Griefing As It Is Today.

[xexorian]

Say me Dielan Audie Ironee Rob Gab all went on a PK spree, we'd start from zeal in this situation and scout around and setup a camp near some big structures, then start hitting it one at a time, then come in force if we see resistance, once or two of us stay behind and gaurd the camp. If we get wiped out, we come back and try again. If we want to keep resources (because we're so ''hardcore pvpers'' we have time to build stuff, RIGHT? no.) then we'll move them to a far away location. That's just part of it imho. I think it'll just make things more interesting to see people be ALLOWED to retaliate pretty well against raiders. Not this crap about people in townships being overran by 3-5 bandits when we have 10-15 people on.

I'd also like to say this is a poor example but you get my point. And finally -- Arcadia specifically has mostly non-crafter based classes -- it's just most of the pker's we fought were paladins and just taking turns on ''invulnerability'' against us and the ones on CD were fleeing then recalling if needed to. They were using every effort to gain advantage why shouldn't we be able to at least destroy (and pillage them back?) their beds, chests, and other goods they rightfully stole, and we rightfully steal back. Those types of items shouldn't be bannable by keeping. Hell we should even be able to fill their holes (if they're lazy) back up with other materials so they gotta show some effort in attacking us.

It's not hard. It'd take 10-15 minutes to get back to Arcadia from Zeal, another 10-15 making a place to attack us from on the outskirts. 100 or 200 maybe more blocks away. These guys just don't need to run rampart and cause people to have terrible times playing something that should be fun or exhilarating. PVP can be fun and enjoyable -- if done right. Spawn Camping and being able to mindlessly steal / zerg because we can't retaliate by bunker busting if need be, is just retarding the system. Make things more intricate and things will be more exciting. I gaurentee it.

If anyone who PK's 'amok' the wilds of Herocraft disagrees with this, then it is in my honest opinion you're just trolling and/or a pussy. Show some effort since you obviously don't want to mine or build creatively with a town. Even if you're in a town, that makes it easier to use the system this thread's achieved so far in laying out as far as changes go.

Honestly.
~xexorian

PS.
You can't say 'break a bed and replace'. Walking back isn't a harsh enough punishment against raiders that we can do in retaliation. For a very simple reason, it takes us hours to 'farm' the materials we get, but it only takes them minutes to walk to towns. IF that.

I can also be the first(?) to suggest that small structures that can be built or small caves shouldn't be considered griefing if they took <10 minutes to build. or so. I'd deem anything 'small' as <25 blocks x <25 blocks. This is the same regioning prowess you get as a donor, so anything smaller than that should definately be griefable in the wild if it appears to be a raid camp. (As in multiple beds of small or big parties of raiders) -- if it looks like someones house and has a sign saying such, maybe leave it alone, unless you chase a bunch of raiders back to it and the signs' lying . Only structures using real building materials and show effort should even be considered when observed @ for griefing issues. And ALSO structures that are in the process of being built.

Regardless, leniency is our most powerful tool against them at the moment.

 

[Doreagarde]

You make some excellent points, xexorian, and I'm inclined to agree with you. Kainzo has addressed your issue on the third post in this thread, though:

We wont allow griefing at this point in time.

Kainzo's a busy man, so maybe he didn't have time to explain himself, but I do. Regions are coming. Are we going to keep throwing the book at people who break a couple unregioned cobble blocks once regions are out? Probably not. In fact, if someone comes and destroys your camp, I might just ask why it wasn't regioned, and leave it at that. Sound like what you're looking for? Then brighter days are coming, my friend.

 

[Shortyy_oD]

First off I'd like to thank the herocraft community for maintaining a respectable stance against griefers, and running a damn good server and doing a damn good job at it.

Secondly, I'd like to discuss some scenarios which make the current griefing laws a little less than noteworthy.

Shortyy_od come's to Arcadia. He kills me, loots my tombstone, takes chests/signs/beds I had. Weapons. Etc.

Other raiders, friends of his, and them, continously do this. As well as Spawn Camping in my bedroom and Drevarius's bedroom -- which went unpunished.

We all know how you can kill, loot, then recall out so you face no imminent threat whatsoever when you jump someone. We know how laggy pvp can be and how it's pretty much nonsense. Usually the person giving chase has the advantage due to mechanics which I care not to explain. Basically when you stop, they just automatically hit you, even if you dodged what you saw on your screen.

