Suggestion DK Suggestion.

[RShooter2000]

Re-opening this thread. My goal is to get us from this:


to this:



What we lack:

Compared to a paladin...we have to invest way more points into too many areas. We have lower armor rating (unless we sacrifice some dmg to get it), lower hp (one again sacrifice), and we are just selfish, like this cookie monster guy. More than anything I just want to see better cc and group utility so they can properly be classified as tanks.


Reliable source of damage. One thing is....to be able to do "good damage" we rely on a 15min cd, bump harmtouch down to 2min or lower and reduce the dmg by 30-70. 15min class..... (layhands is 15min but its like an extra life, different than a dps spell).

Group benefits

Remove Curse, add in "Discordant Phase" or some other name. Passive aura, 5%-8% hit miss debuff on enemies within 2-3 block radius of you. You're presence instills "fear" in you're enemies, causing them to shake during combat....making some hits miss.

GOOD source of CC: Solution, Terror...make AOE with just the distortion of vision and Beguile effect lasting 1.5sec. Shouldn't someone "flee" In terror? Makes sense.

Thanks, tired, have a nice day.

Unless DreadKnight gets Layhands it will never be on par with Paladin. If you attack a Paladin on live, you will HarmTouch, empathy, decay, soulleech, curse, bash, and maybe terror. Paladin has a decent amount of interrupts, it has a reflect, it has a ward, and it has a stun + slow. If you can burst a Paladin down low enough to kill them they will Layhands, now your HarmTouch is on cooldown and they are back to full health. You are out of Mana and low health, because of the stuns and reflects. You are basically dead. Thing is though DreadKnight is not that bad, it can kill Dragoons and Berserkers, basically all of the rogue classes, and some caster classes/healing classes.

 

[RShooter2000]

Also silences for those who don't know. (the blind)

Yeah blinds are really good.

 

[Egorh]

Dreadknight should not be beating Casters unless it gets the jump on them or has them in the corner. That goes for most warriors (simply put magic damage>armor). But it still has its tools to help it beat the pesky kiting classes; Empathy (strong nuke and slow), Terror (silence, slow, blind), and ManaFreeze. The only skill out of these 3 that is lacking in 'usefulness' is ManaFreeze. In theory the skill is good. They do not get any mana regeneration for 10s (seems strong), but it simply does not do enough to do any actual harm to the healers/casters with large mana pools. I suggest giving this skill another effect; Reduce the target's wisdom to 0. Although that effect is not going to really hurt Casters it provides counterplay to healers. Since Healers dominate group fights at the moment, giving DK a skill that negates some of that healing makes it more appealing choice to take in a fight

Cleric-Divine Blessing
35 Wisdom: 233 HP to nearby party members
40 Wisdom: 250 HP to nearby party members

7 Wisdom (base): 142 HP to nearby party members
0 Wisdom: 119 HP to nearby party members

At the moment the clerics I fight with use 40 wisdom so I am going to go off of that

250 HP x 5 party members = 1250 HP
119 HP x 5 party members = 595 HP

1250 - 595 = 655

There you go! The Dreadknight just prevented 655 HP for the enemy party. Anything with counterplay to healers is going to be strong because if you make their healer useless you just about won the teamfight.

 

[Jasquan]

snip- Although that effect is not going to really hurt Casters it provides counterplay to healers.-snip

How is less mana regen not going to hurt casters? Just wondering

 

[Solidze]

The issue with Dreadknight vs casters/kiters is that they have no mobility to keep up with them (as it should be) no ranged skills to damage them with (acceptable) and no cc to keep them close (the real issue)
Slap some ranged slows on Dreadknight and it will help the class a ton

The worst thing dk has at the moment is that is brings nothing beneficial to parties like a paladin. It needs a debuff aura or something.

