[General] stealing in towns

[frostygunna]

I know the general rules are no pvp in towns and no stealing from chests in towns. But why? Im going to bring up some quick points on why i think stealing should be allowed.

Stealing ----

1) When i hear about someone residing in a town who has been stolen from, i hear the general statement from admins that its the Mayors fault for not protecting the chest. Blame the Mayor and then nothing ends up getting replaced. Or you can donate and protect your chests.

Which makes sense and if situations like these are been handled like this already, why not just make stealing available in towns?

2) If your Mayor is doing their job properly you have nothing to worry about anyways.

3) This server has its claim that its a hardcore server, having massive places where a person can be and stay without being stolen from or be at any risk at all totally contradicts this statement.

PVP in towns ----

Im just going to add this quickly, i dont see why this isnt allowed. I think if you cannot protect the people inside your walls maybe you shouldnt of put them up in the first place. This would promote allies as well as larger populated kingdoms instead of many smaller towns and cities which become ghost towns and/or abandoned.

Im curious to see what people think on this matter. Cheers eh!

 

[MattMellander]

Being an efficient town lwcer, i like this idea, the pvp, also, but my walls are only half done so yaaaah...

 

[Ilsyde]

Again, we're back to this argument.

Both can be toggled with flags and simple commands (LWC to protect, region flag to disable PvP) so if these aren't set up properly then in my opinion it's the sloppy mayor's fault and he/she has to take all the blame for it.

Then again, rules don't agree with my view so this isn't how things work in-game

 

[carmeops]

yeah, since we have mods protection that allow us to protect chests/to protect against pvp/creeper/monsters
ans since mayor have the power to use those commands, i thinks it should be fair to allow pvp and stealing in town: it's mayor job to counter that


but well, mods can be broked sometime, so only a strong server rules can protect towns

 

[Ilsyde]

Forgot to add that currently, mayors have no responsibilities at all (apart from advertising the settlement and keeping their township topic up-to-date), it only boils down to "get some new players to join you, have 2500c and you're a mayor woooo!! nobody cares what you do after"
They should work harder than that to remain a mayor. If they get too sloppy with LWC, region, protecting their citizens and residents (by paying and hiring city guards), activeness etc. then the citizens should only blame their mayor, elect a new leader or just leave the town instead of cowering behind the safety of "noPvP-nostealing" rules.

 

[McGreed]

The thing is that people should be allowed to steal, but if that's so, they should also take punishment if they are caught in the act and there isn't any at the moment. So unless we get the possibility to jail people, I think this works the best.

 

[frostygunna]

I dont think there really needs to be a punishment like jail because its so easy to be immune from thieves. All it requires is having a non lazy mayor or donating.

I just think as of right now it doesnt seem like stealing from towns is being punished in any way unless someone griefed something. So why not just remove the rule.

 

[McGreed]

You are still a thief even if its an unlocked chest. Just saying that "It wasn't locked" is the worse excuse, if you don't want to be punished for doing something wrong, then don't do it. Don't see why people feel entitled to do something wrong without any consequences.

 

[frostygunna]

Its not the fact that people dont want to be punished, or that wasnt a good idea, its the fact that these punishments like jail would require a whole bunch of coding or roleplaying and just seem difficult and unrealistic to implement as of right now considering each patch breaks the plugins and this in fact is not a roleplay server.

Im trying to be realistic here and basing a suggestion on something already happens and really goes unpunished and is blamed on the mayor. Not to mention that this is meant to be a hardcore server and anything to get some of these safe zone restrictions down i think is a move for the better.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

I know the general rules are no pvp in towns and no stealing from chests in towns. But why? Im going to bring up some quick points on why i think stealing should be allowed.

Stealing ----

1) When i hear about someone residing in a town who has been stolen from, i hear the general statement from admins that its the Mayors fault for not protecting the chest. Blame the Mayor and then nothing ends up getting replaced. Or you can donate and protect your chests.

Which makes sense and if situations like these are been handled like this already, why not just make stealing available in towns?

2) If your Mayor is doing their job properly you have nothing to worry about anyways.

3) This server has its claim that its a hardcore server, having massive places where a person can be and stay without being stolen from or be at any risk at all totally contradicts this statement.

PVP in towns ----

Im just going to add this quickly, i dont see why this isnt allowed. I think if you cannot protect the people inside your walls maybe you shouldnt of put them up in the first place. This would promote allies as well as larger populated kingdoms instead of many smaller towns and cities which become ghost towns and/or abandoned.

Im curious to see what people think on this matter. Cheers eh!

I'm going to put a few points in this as a person who has been a mayor for almost two months and now heads the Kingdom of ORE.