Point is - they take our items, and place them in the world.

What does this do? How does this effect griefing as it is? Well let's say they stole items I had on me. Then placed them in a tunnel they dug straight down and out near our town. Those items can no longer be touched, they're now theirs. Permanently as long as the game world exists, until THEY remove them. OR report someone for griefing their bed in which case they get it back. (I was just spawncamped writing this while afk in my house :> isn't herocraft fun?)

Basically. My point is, if someone places a thousand beds all over the game world, and they're stolen YOU CAN BE BANNED FOR IT.

That's a tad ridiculous, I think the griefing rules should allow lee-way for destroying 'raiders' camps, obvious structures that are small, took no time to build, or are just hallowed caves with chests/beds/signs in them. They're pointless objects that take 1 minute of RL time to build. Only actual houses/lodges/structures should even be taken into consideration when pulling the griefing rule IMHO.

As it is, the PVPers have the advantage, they want to keep something they stole, they just place it in the game world, anywhere, and it's permantently theirs even though it was us crafters/hard working citizens who choose a different lifestyle to make said materials.

Now I know if we take away that ability - that means crafters/miners would have the advantage of being able to get their materials back...by whatever means you'd grant us as a boon to do so, which is why I'm going to make it clear that I'm not. I'm simply stating the fact that if raiders want to take a serious stance on raiding, they should take the time to build structures as we do nearby and assault us from a fortress. Small camps should not be protected by standard griefing rules. No matter how many beds you can shove in a small cave with signs and small chests. They should not be considered griefing unless you actually built a structure beneath or above ground. Or placed walls, doors, etc.

I was rolled back and punished because I broke 12-16 beds about 25-30 blocks away from Arcadia's Barracks and took the chests and signs back they stole from me. Every sign there had names of the raiders that were constantly spawn camping and recalling to their cove. With our tombstone resources and such. It should only be fair that we are allowed to root out small 'encampments' like these without retaliation from the same people who ALREADY ''harrass'' us constantly by pvping us when we're in the middle of trying to develop the new map, throw fireballs at us while we're on ledges, push us off, and otherwise PK us in our own rooms without changing our spawn.

You know why they don't? because it's good exp to place a camp 45 seconds walk away, kill me 5 times, recall with your 2 paladin friends, and do it every 5 minutes. They know we can't defend ourselves and these guys are trolling as hard as they can within the rules. Which is why I think they need to be heated up and bent a little to be reforged.

If you agree, reply here with thoughts and opinions. Oh... And I'll attach some cool pics of SC'ing at it's best after I edit this post.

Also--I do realize this allows "PK Griefers" more leeway because they'd be able to steal your beds, but even if they took our beds and chests. They're replaceable and it'd give me more of a reason to complain when they don't break our beds and spawn camp.

Haha trolling taken to another level, you guys ran at us, we killed you. We didnt take beds or signs. It was pure PVP, get used to it.

 

[Doreagarde]

Haha trolling taken to another level, you guys ran at us, we killed you. We didnt take beds or signs. It was pure PVP, get used to it.

I think xexorian is referring to several ongoing raiding campaigns, and not one skirmish. It's nice to feel special, though, isn't it?

 

[Shortyy_oD]

I think xexorian is referring to several ongoing raiding campaigns, and not one skirmish. It's nice to feel special, though, isn't it?

I love feeling special

 

[Kainzo]

I'll point this out here. PVP OFF areas are chaotic. They are not safe, why would anyone want to sleep there?

I think that inside of the "PVP OFF" area of the Townhall will be a massive bed area

 

[Shenorai]

Then you have the cheeky bastards who find it funny to actually dig into the walls of a town-to-be, make themselves a nice little cavern, and slap down a bed to turn that into their spawn point.

Yes, I'm using the debe-whatshisface example with KRS. Trust me when I say "if one person does this, a lot of people will".

Is buffing up the Heroes plugins so damn important that you have to put off the only protection against raiders that crafters really have?

"Let's give this class the ability to stun, this class the ability to set people on fire, and this class the ability to become invulnerable! Yeah! Not broken at all! If you don't have a bucket of water or the ability to jump away, you're screwed!"

For fuck's sake: Priorities. Get some.

