Suggestion Healer Specs and More

[Scycor]

Dsa, he was just using an example. All he was saying is that: "Just because you have a stake in the matter, it doesn't mean that you're automatically incorrect."

And I agree with RaepSoda - just because some class can kill you in 1v1 doesn't mean it's imbalanced. As a Beguiler, it is difficult to defeat Samurais in 1v1 skirmishes. On a whole however, this does not mean that Samurais are OP.

Oh.... I'm a 40 beguiler and I almost always win against Sammys... It's easy.. Run away, piggify then fireball.. Repeat. You can also Quantumleap them into the Lava pit/off the boat in skirms >.>

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Cleric should be focused on healing rather than doing damage.

Clerics have 1.5 skills that focus on damage (I count Might as 1/2 of a skill). This hardly seems like they are a class that is focused on doing damage.

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Oh.... I'm a 40 beguiler and I almost always win against Sammys... It's easy.. Run away, piggify then fireball.. Repeat. You can also Quantumleap them into the Lava pit/off the boat in skirms >.>

I should have qualified that - GOOD Samurais
Edit: Yes, once you get past their initial cast of Impermanence and Windwalk, things are easier. But a good Samurai will kill you within that 7sec of Impermanence.

 

[Scycor]

Clerics have 1.5 skills that focus on damage (I count Might as 1/2 of a skill). This hardly seems like they are a class that is focused on doing damage.

If you actually bothered to read the rest of my post I gave an example.
EDIT: I also never said that they were "focused on doing damage" i'm saying they are very well capable of doing a plentiful amount of damage.

I should have qualified that - GOOD Samurais
Edit: Yes, once you get past their initial cast of Impermanence and Windwalk, things are easier. But a good Samurai will kill you within that 7sec of Impermanence.

Also, Impermanence isn't much of a bother, all you need is that 1 second to Fireball them... If you feel that they are getting to close to you, run up to them and use beguile while you wait for Piggify to regenerate. Also if you use Beguile/Piggify it's enough time for you to eat and regain about at least 2 hearts.

Though enough about Beguiler, this is about Healer specs.

 

[Licksterboy]

Snip

Thank you! This is exactly what I am trying to say. Also, I do realize that it is hard to balance classes based on 1v1, but think about it, I am playing as a level 45 cleric, I can heal off attacks from caster specs, pummel healer specs to dust with my hoe damage, smite away rogue specs, and use a combination of these on warrior specs. Cleric also has two skills that make it invulnerable, it has great armor and health, I even defeated a level 60 paladin today, without even having to run. Cleric seems to be the new tank in my opinion. (Yes paladins will be able to defeat other classes easier but cleric can still get there)

Also, this topic has turned into an argument about cleric only, if you have comments about my other suggestions concerning the other healer specs and titles, please share!

 

[madpear]

It's turned into an argument about the points where you're wrong due to anecdotal evidence based on a terribly tiny sample size. I've had L60 characters come at me to PvP doing nothing but punching. I can beat them as a Lvl 10 Dragoon. ZOMG imba! The other day I shot a man in a duel as he did not know how to load his weapon, my gun must be imba!!! Please do cite more examples of the times you rocked some 13-yo dunce, because they are just that: anecdotes.

 

[Scycor]

It's turned into an argument about the points where you're wrong due to anecdotal evidence based on a terribly tiny sample size. I've had L60 characters come at me to PvP doing nothing but punching. I can beat them as a Lvl 10 Dragoon. ZOMG imba! The other day I shot a man in a duel as he did not know how to load his weapon, my gun must be imba!!! Please do cite more examples of the times you rocked some 13-yo dunce, because they are just that: anecdotes.

You're starting to get ridiculous, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you have to start making jokes about how dumb you THINK they are. You have only been on Herocraft for less than a month, you honestly don't know much about Heroes and what's balanced and what's not... Play the server for awhile more, after you have mastered some more classes then come talk to us. Obviously you aren't making a very good "First impression."
Anyway, read my last post as I gave examples about why Cleric is a little bit to good in PvP.

 

[RaepSoda]

"Clerics are for support, they shouldn't be able to win easily in a fight alone". That in itself is a true statement.

According to who? You? Lick? Kainzo? The balance team? So far, to me, all the evidence points to Cleric being a "front line" healer.

-Ninja is constantly using his skills on Cleric while the cleric is fighting back.
-Cleric damages Ninja about 3 hearts but runs away and heals.
-Cleric comes back fighting Ninja with full hearts and deals 3 more hearts of damage.
-Cleric runs away and heals up (repeat the cycle)

Your example completely ignores the fact that Ninja's have Blackjack, Confuse, Escape Artist, and Backflip. Skills that can either impede a target, or increase their speed. Cleric's have nothing to increase their speed or break free from a skill's effect.

