Suggestion Disciple it hits like a truck and tanks like a ton.....

[Teerian]

You actually just brought up something I had not taken into consideration at all. Gem eating. Should disciples be changed due to this? No, I think not. It is, however, something I had not previously added to my calculations due to the fact that I never use them. I can see how covertly scarfing one down might give you a last moment boost that others could view as class unfairness.

Good counter-argument.

In my experiences, disciple can win a 1v1 against most classes, except specs from the warrior path. Because most of my experiences are based off of 1v1s, I can see why both out points are both valid and biased. In a 1v1 disciple can quickly use all it's stamina to burst out all of their damaging skills, even more now because we can eat gems. Not only does this gives disciple an advantage do to the reticular silence time on flying kick, thus allowing disciple to wreak casters. Against rogues, who mainly have some sort of mobility skill. I have been able to out damage all of rogue's specs besides ninja. Healers are quite easy becase a kick basicly ruins them. Wariors are really hard for disciples though. Their armor basicly makes disciples do 20-40 damage with a blaze road. Although you can easily kite with forcepull and other skills, their hp just drains their mana and stamina.

Note all of this data is pre level expantion

Basically, because disciple can out damage others in some ways or another make them really strong.

Your 1v1 experience seem to mirror mine. It's just as you say about warrior paths. Ninja has always been the most threatening of the rogue classes for me as well, but I have met some rangers and runeblades that made the rest of their class base look like complete newbies. While there are some exceptional casters out there, you can tell they have to work the hardest to make anything happen against a disciple. However, I always shrugged all of this off as intended since I recall someone (perhaps Kainzo?) saying that the server was geared more towards group battles, and that the desired balance format for 1v1 was a rock-paper-scissors style.

The healer specs... are hard to say. For the ones that don't anticipate kick and other disc abilities, I would agree. There are some healers out there, though, that can survive very well.

 

[ThatAintFalco]

=unreliable.



That example actually leads me to a question. Are most of you basing your assumptions that disciples are too strong on 1v1 arena battles?

Some of them. I only use them because they are a fair 1v1.

 

[Teerian]

I suppose, but I'm not sure that's grounds for a loss of class strength if the server is supposed to be balanced around group pvp.

 

[Teerian]

I am aware of the issues with Disciple. Working on some number changes for them.

Still curious about this. What issues, and what kind of changes do you have in mind?

 

[Templar_James]

Go to Suggestions section, type in "Disciple", search titles only and newer than 7th of September. Now, link a single Suggestion thread other than this that complained about Disciples being even powerful at all. So... if Disciple has been "op since the start", why has nobody bothered to suggest any balances for it during this current map? Also, a bit off, but havent you played Dragoon the whole time?

Wow as I stated there were literally 3 players last map that actually knew how to play discipline no one ever wanted to play it for god knows what reason. I mean who wouldn't want to have Jedi powers lol, but people ran into other classes like dk and wizard so more people complained about that the discs because they never ran into them

 

[Templar_James]

I loved disciple as a class, I've played it since last map and I have had so much experience with it. I hate when classes become OP especially ones I like because they get nerfed beyond the point they need to be.

To fix the "OPness" of this class is to do this.

• Nerf DivineWord, give it a higher CD and maybe more Mana cost
• Cut QuiveringPalms damage in half, and lower the range in which it can be used
• Nerf Meditate to only do half Mana but still do the complete Stamina

The reason why I am saying nerf Meditate is because a Disciple can practically out-heal and class at the moment, and for a combat based healer spec that is just not right. Disciples can, and will take on multiple people, perhaps 2 or 3 and even if they don't win, they can always get away with their knockbacks, stuns and other skills they have.

joshtsai macura Templar_James werwew190 - Thoughts?

The only thing that you need to do with disc right now is literally increase the cd on everything by 3-5 seconds and it would be good and maybe even reduce the amount healed

 

[macura]

Teerian Please stop arguing with everyone, pretty much everyone on the thread have all come to the consensus that disciples need to be reworked. And yes, disciples were in fact changed, the change however was not as noticeable because it mainly worked with stamina costs. The stamina costs for disciples were greatly decreased all around, if i remember correctly an example would be forcepull and forcepush. Forcepull and forcepush were at 6 stamina, they now stand at 4 which is one of the lowest stamina costs for any skill in the game. The largest change is that this additional stamina allows disciples to repeatedly combo people by launching them doing incredible skill and fall damage.

