death of healers

[MeganPerk]

When I first joined herocraft, all I wanted to do was heal people and help out. I very quickly realized that without any heals, I was an easy target to kill. I did little damage, but I could normally survive if mana permitted me to keep healing. After taking many a beating, I became annoyed and chose to become the attacking healer - monk. Monk did not do much damage on their own, in fact they did average damage. What was the thing that gave monks their greatest upper hand? The ability to heal and survive as long as they had mana.

When dreaded 1.0 came out, heals were given greater cooldowns, higher costs, ramp up cast times when the healer could do nothing, and even slows and the inability to jump while casting. Not only did this ruin any chance of a healer defending themselves, but it made healing very inefficient. I begged and pleaded for these changes not to go through because it was a total nightmare for healers, but my pleas went ignored.

I had hoped that if i left and gave them time to see what they had done, that they might come to their senses and revert the changes. After a time, I returned. Mob Arenas were all the buzz and healers were needed because they cut off health regeneration. Healing against dumb AI monsters was simple enough without spells getting kicked off, no/little movement required, and proper macros made with the right composition of a group all piled together in a small space. I thought that healing might be better than I had dreaded it would turn into. Then I tried pvp.

Spells were kicked off, damage was recieved, slows were engaged, and no matter the class, I could either heal for a fraction of the damage I recieved or I could do less damage than they were. My only saving grace as a disciple was to get them to high ground. My spells were a hinderance, not a buff.

Just today I got in a battle with a caster. They had 2 spells - fireblast and bolt. They could cast fireblast at an insane range with 100% accuracy and with such a low cooldown that I was unable to keep myself alive with heals as my mana pool was quickly drained. They had plenty of mana left, while I was scraping for every bit just to keep myself afloat from the onslaught. I was unable to close the gap as my forcepull flung them behind me where I could not hit them and was nothing more than a sitting duck in the water, unable to outheal their damage to keep myself afloat. It was a horrid experience.

I already know plenty of people are going to tell me to shut up and stop QQing about a "support class", to learn to play, and to switch classes if I don't like it, but I loved being a healer to heal, and the new spell system robbed me of that fun aspect. Flame and troll all you want, they will fall on dead ears.

It was fun while it lasted everyone. I will miss you all.

 

[Glent]

Sounds like a class problem. Go druid if you are having mana problems, or cleric if you're having trouble outhealing damage. Disciple's don't have great heals, and I imagine this is on purpose because of their various other utility roles - pulling enemies to their team, chakra to remove debuffs, kick to silence opposing casters. All healer classes are team based and while, yes, Disciple is the strongest fit to 1v1, it's still not ideal.

I've played every healer spec and I've done so with allies, and I can honestly say that the majority of them are strong and well balanced classes. The exception is bloodmage, a class only really suited to countering spellcasters.

Additionally, if this is what you're looking for:

Monk did not do much damage on their own, in fact they did average damage. What was the thing that gave monks their greatest upper hand? The ability to heal and survive as long as they had mana.

Paladin does more or less exactly this. They don't do a ton of damage, but their durability and longevity makes them a difficult kill for the majority of classes. They are, however, still a largely team based class, like the healer specs.

In short? Healer's fine, more or less.

 

[Kainzo]

I think healers are needed now, more than ever. Yes the health regen system is different, but overall it only helps out of combat.

The down and dirty of it is, heals are healing for much more than they ever have and there's more heal spell choices for the top healers (Full Heal coming in for cleric) - not all healers are "Straight" healers and we're working on redoing/revamping some of them.

It's our goal to balance but it doesn't come easy and many hours of play testing is needed in order to find the proper balance of things.

@Megan
Now, what I think this thread needs is suggestions not cries for "turn it back to the old system or else!" What kind of adjustments could make the disciple more viable as a healer? What stam/mana costs changes should we make?

dankee

 

[Danda]

Ignore this post

 

[Glent]

FireBALL is not a 100% chance to hit. It is a skill shot much like an arrow it can be difficult to land at times specially if you're target is constantly moving around and dodging. The only way you're likely to get hit 100% of the time is if you're stupid and run in a straight line at them.

Fireblast is a temporary replacement skill since fireball is broken or something. That said it's still pretty easy to counter heal. And back to the OP: Yeah, you're going to run out of mana first in a fight against a wizard unless you're a druid. You can't just hope to outlast a wizard's mana abilities.

As for what Kainzo said, I don't really think it's urgent to rebalance healers at the moment. Most mana costs are fine and they are critical in any team battle in PvP.

 

[Danda]

Ah ok I must have missed that change.
Will look that up so I know what I'm talking about this time

As for what Kainzo said, I don't really think it's urgent to rebalance healers at the moment. Most mana costs are fine and they are critical in any team battle in PvP.