First and foremost, I have a life and when I am on Herocraft, I do not want to spend every waking moment dealing with my citizens having problems with stealing and PvP. I will lay that out as an initial base for my thoughts.

1. Why not making stealing available in towns? Why not? Because players pay 2,500 coins for a safe haven, that's why. The township system and its later upgrades are all based on paying for a safe zone. Citizens can work together, not worry about being stolen from, and not worry about rampant PvPers raiding their city. Once again, I can not sit there and run around LWCing everyone's chests day in and day out; it gets boring and monotonous for the mayor.

2. Here is the point where you are absolutely correct. If I do my job correctly, everything will be fine. The problem with your concept, however, is that as towns grow bigger, and later into kingdoms where I am dealing with a collection of towns, the amount of time I need to spend doing menial mayor labor exponentially grows. This is not fun nor does it entice people to become mayors of larger, grander cities. I would like to remind you once again that I am not able to constantly be on running the show.

3. Your argument sounds logical at first, but shows fallacies later on. With your logic, I could also deduce that harassment, griefing, and destructive community behavior would also be fine as they are hardcore. This server has a no holds barred in stealing and PvPing around the world, except in a few hot spots where players have decided it is worth it to build towns and thus set up safe zones. Players are at risk, I was stolen from 3 times before I went and set up residence in a town. When I say stolen from, I am talking about thousands of coins worth of gold and diamonds as well as most of my tools and other resources. Towns are safe zones for a reason, and should stay as such.

4. PvP in towns is just silly; it promotes harassment and inhibits any creativity due to players feeling unsafe when building structures. It also creates repetitive labor which is unneeded on an advanced server with a mature community. If you want to PvP, most of the map is PvP free and open for you to PvP. If you want to build, you have to pay 2,500 coins to make a small building area where you are safe from harassment.

 

[Angusward]

On top of that, PvPers have all the advantage, because there is almost no consequence at all for death. As a result, the PvPers just keep coming and coming because if they die, they can just pick up a new set of weapons and off they go again. Building, on the other hand, is based on efficiency and time. Having a few PvPers around going nuts and killing everyone and coming back no matter how many times they are killed is very inefficient. Making the player lose a few PvP levels for PvP death (including traps) may make them back off a little.

PvPers have nothing to lose, builders have a lot to lose, especially if working with expensive blocks. You say don't use them, I say Minecraft is primarily about BUILDING, not your precious PvP. Not that I mind PvP, as such. I just don't believe that opening the whole world to PvP is a good idea in a game about building. PvP is fine in its place, but people need safe places to build too.

 

[frostygunna]

Its good to hear from the other side however all my points are still valid.

1) Right now nothing really is being done to punish the people who stole from towns, the Mayor is being blamed. Ive said this in many occasions. So its not a safe zone to begin with. You are talking as if right now you cannot steal from towns. As of right now you arent suppose to but it does happen.

2) You can easily assign some of your duties to your citizens instead of doing it all yourself. Im not sure what major duties you have.

It sounds you dont like doing Mayor duties at all. If you dont like doing the jobs as a Mayor, small or large, maybe you should reconsider being one.

3) See One. The main difference here is harassment, griefing and destructive of community behavior are all being punished and people get banned for that.

My definition of "hardcore" is based around the current the rule set of the server and which rules are currently being upheld and which arent. So i really dont see how your definition or what youve deduced holds any connection to mine.

4) See this is where eventually i think the whole pvp system will have to be worked out and i dont want to even touch on all the options because thats a discussion in its self. I think you cant have a war server and have every town be a safe haven from pvp. That really just makes the idea of war useless.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

Its good to hear from the other side however all my points are still valid.

1) Right now nothing really is being done to punish the people who stole from towns, the Mayor is being blamed. Ive said this in many occasions. So its not a safe zone to begin with. You are talking as if right now you cannot steal from towns. As of right now you arent suppose to but it does happen.

2) You can easily assign some of your duties to your citizens instead of doing it all yourself. Im not sure what major duties you have.

It sounds you dont like doing Mayor duties at all. If you dont like doing the jobs as a Mayor, small or large, maybe you should reconsider being one.

3) See One. The main difference here is harassment, griefing and destructive of community behavior are all being punished and people get banned for that.

My definition of "hardcore" is based around the current the rule set of the server and which rules are currently being upheld and which arent. So i really dont see how your definition or what youve deduced holds any connection to mine.

4) See this is where eventually i think the whole pvp system will have to be worked out and i dont want to even touch on all the options because thats a discussion in its self. I think you cant have a war server and have every town be a safe haven from pvp. That really just makes the idea of war useless.

1. I've reported stealing and people have gotten banned, thus the point is null. If you are receiving results that are not like that, then maybe you are going about reporting it wrong. If you want to stay on this server, you can't steal from towns.