 

[Teerian]

Teerian Please stop arguing with everyone, pretty much everyone on the thread have all come to the consensus that disciples need to be reworked.

3-4 people in a single thread think a class is broken, so clearly the class is broken. You heard the man, folks. Next time you stumble upon 3-4 people beating the hell out of someone, don't call the police. They have the numbers, so clearly they are in the right!

*Edited* Too harsh here I suppose. Suffice to say I don't agree with backing down on something I believe in just because I'm outnumbered.

The only thing that you need to do with disc right now is literally increase the cd on everything by 3-5 seconds and it would be good and maybe even reduce the amount healed

Thank God you aren't part of the balance team. I can only imagine the next step to be a removal of chakra, reduction of all weapon damage to a max of 20, and forcepull changed to spawn a chicken on the player's head that then lays an egg before flying away.

And yes, disciples were in fact changed, the change however was not as noticeable because it mainly worked with stamina costs. The stamina costs for disciples were greatly decreased all around, if i remember correctly an example would be forcepull and forcepush. Forcepull and forcepush were at 6 stamina, they now stand at 4 which is one of the lowest stamina costs for any skill in the game. The largest change is that this additional stamina allows disciples to repeatedly combo people by launching them doing incredible skill and fall damage.

The stamina cost seems the same as it always has been. Looking over the wiki which, as far as I can tell, has yet to be updated for the level cap, forcepush/pull are both listed as 4 stamina each.

This once again leads me to my earlier conclusion that people simply aren't used to fighting disciples, and now that people are suddenly trying the class out, others think it's broken. I'm not arguing about this for the sake of arguing. There are better things I could do with my time. I argue because my experiences both playing and fighting against the disciple class as well as factual numbers lead me to believe that all of you calling for a change are wrong.

If the class had an obvious unfairness, I either wouldn't be posting here or I would be agreeing with you. Instead, I see a class that has remained unchanged for MONTHS aside from the addition of the Balance skill now suddenly being called unfair and broken. I don't want to see it changed simply because a small group of people don't enjoy fighting disciples.

Edit: Speaking of weapon damage, for those complaining about blaze rod doing too much damage, remember that it's one of the most (if not THE most) difficult weapons to obtain. Just because a disciple spawns with one in arenas doesn't mean they always have one outside of it.

Checked the disciple wiki page for a date updated. "This page was last modified on 19 February 2013, at 09:51."

 

[Templar_James]

3-4 people in a single thread think a class is broken, so clearly the class is broken. You heard the man, folks. Next time you stumble upon 3-4 people beating the hell out of someone, don't call the police. They have the numbers, so clearly they are in the right!

*Edited* Too harsh here I suppose. Suffice to say I don't agree with backing down on something I believe in just because I'm outnumbered.



Thank God you aren't part of the balance team. I can only imagine the next step to be a removal of chakra, reduction of all weapon damage to a max of 20, and forcepull changed to spawn a chicken on the player's head that then lays an egg before flying away.



The stamina cost seems the same as it always has been. Looking over the wiki which, as far as I can tell, has yet to be updated for the level cap, forcepush/pull are both listed as 4 stamina each.

This once again leads me to my earlier conclusion that people simply aren't used to fighting disciples, and now that people are suddenly trying the class out, others think it's broken. I'm not arguing about this for the sake of arguing. There are better things I could do with my time. I argue because my experiences both playing and fighting against the disciple class as well as factual numbers lead me to believe that all of you calling for a change are wrong.

If the class had an obvious unfairness, I either wouldn't be posting here or I would be agreeing with you. Instead, I see a class that has remained unchanged for MONTHS aside from the addition of the Balance skill now suddenly being called unfair and broken. I don't want to see it changed simply because a small group of people don't enjoy fighting disciples.

Edit: Speaking of weapon damage, for those complaining about blaze rod doing too much damage, remember that it's one of the most (if not THE most) difficult weapons to obtain. Just because a disciple spawns with one in arenas doesn't mean they always have one outside of it.

Checked the disciple wiki page for a date updated. "This page was last modified on 19 February 2013, at 09:51."

Kk tell me why my post was bad cause all you are blabbering about is some chicken on forcepull which I haven't said but thanks for making yourself look like a total douchebag and retard. hats off to you dude. Also you don't seem like a big HC player so try playing for over a year before you say anything about the past of discipline

 

[Dsawemd]

... discipline...

DISCIPLE. sorry you do it all the time and it bothers me.