 

[Doreagarde]

Then you have the cheeky bastards who find it funny to actually dig into the walls of a town-to-be, make themselves a nice little cavern, and slap down a bed to turn that into their spawn point.

Yes, I'm using the debe-whatshisface example with KRS. Trust me when I say "if one person does this, a lot of people will".

Is buffing up the Heroes plugins so damn important that you have to put off the only protection against raiders that crafters really have?

"Let's give this class the ability to stun, this class the ability to set people on fire, and this class the ability to become invulnerable! Yeah! Not broken at all! If you don't have a bucket of water or the ability to jump away, you're screwed!"

For fuck's sake: Priorities. Get some.

You're welcome to pay Kainzo and the coding staff a salary if you want them to donate their free time. You and I are busy people, we only have so much time to play, and the Herocraft staff is using that play time to work on the server. In fact, I'm typing this from work, and in a bit I'll login and start attending to the petitions while I'm still at work. I'm working while I'm working.

Of course, we're all doing it because we're passionate about the server. I am, and so are you; why would issues with the server upset you if you didn't care? In fact, if you were to apply for a moderator position, I'd vouch for you. I can't speak for the administrative staff, but I know that they don't take their jobs lightly, and that they have their priorities setup with what's best for the server in mind.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

I am about to read the post but will say : Are you f retarded why would my camp be allowed to be destroyed and yours not ? anly because i am a raider and kill dudes every now and then.

The argument was because your camp was composed primarily of objects that are made from his goods as well as the fact that you are in unfriendly territory and a raider, and thus should experience less free reign over creating camps everywhere while you harass his main base.

 

[Shenorai]

You're welcome to pay Kainzo and the coding staff a salary if you want them to donate their free time. You and I are busy people, we only have so much time to play, and the Herocraft staff is using that play time to work on the server. In fact, I'm typing this from work, and in a bit I'll login and start attending to the petitions while I'm still at work. I'm working while I'm working.

Of course, we're all doing it because we're passionate about the server. I am, and so are you; why would issues with the server upset you if you didn't care? In fact, if you were to apply for a moderator position, I'd vouch for you. I can't speak for the administrative staff, but I know that they don't take their jobs lightly, and that they have their priorities setup with what's best for the server in mind.

I'd rather not waste what little I have. It's shit like this that makes me glad I haven't put a dime toward the server. Kainzo is not as disposable as he deems himself to be: He's pretty much head coder, as far as I'm concerned. Even if I have a say in things, he's still gonna code things his way. Tunnel vision, as I like to call it.

Also...putting me as a moderator would probably be the worst thing to happen to the server. I'm pretty sure no one wants a biased emotional bitch to help lead the way.

Fuck, things that I have modded/admin'd are now dead. I'm pretty sure you don't want me pulling Herocraft in a downward spiral. Shit happens.

I am about to read the post but will say : Are you f retarded why would my camp be allowed to be destroyed and yours not ? anly because i am a raider and kill dudes every now and then.

Read first, then comment. It'll save everyone a migraine.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

Seriously, I don't know about you guys, but I think lowering the PVP gain for killing crafters should be something to think about. Quiet frankly, all these assholes spawn camping are basically farming exp by killing us straight from the beds. Killing crafters SHOULDN'T wield such reward. because I swear to god, if I hear the famous "I'm only doing it for exp" excuse again, my head may explode. We have done NOTHING to piss these guys off, yet they feel it makes it OK for them to completely annihilate my townspeople every 3-5 hours? Not cool, assholes. I say once you kill someone once you get no PVP EXP for killing them again. Because I can't even run anymore! Fuckin greyp and shortyy both have /skill jump and i don't even have enough time to recall cuz they just sneak up and mug the shit out of me. My beds have been griefed multiple times, and these "warnings" don't do shit.