2. I love being a mayor; I just have many extracurriculars, I weight lift everyday, and I work. I don't have 8 hours a day to deal with other people getting stolen from and PvP'd. There is a difference between not liking the job of mayor and not being able to spend 8 hours a day dealing with the city and having no time to do my own things.

3. Your original statement conflicts with the server rules. You show that you are for thievery in towns, yet there is a rule to not steal in towns. Ask some of my members, if someone gets stolen from an admin is contacted and the situation is taken care of. I don't deal with many thefts as I LWC most things, but the two that we have had to deal with within the last few weeks were dealt with swiftly and the involved thieves were taken care of.

4. Multiverse, FFA PvP world will have war. The main server will come into more of a community building role which it should be. PvP in towns just causes problems for all parties involved except for rampant Pkers who are borderline harassing.

 

[frostygunna]

1) Well as of just before the 20th we both have had a very different experiences because, i wont name who was saying these things unless i have to, specifically stated "Blame your Mayor" and a rant about how lazy Mayors are to blame.

2) Im curious what Mayor duties take up 8 hours of your time a day? because i hear Mayors really dont have much responsibility. Im curious why you cannot have some of your citizens take over some of your responsibility.

Edit - ill be more clear "the amount of time I need to spend doing menial mayor labor exponentially grows" that doesnt sound like someone who loves being a Mayor. What are your duties, in which you cant find time to protect chests for your citizens? Im not sure what exactly your idea of being a Mayor is.

3) Obviously there is some grey area here then where some people are being punished and some people arent. I have never heard of a person being banned from stealing from a town who HASNT griefed it in anyway.

4) I know about the FFA server, i dont know how it will work out. Im not going to comment on it.

 

[Angusward]

My point still stands. Make death something to fear and avoid for PvPers and your thoughts will have some validity. Otherwise, guards posted in towns have no use whatsoever except to try and fight a never ending stream of enemies; there's no disencouragement because there's no fear of death.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

Hyperbole on the 8 hours, because I clearly don't have 8 hours to spend being a mayor each day. Mayors make their own responsibility, I look into any public projects as well as private housing for my citizens, keep up to date on the rules, manage our website, LWC chests, set out plots, make general discussion to keep the populous engaged, answer any questions that are given to me, work on public projects myself, gather materials for public projects through both mining and buying them from other players, work on private projects for players who need help, help on labor for the betterment of the kingdom's cities around our location, act as a representative for our community both in-game and on the forums, update our forum posts on the forums, answer threads like these in ways that would most reflect the views of our citizens and benefit our kingdom, and lastly work to double check that we are recruiting members and that our funds are being kept in check and hopefully growing.

I haven't even built a house yet in my kingdom; I have plans to, but it isn't on my priority list.


Now, to actually address your points.

1. You had one bad experience, get over it. I have never had a problem with the staff being unresponsive over two months; I think you are one of few outliers in the system.

2. Hyperbole as stated above, I did, however, list many of the things I do throughout a day. That is excluding the things I do for my personal self to enjoy the game on a personal level.

@Edit: I will admit it, LWCing chests and answering questions all day gets mundane. Maybe you should try being a mayor before you go and instantly paint a broad brush and say that I don't enjoy being a mayor simply because I don't get highs off hitting an LWC macro on 20 chests.

3. Statement from 1, no grey areas I have found thus far. Also, I will tell you about one now. About two weeks ago one of my citizens was stolen from, I reported it to the admin. He had left a sign that enabled the admins to track him easily and he was promptly taken care of. No griefing, just stealing. A more recent example was a citizen who did not inform me that his chests were not locked after he moved and was stolen from; he reported it and it was taken care of. As I said, you are a part of a small percentile of the population that has received a bad experience under these rules. Just because one person dies of drinking too much water doesn't mean water should be banned. While that is an inverse example to what we are dealing with, it illustrates how you are overreacting from your small sample.

4. FFA server - Free PvP, less builders getting owned by PvPrs who have nothing to lose, more PvPing by people who want to PvP.
Main Server - More building by people who want to build wonderful things, less builders getting owned by PvPers who have nothing to lose.

 

[Kainzo]

busy atm - but ill read this in a bit.

 

[frostygunna]

1) I appreciate the information on your experiences however you got to stop with your assumptions. I never said i was the one stolen from and it didnt say it happened just once. Im not going to comment on this one any further because its just a personal attack and a assumption.

2) I read what you do and my point still stands, have a citizen(s) take over the responsibility of handling some of your things. If you have a kingdom with multiple cities there is no reason why not to spread the responsibility if you feel you cant do them all to the best of your ability.

As for the last part of your statement its getting dangerously close to another personal attack so i wont respond.