 

[Teerian]

Kk tell me why my post was bad cause all you are blabbering about is some chicken on forcepull which I haven't said but thanks for making yourself look like a total douchebag and retard. hats off to you dude. Also you don't seem like a big HC player so try playing for over a year before you say anything about the past of discipline

And with that you have successfully made yourself the top idiot of this thread. Congratulations. Just about everything I've seen from you both in-game and on the forums have given me the idea that you're about as intelligent as an exceptionally-dumb rock, so I honestly can't say I'm surprised by any of this.

I've already thoroughly explained my thoughts and backed it all up with numbers, examples, and even occasional descriptions of personal experiences. If you are too inept to have read and understood any of it, you are of no use to this discussion. The only thing you have contributed thus far are ridiculous suggestions that would break the class in a majorly detrimental way, and that is your BEST contribution, if it could even be considered such.

Not a big herocraft player? Huh. I could have sworn I covered that earlier. Oh right. You haven't actually been reading. Moving on.

A douchebag? To people like yourself, sure. I'll take that title. A retard? I hardly think so, but even if I am, remember that you've proven yourself even lower on the totem pole than that. Enjoy.

I tire of playing nice with people who can't offer anything other than "Disc is brokenz! needz nurf! take away this, do this, do that!" with no solid evidence showing that such is the case. I especially tire of the ones that do it while attempting to dismiss my arguments because, in their minds, I'm unknown and thus unqualified despite any facts I produce. If more of you presented your case like Detarbilate has, we would probably have reached some kind of agreement on the class already.

 

[Templar_James]

DISCIPLE. sorry you do it all the time and it bothers me.

Sorry I usually am always use to saying disc priest from wow lawl... :/

 

[Templar_James]

And with that you have successfully made yourself the top idiot of this thread. Congratulations. Just about everything I've seen from you both in-game and on the forums have given me the idea that you're about as intelligent as an exceptionally-dumb rock, so I honestly can't say I'm surprised by any of this.

I've already thoroughly explained my thoughts and backed it all up with numbers, examples, and even occasional descriptions of personal experiences. If you are too inept to have read and understood any of it, you are of no use to this discussion. The only thing you have contributed thus far are ridiculous suggestions that would break the class in a majorly detrimental way, and that is your BEST contribution, if it could even be considered such.

Not a big herocraft player? Huh. I could have sworn I covered that earlier. Oh right. You haven't actually been reading. Moving on.

A douchebag? To people like yourself, sure. I'll take that title. A retard? I hardly think so, but even if I am, remember that you've proven yourself even lower on the totem pole than that. Enjoy.

I tire of playing nice with people who can't offer anything other than "Disc is brokenz! needz nurf! take away this, do this, do that!" with no solid evidence showing that such is the case. I especially tire of the ones that do it while attempting to dismiss my arguments because, in their minds, I'm unknown and thus unqualified despite any facts I produce. If more of you presented your case like Detarbilate has, we would probably have reached some kind of agreement on the class already.

Ill make this short since most of what you said is still boulshit. You have not given any examples of me in game or outside of game talking about something that is op or not and acting like a retard at the same time. Also I don't have the time nor do I care to read all your paragraphs cause most of the time your just repeating yourself.

Thank you good sir for making yourself still look like an asshole and retard by typing more then 4 paragraphs to try to make me look bad.

 

[Colonel Rick]

Teerian has on multiple cases brought up good arguments for Disciples during the "discussion" you bashers have been doing the last couple days. I regularly fight beside a Disciple on the server, and I have yet to see a broken anything. It does support right, but it isn't the healer that Cleric or Mystic is, and it's not like that high damage blaze rod is just growing on trees like some people seem to think does. To be honest, as a group healer, it's only okay, and the Paladin I play can out burst damage it.

I see Forcepush/Forcepull fail on a regular basis in pvp as well, as someone used the Dragoon getting the rubber band effect as a defense to its abilities, that same thought should apply here as well. There are several arguments on this thread that involve quickly dismissing well articulated responses with "because I said so" and then use a similar reason to why they are right. It definitely appears people don't like being beaten and have to find an excuse besides, "I couldn't crush my opponent with the same tactics I use on everyone else, therefore my opponent is cheating, their class is broken, etc."

Disciple fills a good niche somewhere between Paladin and Cleric. Not as tough as a Paladin, not as good of a healer as a Cleric.

Thank you good sir for making yourself still look like an asshole and retard by typing more then 4 paragraphs to try to make me look bad.