And i talked to greyp, besides his "EXP" excuse he kills us because "He has to walk through our town to attack Newerth" and that's complete bullshit, we aren't even in line with Newerth. All we do is run?! We have 5-6 rogues and that isnt even enough because we can't even hit them because their lag. Bring your bullshit somewhere else and attack a town of rogues and warriors, not a bunch of crafters. And another thing Why is Shikoru labeled as "Neutral". By FAR the most evil town on this server. It's like fucking blasphemy except the dragoons get the speed/fly hacks (skill jump) for killing more defenseless crafters, minus the ban.

greyp said this to me when i was pming him: "I won't kill you anymore because you are a crafter, neither will i kill any other crafters in your town"...... Next day greyp and shortyy wipe out my entire town... 100% crafters were on then. And since shortyy got the last hit on me, his claim to keeping his promise was "I didn't kill you, Shortyy did"

Fuckin BS imo. At least make yourself marked as Evil or kick them out of the town. Guard service my ass

 

[Afro7897]

Hang on there cowboy I won't allow my argument to be so easily dismissed.

Say me Dielan Audie Ironee Rob Gab all went on a PK spree, we'd start from zeal in this situation and scout around and setup a camp near some big structures, then start hitting it one at a time, then come in force if we see resistance, once or two of us stay behind and guard the camp. If we get wiped out, we come back and try again. If we want to keep resources (because we're so ''hardcore pvpers'' we have time to build stuff, RIGHT? no.) then we'll move them to a far away location. That's just part of it imho. I think it'll just make things more interesting to see people be ALLOWED to retaliate pretty well against raiders. Not this crap about people in townships being overran by 3-5 bandits when we have 10-15 people on.

I'd also like to say this is a poor example but you get my point. And finally -- Arcadia specifically has mostly non-crafter based classes -- it's just most of the pker's we fought were paladins and just taking turns on ''invulnerability'' against us and the ones on CD were fleeing then recalling if needed to. They were using every effort to gain advantage why shouldn't we be able to at least destroy (and pillage them back?) their beds, chests, and other goods they rightfully stole, and we rightfully steal back. Those types of items shouldn't be bannable by keeping. Hell we should even be able to fill their holes (if they're lazy) back up with other materials so they gotta show some effort in attacking us.

It's not hard. It'd take 10-15 minutes to get back to Arcadia from Zeal, another 10-15 making a place to attack us from on the outskirts. 100 or 200 maybe more blocks away. These guys just don't need to run rampart and cause people to have terrible times playing something that should be fun or exhilarating. PVP can be fun and enjoyable -- if done right. Spawn Camping and being able to mindlessly steal / zerg because we can't retaliate by bunker busting if need be, is just retarding the system. Make things more intricate and things will be more exciting. I gaurentee it.

If anyone who PK's 'amok' the wilds of Herocraft disagrees with this, then it is in my honest opinion you're just trolling and/or a pussy. Show some effort since you obviously don't want to mine or build creatively with a town. Even if you're in a town, that makes it easier to use the system this thread's achieved so far in laying out as far as changes go.

Honestly.
~xexorian

PS.
You can't say 'break a bed and replace'. Walking back isn't a harsh enough punishment against raiders that we can do in retaliation. For a very simple reason, it takes us hours to 'farm' the materials we get, but it only takes them minutes to walk to towns. IF that.

I can also be the first(?) to suggest that small structures that can be built or small caves shouldn't be considered griefing if they took <10 minutes to build. or so. I'd deem anything 'small' as <25 blocks x <25 blocks. This is the same regioning prowess you get as a donor, so anything smaller than that should definitely be griefable in the wild if it appears to be a raid camp. (As in multiple beds of small or big parties of raiders) -- if it looks like someones house and has a sign saying such, maybe leave it alone, unless you chase a bunch of raiders back to it and the signs' lying . Only structures using real building materials and show effort should even be considered when observed @ for griefing issues. And ALSO structures that are in the process of being built.

Regardless, leniency is our most powerful tool against them at the moment.

Stop right there. No matter what the circumstances in minecraft you should win a fight when you have those kinds of numbers on your side (with or without heroes) not to mention you say most of the classes in your town were non-crafter classes to which I would have to ask, what the hell is going on? Fight fire with fire. If people need to change classes to defend their town they should be more than willing to when you're getting you asses handed to you unless you would rather quit and I'm not seeing many other options since Kain seems adamant on the matter. I prefer the former. I find it admirable that people are so concerned with the happenings of the server but some seem too quick to turn to heated, emotional debate that will sadly get them nothing. Either way I cannot agree with anybody's requisition for change when you have not done absolutely everything or damn near close to help yourself. The ability to do so is within your grasp.

 

[Kainzo]

Several of these issues will be resolved when Regions come up - get your town lists in order. They should have been up days ago but we've been a -little- busy here.