3) I dont know where to begin with that, there was a assumption in your example that its only happened once and some name calling. I dont see how im over reacting, it was a suggestion, and the multiple times i noticed admins say blame the mayor, it didnt even involve me. Just because you have a certain experience doesnt mean there is no grey area and that im a part of this of this outlier statistic group.

Your posts have drifted from valid points to assumptions and personal attacks on each point. Though i do try to understand your points and i do not mind a aggressive discussion, having most of your post include assumptions and name calling usually ends up in a bad situation.

---

My point still stands. Make death something to fear and avoid for PvPers and your thoughts will have some validity. Otherwise, guards posted in towns have no use whatsoever except to try and fight a never ending stream of enemies; there's no disencouragement because there's no fear of death.

Hey sorry, i totally missed this post. Like i mentioned pvp is a whole other bag of beans and getting into that one can have a huge discussion. Which i really didnt want the focus of this thread to be about. I understand that maybe death will have a loss of experience when levels come out. Im not 100% sure. But i do understand where you are coming from.

 

[AlexDaParrot]

Considering you seem to skim what I am saying, I will summarize it quite clearly:
Stealing in towns would be a negative for the server because it would not cause a decline in complaints, but instead it would increase the rate at which people in leadership positions burnout as well as the complaints would still remain constant. Stealing is something people dislike and the idea that the last stronghold for civilized and respectful gameplay should be declared as an zone of unruly and otherwise disrupt gameplay is an abomination. Towns are a place where players can connect as a community, build things together, and work together. Stealing damages many bonds as it fuels distrust in a community which causes players to become unhappy and leave the server or resort with unwarranted negative actions against innocent people. The situations in this case would further the need for more rules to control dissenters in an unruly society. To keep people organized as well as playing the server, the server must present a friendly environment for various creeds. If a builder comes to a PvP server, he will leave. If a PvP player comes to a build server, he will leave. The server currently offers a fine balance between most of the world being PvP and small safezones that players utilize to make quality structures. The need for towns to be as safe as possible, I think, is exemplified by the structures that towns have built thus far. I see few great structures and monuments in the wilderness, but there are many all over the world safely located within the township system.

Delegating duties to citizens is quite idealistic. I have citizens managing our money, building structures, planning our future, gathering resources, and furthering our community. It is, however, naive to think that I would simply let them go and leave the possibility for them to go ashtray with their duties. I see myself as a shepard in this sense, watching over the flock and reigning them in if need be. While delegation of duties is an excellent concept, people can not remain unchecked. Unchecked players tend to cause more problems for the city than they defer from it.


- I also do not see the conflict you are bringing up if you have not faced this conflict yourself. I would like to note that most systems of judging do not even accept cases until they have been proven to have a real application by a real plaintiff. If this has happened to you, then I guess you suppose a valid argument. The vagueness that your line of complaint happens to follows only makes your case weaker.

I am willing to assume by your join date and your references that you are relatively new to the server. Due to this, I am also willing to assume that you may have not been fed the entire story. Players tend to overreact when stolen from and thus would probably give a biased point of view, a bias point of view which you are using as an example for completely legalizing the source of their pain. I don't see how you will fix the problem of people complaining about being stolen from by legalizing it. If I was a player whom was stolen from, I would be an avid supporter of further regulation on stealing instead of turning against it and making it into a legalized practice. Legalizing it is simply illogical in the situation that you presented.

- I apologize for any personal remarks I made, but due to the nature of how this would effect what I do as well as the amount of time I spend doing certain duties, I feel this issue would only cause pain for myself as well as my community, and thus I must adamantly show discourse towards your suggestion.

 

[frostygunna]

I did read most of your post until you got into your assumptions again. You try to give these intellectual examples about systems of law and how it makes your statement stronger and how it makes mine weaker yet you follow it up immediately assumptions about me and/or the situation. You seem to be all over the map. I apologize but i cant take that kind of opinion seriously.

Im not sure where to start with this, assumptions make weak arguments, it makes them even weaker if they are wrong, which they are and have been every single time youve made one. I had pointed this out politely in my previous post yet you still seem to do it.

I understand your point of view but im not going to read through things where you try to sound intelligent then immediately jump to using assumptions and constant passive personal attacks like they have any validity in any discussion. Once again i dont mind a aggressive conversation but not when posts are literally littered with this stuff. For example youre very first sentence how im not reading your posts or how i must be new and i basically dont know what im talking about.

I think you are lucky that i even read the first few paragraphs considering your last posts personal attacks and the first line of your new post. I know your opinion on the matter and id appreciate it if you let other people express their opinion, if they do feel like it which i dont think will happen lol and if you can try to stray away from more assumptions about me and verbal attacks towards me.