That right there is something a slightly educated jock would try to use as a counter argument to a nerd who just ran circles around him in an argument in front of a pretty girl. "If he out thinks me all the time, I'll insult him to look good" mentality has no place here, kid.

 

[Teerian]

Ill make this short since most of what you said is still boulshit. You have not given any examples of me in game or outside of game talking about something that is op or not and acting like a retard at the same time.

This thread is example enough, I'd say.

Also I don't have the time nor do I care to read all your paragraphs cause most of the time your just repeating yourself.

Thank you good sir for making yourself still look like an asshole and retard by typing more then 4 paragraphs to try to make me look bad.

If you don't have time to read my posts, how would you know I'm just repeating myself? Honestly, though, I don't have to try to make you look bad. You're doing a fine job of that yourself.

Can we get back to discussing disciples now, or shall we continue letting this degenerate into a grade school flame war?

 

[macura]

3-4 people in a single thread think a class is broken, so clearly the class is broken. You heard the man, folks. Next time you stumble upon 3-4 people beating the hell out of someone, don't call the police. They have the numbers, so clearly they are in the right!

*Edited* Too harsh here I suppose. Suffice to say I don't agree with backing down on something I believe in just because I'm outnumbered.



Thank God you aren't part of the balance team. I can only imagine the next step to be a removal of chakra, reduction of all weapon damage to a max of 20, and forcepull changed to spawn a chicken on the player's head that then lays an egg before flying away.



The stamina cost seems the same as it always has been. Looking over the wiki which, as far as I can tell, has yet to be updated for the level cap, forcepush/pull are both listed as 4 stamina each.

This once again leads me to my earlier conclusion that people simply aren't used to fighting disciples, and now that people are suddenly trying the class out, others think it's broken. I'm not arguing about this for the sake of arguing. There are better things I could do with my time. I argue because my experiences both playing and fighting against the disciple class as well as factual numbers lead me to believe that all of you calling for a change are wrong.

If the class had an obvious unfairness, I either wouldn't be posting here or I would be agreeing with you. Instead, I see a class that has remained unchanged for MONTHS aside from the addition of the Balance skill now suddenly being called unfair and broken. I don't want to see it changed simply because a small group of people don't enjoy fighting disciples.

Edit: Speaking of weapon damage, for those complaining about blaze rod doing too much damage, remember that it's one of the most (if not THE most) difficult weapons to obtain. Just because a disciple spawns with one in arenas doesn't mean they always have one outside of it.

Checked the disciple wiki page for a date updated. "This page was last modified on 19 February 2013, at 09:51."

I can 100% promise you that the stamina costs for disciples were changed because i was on the balance team when the idea was proposed and put through. There have been additions other than balance, their 65 skill which is a very powerful targeted stun. Yur arguement that if the class was not balanced that you would not be argueing now makes no sense because anyone in an arguement could say that. Lastly, and i repeat your personal experiences DO NOT reflect that class as a whole. I am assuming that you are not a pvper because you previosly stated that you have trouble killing wizards. If you have trouble killing wizards as a disciple you are not playing it correctly at all because disciples are wizards hardest counter. On top of this, a wizard vs disciple is most likely the most one sided fight possible. I have played wizard for a long time, if a disciple knows what they are doing i am pretty much screwed.

 

[Teerian]

I can 100% promise you that the stamina costs for disciples were changed because i was on the balance team when the idea was proposed and put through. There have been additions other than balance, their 65 skill which is a very powerful targeted stun. Yur arguement that if the class was not balanced that you would not be argueing now makes no sense because anyone in an arguement could say that. Lastly, and i repeat your personal experiences DO NOT reflect that class as a whole. I am assuming that you are not a pvper because you previosly stated that you have trouble killing wizards. If you have trouble killing wizards as a disciple you are not playing it correctly at all because disciples are wizards hardest counter. On top of this, a wizard vs disciple is most likely the most one sided fight possible. I have played wizard for a long time, if a disciple knows what they are doing i am pretty much screwed.

If you read correctly, you will find that I stated I kill wizards just fine. There were two wizards in particular that I would occasionally encounter in 1v1 skirmishes that tried different strategies each time we fought. The most surprising (and closest calls that I can rememeber) being a mad rush of instant/fast spells that only relented due to flying kick's silence. The point of this was not to say "OH MAH GAWD, WIZARDS ARE MEAN! I WAS ALMOST EATEN BY WIZARDS ONCE!" which seems to be the only thing you managed to take from it. My point was maybe people should try new strategies if they're having issues with disciples rather than repeating the same failed attempts in hopes of the next fight being 'the one' and calling for balance action against the class when it fails yet again.

