Suggestion Disciple it hits like a truck and tanks like a ton.....

[macura]

Somehow missed this post. I agree disciple has always been a strong class, but it has always been a class that you have to know how to play correctly if you want to be successful.

When people started noticing the incredible mobility and durability of the dragoon class, the world was flooded with dragoons. When people saw the samurai class' abilities made it all but a 'left-click-and-win' path, Herocraft turned into feudal Japan. However, despite seeing the two or three max disciples of the server doing very well for themselves, very few people switched, and many of those who did abandoned it before long.

This leads me to believe that people are basing their information off of the top players; the ones who excel at the class. The fact that disciple isn't (or at least wasn't) a popular class choice just makes it seem like more people than normal excel at it.

It's something I've seen in many other games. 100 players all play the same class. 2 of them are really good at timing their abilities, chaining them the right way, and making the best decisions against specific classes, making them seem almost godlike. The other 98 aspire to this, but never reach that high bar. They either don't mesh with the style of the class or simply don't have the skill or timing of those top 2. The rest of the player base sees/fights the top 2 and believes such is the norm for the entire class. Cries of "NERF" ensue (and in some cases, sadly, are met with success).

Is this the case with the disciple class? I don't know for sure, and I won't claim to. It just seems very odd to me.

I am sorry but as a disciple if you are not decimating wizard then you are not playing the class to its strengths and do not represent those disciples who are able to use the class to its full potential. A gun is just a hunk of metal unless you know where the trigger is.

 

[Templar_James]

So... Disciple has been the same the whole time, yet I recall nobody playing Disciple the whole 2012 part of Bastion, people sometimes said its a shitty class, but now its suddenly too powerful, which it apparnently was before?

Dude it's been op since the start everyone just didn't play it I played it the whole time I joined the server back in dragon and all I new was forcepull forcepush and I literally would rape almost everyone class that was mastered at level 30

 

[werwew19]

No and no. The force spells are already fairly unreliable in a pvp fight due to the targeting system and client/server latency issues. It's also already easy enough to stamina-starve oneself in an intense fight, and these two abilities are pretty much the make-or-break skills for the class.

The silence on flying kick I'll leave to the balance team. My experiences against casters have led me to believe that the length is necessary. Some of the more ballsy wizards have shown that a good tactic against a disciple is to just unload everything in a blinding torrent of close-range, instant (or fast) burst damage spells. These instances where I walked away the victor, I typically did so with one heart or less. Shaving off even one second of silence would mean that practically every kamikaze wizard rush results in a very dead disciple. Then you also have beguilers chaining pigify/plaguebomb over and over. That 4 second silence against them can often be the only damage time you get in the fight. Fighting the other healing specs without silence just turns the battle into a heal-off that a disciple will eventually lose. A four second window can be pretty small against a heal-spamming cleric.

In short, I feel flying kick should be left alone as well, but I need time at 65 fighting level 65's with all the new skills before I can say "You're out of your mind. Leave the ability as is."

The length is completely unnecessary a silence for 4 seconds leaving a wizard or a necro do nothing is stupid while everyone else is dying. Some of the more ballsy wizards (Me I like to get close range) I use my burst to the fullest but they just chakra everything away like its nothing and then use there other heals and beat the crap out of me with there melee after a forcepull. Like Macura said if you are having trouble killing a class you counter at the moment and only living with that much health after beating them then your doing something completely wrong.

 

[MultiHeartGold]

Dude it's been op since the start everyone just didn't play it I played it the whole time I joined the server back in dragon and all I new was forcepull forcepush and I literally would rape almost everyone class that was mastered at level 30

Go to Suggestions section, type in "Disciple", search titles only and newer than 7th of September. Now, link a single Suggestion thread other than this that complained about Disciples being even powerful at all. So... if Disciple has been "op since the start", why has nobody bothered to suggest any balances for it during this current map? Also, a bit off, but havent you played Dragoon the whole time?

 

[werwew19]

So... Disciple has been the same the whole time, yet I recall nobody playing Disciple the whole 2012 part of Bastion, people sometimes said its a shitty class, but now its suddenly too powerful, which it apparnently was before?