 

[Egorh]

How is less mana regen not going to hurt casters? Just wondering

It already gives you 0 mana regen. Having 0 wisdom along with that reduces healing capabilities (0 wisdom is not 0 mana regeneration-I think it varies from class to class but 0 mana regen would be -wisdom)

 

[Solidze]

Dreadknight should not be beating Casters unless it gets the jump on them or has them in the corner. That goes for most warriors (simply put magic damage>armor). But it still has its tools to help it beat the pesky kiting classes; Empathy (strong nuke and slow), Terror (silence, slow, blind), and ManaFreeze.

But a paladin should wreck casters?

 

[Egorh]

But a paladin should wreck casters?

Paladin is not a good comparison, at all. It is very OP/broken atm

 

[Solidze]

Paladin is not a good comparison, at all. It is very OP/broken atm

Oh but it is, it's kit has been nearly the same for a long time now. Dk's haven't seen a kit change since.... Hmm. Paladins have more base up and armor, figured dk's would have higher base Armor or hp at least. Dk's are gimped through stat points and group utility. We have to invest points in almost every stat but sacrifice too much in return compared to pally. People wanted paladins over dk for tournaments since forever due to that kit. Group heals, mass single and aoe cc, yummy. Also paladins are only broken because they're base weight and hp is too high for they're kit. Nerf paladin weight to 50-53, and hp to 780-820'ish and buff DK's weight to 60-63.

 

[Egorh]

Oh but it is, it's kit has been nearly the same for a long time now. Dk's haven't seen a kit change since.... Hmm. Paladins have more base up and armor, figured dk's would have higher base Armor or hp at least. Dk's are gimped through stat points and group utility. We have to invest points in almost every stat but sacrifice too much in return compared to pally. People wanted paladins over dk for tournaments since forever due to that kit. Group heals, mass single and aoe cc, yummy.

One is meant to peel and be defensive, hence the defensive and support skills. DK is the offensive one. Hence why it has damaging skills instead of the support ones like reckoning.
|--------------------------------|--------------------------|
Under | Balanced OP
Dk Paladin
Bring DK up to par with Paladin is not balancing; they would both be OP
I also said it was a bad comparison due to the fact of how unbalanced Paladin is atm.

What Dk has to kill casters: Empathy Manafreeze Terror
What Paladin has: Shield Reflect Magicward (I don't think I've ever seen this skill used seriously) Reckoning Divinestun

Take Magicward out of there because it is very rarely used, and shield reflect too because if the caster is aware of what is happening they can stop whatever it is they were doing.

Dk in theory has better means to deal with casters it is just that Paladin is OP.

For the Harmtouch vs Layhands
They are unbalanced skills. Sure, Layhands outdoes Harmtouch in every aspect but in every matchup that is not Paladin vs Dk if one of those skills are used it is practically a free win. I am personally not a fan of 'Ultimate' skills and they probably will not be balanced until every class has one.

Dk Attributes
Str-Depends on your playstyle, you do not really need it
Con-Yes
End-Yes
Agi-Nope
Int-Yes
Wis-Some
Cha-No

Pala
Str-Yes
Con-Yes
End-Yes
Agi-Nope
Int-Nope
Wis-Depends on what you want to do
Cha-Yes

Want Dreadknight to be a viable option in teamfights? Then it needs more 'usefulness'. Although a complete rework would be awesome for a lot of classes there is not really anyone to do it. Due to that all the Balance team normally gets to work with are numbers, and there is only so much you can change about the class through numbers. You could buff DreadAura, buff Manafreeze to be anti-healer (my idea), or buff Manafreeze to be an AOE.

 

[Solidze]

One is meant to peel and be defensive, hence the defensive and support skills. DK is the offensive one. Hence why it has damaging skills instead of the support ones like reckoning.
|--------------------------------|--------------------------|
Under | Balanced OP
Dk Paladin
Bring DK up to par with Paladin is not balancing; they would both be OP
I also said it was a bad comparison due to the fact of how unbalanced Paladin is atm.