 

[Licksterboy]

Your example completely ignores the fact that Ninja's have Blackjack, Confuse, Escape Artist, and Backflip. Skills that can either impede a target, or increase their speed. Cleric's have nothing to increase their speed or break free from a skill's effect.

I think that is a fine example! Also, if you are referring that ninjas will beat clerics, I haven't lost yet to a ninja. You also might want to consider that a cleric has no skill to use on a ninja that would require it to use eacape artist. Clerics certainly do have a skill to break away from confuse: dispel.

 

[Licksterboy]

It's turned into an argument about the points where you're wrong due to anecdotal evidence based on a terribly tiny sample size. I've had L60 characters come at me to PvP doing nothing but punching. I can beat them as a Lvl 10 Dragoon. ZOMG imba! The other day I shot a man in a duel as he did not know how to load his weapon, my gun must be imba!!! Please do cite more examples of the times you rocked some 13-yo dunce, because they are just that: anecdotes.

Wow, you certainly have a way of letting people know the type of person you truly are.

 

[RaepSoda]

I think that is a fine example! Also, if you are referring that ninjas will beat clerics, I haven't lost yet to a ninja. You also might want to consider that a cleric has no skill to use on a ninja that would require it to use eacape artist. Clerics certainly do have a skill to break away from confuse: dispel.

You're correct on Escape Artist, misread that skill.

And you're correct on dispel as well, just tried it out. That is stupid that it can dispel debuffs. In fact, I don't think Claric should have dispel.

Thank you for that information.

 

[Scycor]

You're correct on Escape Artist, misread that skill.

And you're correct on dispel as well, just tried it out. That is stupid that it can dispel debuffs. In fact, I don't think Claric should have dispel.

Thank you for that information.

Get your facts straight! XD

 

[madpear]

I'm not being ridiculous at all. You think every person you beat in skirmish is a reasonably competent PVP'er? From my experience, most are not. If you're not clear on what an anecdote is, it's a singular example based on an experience you've had. I'm calling your evidence anecdotal because all you've done is reference times that you had good success then use that as a grounds to call for a rework of a class. It doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, Scycor actually brought up some salient points. Obviously having something like a FullHeal is going to change the dynamic of the battle when one combatant can't regen w/o pots. However, taking EVERYthing into account (strike damage, armor, ability to sustain combat w/o mana, utility skills not specifically for battle) I'd say the Cleric still appears to fit in a rounded niche the same as any other class. Trying to break down a fight into "the cleric does this, then the [class_x] does that, then the cleric counters with..." is never going to arrive at an accurate depiction of real life PVP. I'm not saying it can't approximate reality, but that alone isn't going to be cause for a nerf.

I don't mean to be cutting, probably didn't need to refer to the standard PVPer as a 13-yo dunce, so I'll at least rescind that. But I'm not a proponent of making dramatic changes because one person is performing well with a certain class. Da_Burg seems to constantly destroy Clerics and Ninjas alike where I hang out, shall we discuss nerfing his class? I say good players are good players and will tend to beat the poorer players, regardless of class. If you want to talk about changing specific abilities one at a time, then I think you'd find more traction from other players.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

As I've mastered every healer spec except for Mystic (called it quits around level 45), I would say I have a good grasp of these classes and what they're able to do. Since this conversation has steered it's way to discussing Clerics, I might as well chime in.

While I was a Cleric, I did notice that I was constantly monitoring my Mana, and often times running out. I can only conclude from this that if I was being careless with my skills I would eventually run out of mana and would need to buy some time to regenerate once again. Let's be honest, a Cleric is nothing without mana.

This leads me to my next point. It seems that most classes in HeroCraft always has a class that counters it. With a Dreadknight's ManaFreeze You stop your target's mana regeneration (within 7 blocks) for 15 seconds. 7 sec CD. 15 MP. 5 Stam. you can understand how it would be a great skill to CONSTANTLY be casted on a Cleric... although, if a Cleric is able to Dispel this skill, then Dispel OP? Let's not forget that a Dreadknight can also heal themselves over time if they were to cast Soul Leech. I also hear Dreadknights have better armor than Clerics as well.