Yes you are right people considered it a shitty class. However I remember TrueCorruptor destroying everyone as a disciple when I started off DG but the beginning of bastion holy shit have you seen tony_is_baws and DrearyDragon0 they demolished everyone when they were disciples but they were the only ones who played them as a main class that is why nobody noticed however with the rework disciple got a buff............................. It is pretty clear they need to be fixed.

 

[MultiHeartGold]

tony_is_baws and DrearyDragon0 they demolished everyone

nobody noticed

Either a lot of people are blind, or you write without reading.

 

[Scycor]

I loved disciple as a class, I've played it since last map and I have had so much experience with it. I hate when classes become OP especially ones I like because they get nerfed beyond the point they need to be.

To fix the "OPness" of this class is to do this.

• Nerf DivineWord, give it a higher CD and maybe more Mana cost
• Cut QuiveringPalms damage in half, and lower the range in which it can be used
• Nerf Meditate to only do half Mana but still do the complete Stamina

The reason why I am saying nerf Meditate is because a Disciple can practically out-heal and class at the moment, and for a combat based healer spec that is just not right. Disciples can, and will take on multiple people, perhaps 2 or 3 and even if they don't win, they can always get away with their knockbacks, stuns and other skills they have.

joshtsai macura Templar_James werwew190 - Thoughts?

 

[werwew19]

I loved disciple as a class, I've played it since last map and I have had so much experience with it. I hate when classes become OP especially ones I like because they get nerfed beyond the point they need to be.

To fix the "OPness" of this class is to do this.

• Nerf DivineWord, give it a higher CD and maybe more Mana cost
• Cut QuiveringPalms damage in half, and lower the range in which it can be used
• Nerf Meditate to only do half Mana but still do the complete Stamina

The reason why I am saying nerf Meditate is because a Disciple can practically out-heal and class at the moment, and for a combat based healer spec that is just not right. Disciples can, and will take on multiple people, perhaps 2 or 3 and even if they don't win, they can always get away with their knockbacks, stuns and other skills they have.


joshtsai macura Templar_James werwew190 - Thoughts?

DivineWord was pulled today according to tony_is_baws for quiveringpalm I like it but I still don't like the idea of the stun 1 second might not seem much but with there interrupts and silence they have it just keeps adding up and the stun is pretty strong against a caster even if it is 1 second. The Meditate nerf I love it you had a good idea there.

 

[joshtsai]

Divine word was taken off last night. As for quivering palm, not a 65 yet so no say here. A meditate Nerf is fine.

All for bringing back divine word with a higher mana cost and cooldown.

 

[ThatAintFalco]

Random suggestions

• Merge chakra and balance into one
• Lower silence on flyingkick by 1 second
• Lower forcepush's push so that disciples would have to flyingkick+ironfist to disengage
• Hight forcepull's cd
• Lower smite's damage
• Keep meditate the same
• Bump up all mana costs but lower stamina a tad bit

 

[Teerian]

Unless they have suddenly become the scissors to a disciple's paper (or paper to rock. Take your pick), I normally do beat wizards. As you said, disciple is a counter class to wizard. However, many of the veteran wizards know this and try different strategies in an attempt to win. They usually fail, but they come a lot closer than normal wizards. My point is when one of these casters starts going spell crazy or uses an endless chain of CC-damage-CC-damage, the silence is just about the only way to defeat them.

The other option is forcepush and try to run away to heal, but that will give them the time to do the same or escape, and for anyone who has actually played a disciple instead of against one, you'll know that it's VERY easy to escape from a disciple once you pass out of forcepull range.

As for out-healing the damage, chakra does 1/2 to 1 heart worth of healing. The beauty of the spell is not the healing but the fact that it removes one debuff per use. The other two heals have a warm-up, and mend barely heals more than chakra. If a wizard is not doing more than 1/2 to 2 hearts of damage per spell, perhaps they are the ones doing it wrong. For those playing it right, good luck out-healing their damage without fleeing.

Still not 65, so I still can't comment on how Quivering Palm ties into everything. I still find it incredibly hard to believe that the class is so powerful that anyone can pick it up and dominate, and yet very few people play it. Every other powerful pvp class has been flooded with class switch-overs once their strength became publicly evident. What turns people away from disciple if it's so 'easy mode'?