What Dk has to kill casters: Empathy Manafreeze Terror
What Paladin has: Shield Reflect Magicward (I don't think I've ever seen this skill used seriously) Reckoning Divinestun

Take Magicward out of there because it is very rarely used, and shield reflect too because if the caster is aware of what is happening they can stop whatever it is they were doing.

Dk in theory has better means to deal with casters it is just that Paladin is OP.

For the Harmtouch vs Layhands
They are unbalanced skills. Sure, Layhands outdoes Harmtouch in every aspect but in every matchup that is not Paladin vs Dk if one of those skills are used it is practically a free win. I am personally not a fan of 'Ultimate' skills and they probably will not be balanced until every class has one.

Dk Attributes
Str-Depends on your playstyle, you do not really need it
Con-Yes
End-Yes
Agi-Nope
Int-Yes
Wis-Some
Cha-No

Pala
Str-Yes
Con-Yes
End-Yes
Agi-Nope
Int-Nope
Wis-Depends on what you want to do
Cha-Yes

Want Dreadknight to be a viable option in teamfights? Then it needs more 'usefulness'. Although a complete rework would be awesome for a lot of classes there is not really anyone to do it. Due to that all the Balance team normally gets to work with are numbers, and there is only so much you can change about the class through numbers. You could buff DreadAura, buff Manafreeze to be anti-healer (my idea), or buff Manafreeze to be an AOE.

I don't want DK to become a paladin, but one is figured as a holy knight, and the other evil. They are similar that they are both caster tanks, but one outdoes the other in certain areas. But both should collide in bringing at least ONE beneficial spell to they're groups (which dk doesn't really), by just being in the role of a tank. You obviously can't force someone to attack these tanks, so they need that group benefit/cc to be there because the damage will never be over the top to make groups focus them. All I hope is to see something group benefit wise added to DK, hell you talked about a healing debuff....how about a healing debuff aura. Does no damage...but at least provides something to counter it's other part. But as I said it can start here by...nerfing paladin weight to 50-53, and hp to 780-820'ish and buff DK's weight to 60-63 (I see Dreadknights wearing MASSIVE heavy armor, thicker than a paladin....with skulls everywhere to intimidate the enemy). They're base weight and hp is too high for they're kit, if this is done on a test realm.....this could solve the issue with paladins apparently being "OP."

 

[Egorh]

I don't want DK to become a paladin, but one is figured as a holy knight, and the other evil. They are similar that they are both caster tanks, but one outdoes the other in certain areas. But both should collide in bringing at least ONE beneficial spell to they're groups (which dk doesn't really), by just being in the role of a tank. You obviously can't force someone to attack these tanks, so they need that group benefit/cc to be there because the damage will never be over the top to make groups focus them. All I hope is to see something group benefit wise added to DK, hell you talked about a healing debuff....how about a healing debuff aura. Does no damage...but at least provides something to counter it's other part. But as I said it can start here by...nerfing paladin weight to 50-53, and hp to 780-820'ish and buff DK's weight to 60-63 (I see Dreadknights wearing MASSIVE heavy armor, thicker than a paladin....with skulls everywhere to intimidate the enemy). They're base weight and hp is too high for they're kit, if this is done on a test realm.....this could solve the issue with paladins apparently being "OP."

The healing debuff is 'AOE' in its own way. By reducing the cleric's wisdom to 0 you effect their healing to everyone (cause and effect). In my opinion Paladin is not OP due to its base armor weight, it is the short CD on divine stun and strike being too strong (but this thread is not the place for paladin balance)

 

[pure_autism]

Unless DreadKnight gets Layhands it will never be on par with Paladin. If you attack a Paladin on live, you will HarmTouch, empathy, decay, soulleech, curse, bash, and maybe terror. Paladin has a decent amount of interrupts, it has a reflect, it has a ward, and it has a stun + slow. If you can burst a Paladin down low enough to kill them they will Layhands, now your HarmTouch is on cooldown and they are back to full health. You are out of Mana and low health, because of the stuns and reflects. You are basically dead. Thing is though DreadKnight is not that bad, it can kill Dragoons and Berserkers, basically all of the rogue classes, and some caster classes/healing classes.