If the stamina costs were changed, they had to have been changed long before the cap increase. The wiki has not been updated since at least February, and I don't recall it costing 6 or more for most of my time as a disciple. This being the case, bringing it up months later leads back to the thought "Why is this suddenly an issue now?" The 65 skill is the ONLY thing I cannot accurately address because I have yet to thoroughly test it in pvp.

If personal experiences were the ONLY thing I offered in my arguments, you may have a point with that. Unfortunately for you, I have offered actual accurate numbers as well. The personal experiences are mainly there for people like yourself who continuously make comments along the lines of "lol, u must not pvp" in an attempt to show that I have, in fact, pvped quite a bit as a disciple. I think a few of the Umbra folks can back me up on that since I would often travel around with them out of boredom or fight with/against them in arenas.

As for the "I wouldn't be arguing" comment, that was mainly in response to you potentially insinuating that I was arguing simply to argue and stir things up. My purpose here is to defend my favorite class using facts and examples I am well knowledgeable on due to my time spent playing it. I do this because these facts and numbers lead me to believe that the disciple is NOT the broken, overpowered class you and others in this thread are trying to convince people to believe it is.

Stop grasping at straws and attempting to purposely misinterpret my words. Give me some damned FACTS showing disciples need to be changed.

 

[Templar_James]

Teerian has on multiple cases brought up good arguments for Disciples during the "discussion" you bashers have been doing the last couple days. I regularly fight beside a Disciple on the server, and I have yet to see a broken anything. It does support right, but it isn't the healer that Cleric or Mystic is, and it's not like that high damage blaze rod is just growing on trees like some people seem to think does. To be honest, as a group healer, it's only okay, and the Paladin I play can out burst damage it.

I see Forcepush/Forcepull fail on a regular basis in pvp as well, as someone used the Dragoon getting the rubber band effect as a defense to its abilities, that same thought should apply here as well. There are several arguments on this thread that involve quickly dismissing well articulated responses with "because I said so" and then use a similar reason to why they are right. It definitely appears people don't like being beaten and have to find an excuse besides, "I couldn't crush my opponent with the same tactics I use on everyone else, therefore my opponent is cheating, their class is broken, etc."

Disciple fills a good niche somewhere between Paladin and Cleric. Not as tough as a Paladin, not as good of a healer as a Cleric.



That right there is something a slightly educated jock would try to use as a counter argument to a nerd who just ran circles around him in an argument in front of a pretty girl. "If he out thinks me all the time, I'll insult him to look good" mentality has no place here, kid.

If you read correctly, you will find that I stated I kill wizards just fine. There were two wizards in particular that I would occasionally encounter in 1v1 skirmishes that tried different strategies each time we fought. The most surprising (and closest calls that I can rememeber) being a mad rush of instant/fast spells that only relented due to flying kick's silence. The point of this was not to say "OH MAH GAWD, WIZARDS ARE MEAN! I WAS ALMOST EATEN BY WIZARDS ONCE!" which seems to be the only thing you managed to take from it. My point was maybe people should try new strategies if they're having issues with disciples rather than repeating the same failed attempts in hopes of the next fight being 'the one' and calling for balance action against the class when it fails yet again.

If the stamina costs were changed, they had to have been changed long before the cap increase. The wiki has not been updated since at least February, and I don't recall it costing 6 or more for most of my time as a disciple. This being the case, bringing it up months later leads back to the thought "Why is this suddenly an issue now?" The 65 skill is the ONLY thing I cannot accurately address because I have yet to thoroughly test it in pvp.

If personal experiences were the ONLY thing I offered in my arguments, you may have a point with that. Unfortunately for you, I have offered actual accurate numbers as well. The personal experiences are mainly there for people like yourself who continuously make comments along the lines of "lol, u must not pvp" in an attempt to show that I have, in fact, pvped quite a bit as a disciple. I think a few of the Umbra folks can back me up on that since I would often travel around with them out of boredom or fight with/against them in arenas.

As for the "I wouldn't be arguing" comment, that was mainly in response to you potentially insinuating that I was arguing simply to argue and stir things up. My purpose here is to defend my favorite class using facts and examples I am well knowledgeable on due to my time spent playing it. I do this because these facts and numbers lead me to believe that the disciple is NOT the broken, overpowered class you and others in this thread are trying to convince people to believe it is.