Oh, and while I'm posting, I never claimed to be the top 2/2%/Chuck Norris/Darth Vader/God of the disciple class, nor will I. There has just never been very many people playing them since I started. I could probably count all of the ones I've met on one hand regardless of level. Maybe even call them by name.

Let's see what Delf has in mind for the class and then continue arguing from there.

 

[Teerian]

• Merge chakra and balance into one

...

 

[ThatAintFalco]

Why not?

...

...

Peopple have argued that chakra isn't a 1v1 skill, as it is way to good. Having a cleanse that gives 110 then does the balance thing makes chakra not a press 2 be safe. Also balance is rarely used, and merging it with chakra could be a cool concept.

 

[Teerian]

Well, it has been said by higher staff members multiple times that this isn't meant to be a 1v1 server anyway. I just don't see the sense of taking away one of the disciple bread-and-butter skills to make an extremely situational spell slightly more desired (and even then, it likely won't be). Chakra is the only thing that keeps a disciple from being nothing more than a sitting duck in most cases. Certain plate/rogue classes are meant to be the disciple counter, not the casters. Changing or removing chakra means disciples either get kited to death by DoT abilities or root-rotted/nuked into oblivion every time.

And once again, since people keep forgetting, all heal spells do less when healing yourself rather than others. Chakra does not give the disciple 110 when used. Even if it did, most classes can do much more damage than that between chakra cooldowns.

 

[werwew19]

Well, it has been said by higher staff members multiple times that this isn't meant to be a 1v1 server anyway. I just don't see the sense of taking away one of the disciple bread-and-butter skills to make an extremely situational spell slightly more desired (and even then, it likely won't be). Chakra is the only thing that keeps a disciple from being nothing more than a sitting duck in most cases. Certain plate/rogue classes are meant to be the disciple counter, not the casters. Changing or removing chakra means disciples either get kited to death by DoT abilities or root-rotted/nuked into oblivion every time.

And once again, since people keep forgetting, all heal spells do less when healing yourself rather than others. Chakra does not give the disciple 110 when used. Even if it did, most classes can do much more damage than that between chakra cooldowns.

You do realize what makes chakra bs op is it is instant and it takes off a debuff? Disciples without chakra would still be a freaking amazing class with there current skills.

 

[joshtsai]

I think I've said this close to 100 times now that chakra doesn't heal very much Hp. Yes it removes a debuff but in a fight vs wizard, if you hit an icebolt, the disciple chakras that off then the wizard can follow up on a fireball and the disciple is stuck with the fire tick.

As for balance, I use it all the time, I would use it even more if the range was increased.

 

[Teerian]

You do realize what makes chakra bs op is it is instant and it takes off a debuff? Disciples without chakra would still be a freaking amazing class with there current skills.

You do realize that you have no sense whatsoever of what truly overpowered skills are like? Disciples without chakra would not be an amazing class and you know it. I gather that this is the reason you want the skill nerfed or removed.

Regardless of whether or not you'll listen, I'll offer an explanation anyway. Let's take root for example:

-Casters get rooted, they have plenty of spells to fight back with. Some even have movement or crowd control effects to help them avoid any incoming damage while stuck in place.
-Rangers fit into the same category with their high bow damage.
-Samurai impermanece/windwalk.
-Dragoons have spear (longer range than forcepull) on top of high armor and hp to soak damage or jump/super jump to escape if needed.
-Bards can voidsong to silence and/or healing chorus (same thing as chakra with less healing, debuff removal included).
-Ninja have escape artist and, holy god, all kinds of other utility abilities.
-Bloodmages have silence and good range damage to fight back with similar to the casters.
-Mystics have plenty of heals, root of their own, and invis.
-Paladins can shield, shield reflect, invulnerable, heal, lay on hands, and have high armor/hp. I exclude their pull and silence since both are low range, but they do have those as well.
-Dreadknights, high armor/hp. They seem the worst off in this situation of all the classes, but they do still have things like mana freeze and terror should their target be close enough for use.
-Cleric, heal-heal-heal-invuln-heal-heal-guardianangel-heal-heal-heal screw this, let's go fight something else, I don't have three hours for this crap.

The only class I can't speak of is runeblade since they were completely redone.