For the record, Berserker is like the only class I CAN beat a DK with.

 

[JupiterRome]

Don't Think this guy understands Paladin is Broken and OP as fuck and Paladin is Tank/Healer (IMO) Dk is Tank/Damage

 

[Faunherer]

Don't Think this guy understands Paladin is Broken and OP as fuck and Paladin is Tank/Healer (IMO) Dk is Tank/Damage

we aren't really much of tanks. Sure, we have the hp and the armor for it but we have no support skills to benefit us or harm the enemy on a larger scale.

 

[JupiterRome]

we aren't really much of tanks. Sure, we have the hp and the armor for it but we have no
support skills to benefit us or harm the enemy on a larger scale.

Why do people think tanks need cc/support abilities, harm touch and empathy is basically an arcane blast, can't harm enemy on large scale at all right? Soulleech heals you and does like 100 damage usually, yeah doesnt benefit you at all. Honestly Dreadknight getting a support ability would be stupid IMO. Paladin is the support tank, Dreadknight is the damage tank.

If you comment about paladins current state that's invalid, I'm not taking an op as fuck classes damage and stuff into account for this, only the role it should be. (Or is/was)

 

[malikdanab]

Why do people think tanks need cc/support abilities, harm touch and empathy is basically an arcane blast, can't harm enemy on large scale at all right? Soulleech heals you and does like 100 damage usually, yeah doesnt benefit you at all. Honestly Dreadknight getting a support ability would be stupid IMO. Paladin is the support tank, Dreadknight is the damage tank.

If you comment about paladins current state that's invalid, I'm not taking an op as fuck classes damage and stuff into account for this, only the role it should be. (Or is/was)

You obviously don't understand how tanks work...just being "tanky" doesn't make you a tank. The point of a tank is to draw fire, support his team, and setup kills. Atm dreadnight is less a tank and more like a durable necro. It doesn't fullfil it's role as a warrior. This is not nessicarly a bad thing, but it feels like it doesn't know what its role is...a problem with many classes. A dreaknight can still "support" but not in the same way as a paladin. Instead of helping it's allies it should hinder it's enemies.

 

[JupiterRome]

You obviously don't understand how tanks work...just being "tanky" doesn't make you a tank. The point of a tank is to draw fire, support his team, and setup kills. Atm dreadnight is less a tank and more
like a durable necro. It doesn't fullfil it's role as a warrior.

Dude this isn't smite/league/dota/dawngate/other mobas

But just gunna say dk has 2 slows one which silences which can support his team by not letting healer heal and the slows set up kills

Dreadknight is a heavy dps tank, due to being the one thing a tank needs to be, TANKY, it's lack of the things you say a tank needs is compensated for by dk having damage, yeah maybe to be a true tank you need those but like in Bastion people said goon was op cuz it was a high dps high mobility TANK but it dosnt have any of the things you listed?

 

[Trazil]

Dk reminds me if Ymir in smite, a tank with good dmg and paladin reminds me of khumba, stun and hard to kill

 

[JupiterRome]

You obviously don't understand how tanks work...just being "tanky" doesn't make you a tank.
The point of a tank is to draw fire, support his team, and setup kills. Atm dreadnight is less a tank and more
like a durable necro. It doesn't fullfil it's role as a warrior. This is not nessicarly a bad thing, but it feels like
it doesn't know what its role is...a problem with many classes. A dreaknight can still "support" but not
in the same way as a paladin. Instead of helping it's allies it should hinder it's enemies.

Pretty much says dk can't support, reads post gets proven wrong and edits his post GG Malik