certain items. There was just a ton of focus on other things than what the pvpers wanted, and that's exactly why we left. Herocraft has notoriously focused on things that we didn't give a flying fuck about and neglected what we did.

The things neglected were:
1. Incentive to pvp(FUCK that stupid leaderboard, we want to steal each others shit. TNT isn't enough, we want Cannons, lockpicks- for lwcs, and COOL THINGS- hell maybe even rocket boots to fly, or battering rams to destroy walls- fucking anything really, just use some common sense ffs)
2. Towns(Towns used to be large groups because of the amount of effort required to create and maintain them, rules to regulate box and undergound towns should be in place, towns should get audited, and the prettiest one's should be rewarded.)
3. Raiding (on the off chance people do run into each other, there needs to be a consequence, you lose a battle or war- your town gets sacked, and people get raped)
4. Playerbase- for fucks sake, invest some fucking money into advertising, and an actually good reward system for voting. Throw a donor tier or something so that way we can get up there, and stay up there on the minecraft server sites.
5.MAP SIZE- oh my god, all these 8000 block maps means nobody is going to run into each other. Random encounters are so exciting, and created some of my best memories on bastion. Make the map smaller, so we can actually run to each others towns within 5 minutes.

edit: just my two cents bitches
Thanks for the insightful post, I read every word of it.

So I think can sum up what PvPers want out of factions. Same PvP that is right now with a little more extreme values like in Bastion, potions, emeralds, diamonds, no left out skills, remove custom crafting and custom drops, either completely remove attributes or simplify them, bring back "picky deathchests" (they do not spawn in water or in air, and you have to have a chest and sign on you) or have everything drop instantly, do not get anything back once you die, limit the plugins so we can focus on the PvP, either remove professions or simplify them down, faster leveling, more ways to loot factions, bring back skill engrave, and no custom mobs. The point is to get back to HC's roots, fast Heroes PvP, not simple, you can already see people want it Kainzo. I have spoken with other vets and they would enjoy this, we all loved siege for its pure PvP and everything else that was absent. @Kainzo Make this happen. And once you see the numbers increase we should start developing new classes.
This is something I'm seeing is wanted for Factions. When I stated "simplified" i meant not heavy RPG that we have right now on Survival RPG. It would have no (or little) custom items... much more in line with Minecraft PVP in terms of gear.
And we want Smith to be able to name weapons for funny weapon names in chat again!
This always had issues... but I can see the player-fun of it. I removed it largely for the custom items so players wouldnt fudge it like pancacks.
Think less combat bard, more ooc bard.
In DnD I always play OOC Bard, it's fun for me and my group appreciates it.
I can make near any saving throw for any skill.
And provide helpful support via Cantrips and the occasional Cure Minor Wounds.

How I mean this with Herocraft:
I'd rather see 3-4 Servers (Creative, Live, RPG, incoming Factions) all have players and function and allow people to enjoy different playstyles, while still being able to stay on HC, and easily transition between playstyles, over having one stagnant Survival type. I enjoyed bastion, I did. But I like change, Bastion felt stagnant for me. 90% sure I left because it was always the same people doing the same stuff. Sure, it's not as populous as it once was, but Kainzo and the others working on the changes do so because change is needed. Switch to Bastion-Style won't magically bring back the old numbers. Much has changed, both with HC and those players.

Tl;Dr: Herocraft should do many things, who cares about groups, bastion wasn't all gold, change is good.
I think change is why we're still a community and alive. I don't want to be a one server hoster anymore, I want to expand because I find expansion to be fun to me.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Agreed. You need to listen to PVPers about how the future of PVP on Factions should be. A lot of PVPers have seen the rise and fall of pvp on the server. They know what PVP at it's peak was. There needs to be a form of trust from these players that they know what they want. This is probably one of the few sentiments that strike a cord with me from this thread.
I want to wrap this page up, it is going far way too far out. Majority of the community seems to agree with my judgement on how the factions should be laid out. All of the PvPers that have been around since Bastion like the idea. The few people that disagree with the idea are people that do not traditionally PvP. WE KNOW WHAT WE WANT. You have taken the PvErs ideas in the past for PvP decisions and it hasn't helped the server out. Since this is server is factions, which is all PvP, would it not make sense to listen to the people that are constantly enjoying and experiencing the Heroes PvP? I leave you with this, if you want Factions to succeed listen to the community. @Kainzo
I made this post so that I can get feedback from everyone. The goal is to provide servers that players actually want to play on and not sit inactive. I wouldn't have made the thread if I didn't care to read it.
Also just got reminded of this while in ts... but #BringBackKarma2016
is this actually a good idea? Does it actually help or improve pvp? I can see it being cops vs robbers but im unsure if its actually "useful" in a light-rp, heavy PVP environment.
 

Trazil

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
@Kainzo so maybe it's not "useful" but It was fun, and gave a reason to PVP if you wanted a cool title. It also made you want to watch who you got the killing blow on so yo got the right karma, you had always about adding on to this plugin but it never happend.

There are lots of things that could be added to that plugin to make it amazing.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Alrighty - this is what I've gathered.
@Heralds, @Moderators @Admins @Balance Team

Faction Heroes. (View the Network Map!)

- Small Map (2000x2000) --- vanilla generation
- Simplified Items
- Simplified yet Expansive Classes
- Increased leveling rate
- Randomized spawning (with MythicMobs on the back end for anti-exploiting)
- Death Drops
- Enderchest for rare / useful items
- Limited Faction Sizes
- ELO PVP
- Graveyards
- Potions and Enchants with some restrictions (need refinement)


Possible things to discuss/refine
- LWC lock picks (or no LWCs?)
- Map expansion by 100R every 30 days.
- Factions reset every 180 days.
- Faction specific moderators / admins.

How is this different from Survival/Towns RPG?
- No Dungeons
- No Quests
- Faster Leveling
- Focus on Fluid PVP
- Less security
- Less focus on building

Why do I think this will function when other PVE / PVP splits failed?
BECAUSE THIS ISN'T THE SAME.

Before we had attempted to merge the SAME / SAME atmosphere of PVP and PVE. Now we're segregating with extreme prejudice.
I setup Aegis and Sanctuary to be clones except one offered the same game-play with no PVP. This was a drastically stupid thing in hindsight, in a perfect world with x10 the community it may have functioned but even then, PVP was hindered because it had the PVE aspects to fall back on and thus didn't promote good pvp.

Here, we have two different sever types, with VERY different roles to fulfill, one will be fluid PVP based the other will be building and heavy RPG content based.


How can we merge these servers together while not taking away from play-styles?
Simple, two currencies, one that you can earn on any server, the other being server-specific.
It's important to keep the servers separate in numerous ways but I believe there should be a "Trade-in" currency that will let players "transfer" what they have done from one server to another in terms of a Network-based Currency.

Example. A player has played Survival RPG for 2-3 months. This means they have built up a vast armory and high amount of coins. Now they want to get a leap start on Factions, but they want to give up everything, they could trade a portion of their coins to get the Network Currency (Lets call it Jewels to save time) ... so they trade COins into JEWELS at a 1000:1 ratio and are able to buy things from admin shops (or trade with other players) in order to speed up the system without wasting time completely.

Jewels (Usable on all servers on the Herocraft Network)
Coins (Usable on Faction RPG)
Coins (Usable on Survival RPG)
 
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