So that leaves disciples with chakra. That's it. Forcepull has a limit of 10 blocks, easily out-ranged by any class that needs to stay out of melee range, and flying kick requires the disciple to be in melee range to use. Without the chance to purge root using chakra (and if the caster is smart, they'll put another debuff on before it to block this), the disciple can only use warm-up heals and hope for survival until root fades.

Basically what I'm seeing here is a bunch of people who either haven't played the class or haven't fought it regularly until just recently screaming for change so that their pvp lives might be easier rather than learning how to fight properly. Don't like that comment? Good. The truth does tend to sting.

 

[Dsawemd]

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that the class is so powerful that anyone can pick it up and dominate, and yet very few people play it. Every other powerful pvp class has been flooded with class switch-overs once their strength became publicly evident. What turns people away from disciple if it's so 'easy mode'?

I know you had some valid points in the post, but this one I chose to correct. The revamp is less than a week old, and even IF you were keeping close count of the server's population of Disciples you could never keep track of how many people are planning on changing to Disciple if they see that the revamp changes are being upheld. Herocraft veterans are careful when they choose a class that appears to be flavor of the month.

 

[Teerian]

True enough, Dsawemd, but my point from earlier remains. With divine word gone (and we were never meant to have it anyway), disciples got one change in quivering palm. The rest of the skill set remains unchanged. Few people played it before the cap increase. Why the sudden interest now?

Edit: Guess I should clarify that I don't see this as a flavor of the month situation since disciple has been relatively unchanged for a long time now and remain so aside from 5 new levels and one new skill.

 

[werwew19]

You do realize that you have no sense whatsoever of what truly overpowered skills are like? Disciples without chakra would not be an amazing class and you know it. I gather that this is the reason you want the skill nerfed or removed.

Regardless of whether or not you'll listen, I'll offer an explanation anyway. Let's take root for example:

-Casters get rooted, they have plenty of spells to fight back with. Some even have movement or crowd control effects to help them avoid any incoming damage while stuck in place.
-Rangers fit into the same category with their high bow damage.
-Samurai impermanece/windwalk.
-Dragoons have spear (longer range than forcepull) on top of high armor and hp to soak damage or jump/super jump to escape if needed.
-Bards can voidsong to silence and/or healing chorus (same thing as chakra with less healing, debuff removal included).
-Ninja have escape artist and, holy god, all kinds of other utility abilities.
-Bloodmages have silence and good range damage to fight back with similar to the casters.
-Mystics have plenty of heals, root of their own, and invis.
-Paladins can shield, shield reflect, invulnerable, heal, lay on hands, and have high armor/hp. I exclude their pull and silence since both are low range, but they do have those as well.
-Dreadknights, high armor/hp. They seem the worst off in this situation of all the classes, but they do still have things like mana freeze and terror should their target be close enough for use.
-Cleric, heal-heal-heal-invuln-heal-heal-guardianangel-heal-heal-heal screw this, let's go fight something else, I don't have three hours for this crap.

The only class I can't speak of is runeblade since they were completely redone.

So that leaves disciples with chakra. That's it. Forcepull has a limit of 10 blocks, easily out-ranged by any class that needs to stay out of melee range, and flying kick requires the disciple to be in melee range to use. Without the chance to purge root using chakra (and if the caster is smart, they'll put another debuff on before it to block this), the disciple can only use warm-up heals and hope for survival until root fades.

Basically what I'm seeing here is a bunch of people who either haven't played the class or haven't fought it regularly until just recently screaming for change so that their pvp lives might be easier rather than learning how to fight properly. Don't like that comment? Good. The truth does tend to sting.

Forcepull and Forcepush interrupt with flying kick as a 4 second silence and last time I checked most casters getting a high damage burst skill the range is under 10 blocks so if you cant use one of your what 2 interrupts to interrupt a skill without chakra? The class is terrible now? Disciple has other skills too not Chakra and since when have you PvP'd the name coming from you seems dead this map from at least what I can tell. If you can't play Disciple well without chakra but have 2 interrupts and a silence against caster classes and melee classes then disciple is not for you and have you checked there blaze rod damage lately it is 89 damage a hit which is a lot for a healer class with interrupts a new stun etc.