 

[Dielan9999]

Several of these issues will be resolved when Regions come up - get your town lists in order. They should have been up days ago but we've been a -little- busy here.

Praise be to Kainzo!

 

[Brutalacerate]

@Shenorai
You're such an asshole, but that's why I love you. You tell it like it is, much like myself.

@IkaosI
Be careful.

 

[MatTripp]

Honestly kain Regions should have been worked out before the map wipe. It would have fixed a lot of the BS that has been happening in the server and would have stopped a lot of the PE's. Who cares if the map wipe was delayed a few weeks, at least things would have been up and running instead of us being in a limbo state on the server.

 

[Xanipher]

For the record it wasn't just beds you broke, it was crafting tables, furnaces, and their chests.

 

[Xanipher]

Shit like this is the reason why I've taken a liking to simply browsing for new single-player mods to try out.

If anything, the current Herocraft laws seems aimed at rewarding the trolls and punishing those who actually build something even remotely impressive, yet get raped out the ass for the stuff they worked for.

"Sorry, you can't take your shit back from raiders because we'll roll you back for breaking blocks that were stolen from you."

...excuse me? Why is this allowed?

If anything, this whole thing is getting out of hand. Or rather, has been out of hand but it's too much of a hassle to actually do something about it.

When people petition shit, I don't know the ENTIRE story, I only found it it was a raiders camp after, I'd appreciate it if you put yourselves in our shoes. I DO NOT HAVE TIME, to research every single goddamned long ass story behind people's motivations. For all I knew it might have been xex raiding THEIR home area. I can't be biased, a grief is a grief, no matter its proximity or purpose. Sure raid back, take your stuff back, as long as they didn't place it, but don't break their shit in retaliation. Until Kainzo says otherwise, that's the way I have to operate.

Yes, I was the one that submitted the recommendation to rollback xex, I didn't like it, and I didn't want to have to because I consider him a friend, but this is my job and I won't play favourites.

My personal opinion is far different than what I had to do. I don't like the pvp rules, I don't like pvp period, I despise the idea of pvp enabled towns. And I would love to destroy raiders bases. I think raiders and pvpers ruin the game for me, I can't do the one thing that I find fun and relaxing. It fucking sucks but I'm just trying to follow the correct rules for everyone.

 

[RedKhan]

From my brief experience with the server and the new map I can tell that "Raiders" are easily the most annoying part of the game, I spent a good few hours today trying to set up my first little house, because every 5-10 minutes a group would show up and kill me and others with Diamond weapons.

PVP is obviously a mainstay of any hardcore server, but it needs limits, or it's no longer "Hardcore" it's just poorly put together. I hope the region rules will tackle this properly. I also hope that there will be a way of preventing one huge superpower from dominating the server. I think a general damage nerf could go a long way in preventing this kind of harassment, would allow peaceful players to at least whittle down their opponents health instead of being dead before they know they are under attack.

Also to the above mod who did the rollback "I DO NOT HAVE TIME, to research every single goddamned long ass story behind people's motivations." Sounds like a poor attitude to have, perhaps your job is better suited to somebody who does have time to take things case by case.

 

[gabizou]

My personal opinion is far different than what I had to do. I don't like the pvp rules, I don't like pvp period, I despise the idea of pvp enabled towns. And I would love to destroy raiders bases. It fucking sucks but I'm just trying to follow the correct rules for everyone.

Well said. In defense of staff, whenever someone submits a pe about greifing, its more or less a one sided story, I simply look at it and if the damageis big enough, roll the person back (or in some cases, wehere chests were taken but the items weren't, and there are holes in the walls). I'll submit the pe for rollback and warn the person (not exactly sure how to warn people about greifing like that, generally mods do a better job). So in respect to staff, when we review a greifing pe, we don't know anything other than who did it and where and how long ago they did it. There is no favorites and to put it simply, raiders camps under townships can technically be greifing if they destroy enough of the land to make their camp out of furnaces. honestly, I'm waiitng for regions to come up before I actually start caring about security, because any measures I make, will simply be bypassed by some idiot's dirt pillar or hole under a wall.

Then again, you have some petitions about 2 block greifing, it is still greifing but for christ's sake, don't make a petition saying its big greifing when its faster to repair than submitting a petition about it.