You can also make a fair argument that a Samurai has a good chance against a Cleric. I know I pooed my pants every time a Samurai casted MortalWound on me... You strike your target (within 5 blocks) with your sword, reducing healing by 50% and dealing 30 damage every 3 seconds, for 15 seconds. Penetrates armor. Applies to all sword types. 4 sec CD. 7 Stam. Again, this is another skill that can be CONSTANTLY casted on a Cleric. I find it hard to believe that even if a Cleric is healing himself at 50% of what he should be, he's still dusting off a Samurai easily. I'm willing to bet that most Samurais don't understand the extreme advantage of this skill, and aren't attempting to constantly cast it on you Licksterboy. Again though, if Dispel takes away MortalWound, then that is a different story altogether.

Somebody else also made the comparison of Paladin vs. Cleric and I'm drinking the kool-aid as well. Pound for pound, I think a Paladin is just as capable to beat a Cleric if he plays his cards right. Aside from Dragoons, I think Clerics have met their match; Dreadknights, Samurais, and Paladins.

Having said all of that I'll completely agree that a Cleric's role isn't where it should be. In a team fight, aside from using GuardianAngel for those 4.5 crucial seconds and having GroupHeal, it's mega-support status isn't where it needs to be. I, like many, probably envisioned that every town raid NEEDS a Cleric because you would fail without one. This doesn't seem to be the case. While GroupHeal is nice, and will sometimes be a game changer, it isn't the end-all be-all. I think some of Cleric's heals (and for sure Ampul) should be replaced by a BloodBondesque skill to benefit the party. Perhaps the party receives 10% of the magic damage the party as a whole dishes out. For example, if someone in the party just used Harmtouch, the entire group gets 10% of that in heals (25HP). Another alternative would be to give a Cleric an AOE heal which splits the pie depending on how many party members are in the group. Have you ever tried leveling up with a large group of people and only received 7 or so XP for killing a skeleton instead of 35XP? The same aspect can be done for an AOE heal. Chant-AOE advertises healing 350HP, but in a group of 10 people, perhaps the group only receives 70HP or so.

The fact is, if a Cleric would get these buffs to significantly improve it's ability to heal party members effeciently, it would need a nerf to balance that as well. A Cleric should move away from the self-survival spectrum and jump to the Party-survival spectrum. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't be difficult to code this either. A bloodmage already sacrifices his own HP to cast spells. If AOE-Chant healed for 350HP, but cost the Cleric 300HP to cast it, it would for the most part benefit the party, and not himself. This is the direction a support healer should be going.

Seacrest out.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

I'd also like to add that I am no longer a Disciple and have no idea how their new skill "balance" works. Can anybody chime in on that skill? The description confuses me. The only Disciple I know of right now it Teerian. Have you used this skill before? If so, care to share your experiences with it?

 

[Licksterboy]

I'd also like to add that I am no longer a Disciple and have no idea how their new skill "balance" works. Can anybody chime in on that skill? The description confuses me. The only Disciple I know of right now it Teerian. Have you used this skill before? If so, care to share your experiences with it?

Balance is a really cool skill. It "balances" or averages the hp of a party. Meaning, if I had 100% hp and you had 1% hp, then I used balance, we would both end up with about 50% hp. Here is where it was suggested: http://www.herocraftonline.com/main/threads/more-skills-on-the-docket.30019/
I think this is what it is supposed to do.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

I understood that, but the recent Patch Notes confuses me.

NEW: Skill-Balance = Re-adjust all hp in party to the same %, no hp is gained or lost, just re-distributed (Disciple)

Surely if a Wizard was at 10HP and a Paladin still had 900HP when the skill is cast SOMEONE is going to lose or gain HP.

 

[I_Love_Miners]

Im a max wizard and feel cleric is overpowered. Any time a cleric can essentially just run around and absorb damage without even considering attacking, and then win when the other player runs out of many is crazy. I was able to get all of my combos and skills off in short succession 2 times in a fight because of replenish and still lose.

 

[awsumguy75321]

I understood that, but the recent Patch Notes confuses me.

NEW: Skill-Balance = Re-adjust all hp in party to the same %, no hp is gained or lost, just re-distributed (Disciple)

Surely if a Wizard was at 10HP and a Paladin still had 900HP when the skill is cast SOMEONE is going to lose or gain HP.

It takes the HP from the entire party and adds it together. Then, it re-distributes it so everyone has the same amount. Example: Ranger has 700 and Paladin has 300. Both of their HP's get set to 500.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

It takes the HP from the entire party and adds it together. Then, it re-distributes it so everyone has the same amount. Example: Ranger has 700 and Paladin has 300. Both of their HP's get set to 500.

That's how I assumed it worked, but the patch description negates it all. Thanks for the clarification, it seems like a good support skill.