Stop grasping at straws and attempting to purposely misinterpret my words. Give me some damned FACTS showing disciples need to be changed.

To show you both I'll try to become a mastered disc just that I can show you what is broken about the class...

 

[macura]

Ok here are some numbers to show how easily disciples can combo.

The numbers within () are stam costs.

1. forcepull (4), smite, flyingkick (5), ironfist (6).
With this combo the disciple will have deal 347 true damage in addition to most likely around 100-150 fall damage however i will not pick a value because it is extremely circumstantial. This combo will only use 15 stamina which will leave you with either enough tk run or around 1 second of regen. All of this damage is done without any melee and if you took any damage you will have launhed the person far enough to use pray of bandage.

Different variations of this essential combo can be used bt they all follow the same theme of tossing the guy around and then launching him.

Simply with this combo you can deal incredable amounts of damage with next to 0 risk.

The time in which the thread is make after a class change is irrelevant because things frewuently go unnoticed. Last map there was a class that had a 100% chance of half hitting anyone with a ranged stun combo (geomancer) and later had the ability to always 1 shot people. The second part was far more noticible but few people knew what to do with the combo so for a while it remained unnoticed.

Lastly here are some numbers upon your request, if you have previosly stated any i have not gotten the chance to read then and i ask you to re-state them if you have a counter claim.

 

[Teerian]

The flaws with that I see are as follows:

-You are excluding the mana cost, which looks to be close to 50% if you chain them all in rapid succession.

-You speak as if it's a streaming chain with no interruption, ignoring the global skill use cooldown. This leaves time for the opponent to take some sort of action, despite how brief each moment may seem.

-Any melee class will, at the very least, be swinging at you and attempting to use a skill on you during the initial pull. This will continue until flying kick silence. Melee swings will continue even after. Any caster should either be attempting to out-range you or using their own crowd control (silence, pigify, etc. Depends on class). The only way this is even close to zero risk is if you're fighting a newbie or someone who is AFK.

-Taking the above into account, you have two choices: A) Save your mana/stamina for another round of this combo. B) Heal the damage you received over the next 6 seconds (which will total around 4 hearts returned, using up the last 50% of your mana as stated earlier in the thread as well as 5 more stamina for Chakra). Either choice leaves you at the point of using meditate to continue if your target is still alive. If you chose to heal, your opponent is likely now engaged with you again, leaving poor opportunity to meditate. Any class that survived this assault (warriors, definitely healers, certain other paths due to abilities negating fall damage; ninja for example) now have you at a severe disadvantage. Continuing the combo leaves you taking damage each time, risking your own demise.

-You are neglecting to take into account counter, escape, and mobility skills such as silence/kick, blink, jump/super jump etc that could be used to escape or negate the combo. The only way to preempt this would be to kick immediately after pull, negating the fall damage you are trying to take into account. *Edit* Or iron fist after and remove smite from the combo, either way decreasing the full potential damage you listed.

-You fail to consider that the opponent may choose to tactically FLEE after the first combo completes (if it does so). Depending on the setting (world pvp, arena, etc) and situation, they may flee completely. They may flee to heal or regain health/await a cooldown before continuing the assault. Who is to say every opponent is going to madly rush you repeatedly so you can use this combo?

The time in which the thread is make after a class change is irrelevant because things frewuently go unnoticed. Last map there was a class that had a 100% chance of half hitting anyone with a ranged stun combo (geomancer) and later had the ability to always 1 shot people. The second part was far more noticible but few people knew what to do with the combo so for a while it remained unnoticed.

Lastly here are some numbers upon your request, if you have previosly stated any i have not gotten the chance to read then and i ask you to re-state them if you have a counter claim.

In some cases, yes. In cases where the class has remained unchanged for a lengthy amount of time with people in action using the skills and others taking notice, not so much. The above combo has been available for as long as I have played the disciple class. I've used similar in certain situations and had it used against me in others. This isn't a sudden power that has been overlooked. Nothing in the disciple skill set is. Therefore the length of time available combined with the timing of these complaints makes it relevant.

It's as I've repeated too many times now. The disciple skill set has remained unchanged and known for a long time. The difference is the level cap increase brought more people playing the class, so now people have to deal with them more often. In the past, it wasn't all that important to be prepared to face a disciple since they were rare. This has left many players ill-prepared and questioning the class rather than their own ability to adapt.

Edit: Thank you for replying with some numbers this time. Now we're getting somewhere!