Yes but as we re-balance other classes healers may need to be looked into again.

 

[Kainzo]

Fireblast is a temporary replacement skill since fireball is broken or something. That said it's still pretty easy to counter heal. And back to the OP: Yeah, you're going to run out of mana first in a fight against a wizard unless you're a druid. You can't just hope to outlast a wizard's mana abilities.

As for what Kainzo said, I don't really think it's urgent to rebalance healers at the moment. Most mana costs are fine and they are critical in any team battle in PvP.

Well no, some of the Disc heals take stam (albeit very small amounts) with mana as well - this may be a wrong thing to do - but the amount it takes to cast / warmup - you pretty much already regain the stam in that time.

 

[Glent]

Well no, some of the Disc heals take stam (albeit very small amounts) with mana as well - this may be a wrong thing to do - but the amount it takes to cast / warmup - you pretty much already regain the stam in that time.

Well, I was speaking from experience prior to the stamina patch. If the mana costs for Disciple are the same as they were just before that patch, then they were pretty good mana costs, considering disciples aren't primary healers and mana is, atleast in my opinion, a resource that should be used conservatively rather than spamming it away.

 

[MajorasMask]

It was fun while it lasted everyone. I will miss you all.

So you will leave because Healers were made less useful? Wow.

Second, you could just find another class? If healer is not working for you anymore, just try another class like Caster or Rogue, you might prefer their abilities.

 

[TheTMTrainer]

How about a scaling Bandage like skill? e.g. it gets more potent and has less of a cooldown per level.

Another thing I see slightly overdue is, Clerics/Druids need possibly 1 more attack. Not some overpowered supershit, but perhaps something like a AoE, weaker, smite? Like 15 damage for a 4 block area around a targeted enemy. I could go off referencing Final Fantasy spells, but... whatever.

 

[Glent]

How about a scaling Bandage like skill? e.g. it gets more potent and has less of a cooldown per level.

Another thing I see slightly overdue is, Clerics/Druids need possibly 1 more attack. Not some overpowered supershit, but perhaps something like a AoE, weaker, smite? Like 15 damage for a 4 block area around a targeted enemy. I could go off referencing Final Fantasy spells, but... whatever.

Bandage has no cooldown (unless you're a bloodmage) and we already have pray, chant, etc. for higher level heals (they do the opposite in terms of cooldown - that's the purpose of bandage, it's filler.)

I don't really think clerics need an offensive move - they are pure healers, and one of the most powerful classes in the game. They can litteraly make or break a team vs. team battle.

As for druid, maybe it's a good idea? It's a utility class as is, so it's probably more open to additional mucking about. They do get root and essentially infinite mana though.

 

[TheTMTrainer]

Bandage has no cooldown (unless you're a bloodmage) and we already have pray, chant, etc. for higher level heals (they do the opposite in terms of cooldown - that's the purpose of bandage, it's filler.)

I don't really think clerics need an offensive move - they are pure healers, and one of the most powerful classes in the game. They can litteraly make or break a team vs. team battle.

As for druid, maybe it's a good idea? It's a utility class as is, so it's probably more open to additional mucking about. They do get root and essentially infinite mana though.

I see your point.

Why not a Heal/Hurt aura? If enemies get too close, they take damage, and that DoT will heal allies who are also in the circle. Thus, Clerics get a defensive move, and it still sticks with their healing theme.

 

[Glent]

I see your point.

Why not a Heal/Hurt aura? If enemies get too close, they take damage, and that DoT will heal allies who are also in the circle. Thus, Clerics get a defensive move, and it still sticks with their healing theme.

I think the range would have to be pretty low on something like that for cleric. Maybe a heal that also knocks back people around the target slightly, if they really need an offensive move. Something not directly offensive, but with offensive applications.

Personally I'm fine with them just getting fullheal though, provided it's balanced (Shouldn't be as long cooldown as layhands IMO, but not a low cooldown either).

 

[TheTMTrainer]

I think the range would have to be pretty low on something like that for cleric. Maybe a heal that also knocks back people around the target slightly, if they really need an offensive move. Something not directly offensive, but with offensive applications.

Personally I'm fine with them just getting fullheal though, provided it's balanced (Shouldn't be as long cooldown as layhands IMO, but not a low cooldown either).

3 Block area?

Another thing, most RPGs give healers the ability to attack mobs with their heal...

 

[jwplayer0]

As far as disciple skills and mana management, how about a skill that grants his melee attack abilities to grant 10% or 5% of his mana back, lasting anywhere from 5 to 10s. I will say this idea isnt really mine, im going through different mmo's and rpg to find things that could be possibly implemented into heroes as actual skills. Im going to make a list later.

 

[TheTMTrainer]

As far as disciple skills and mana management, how about a skill that grants his melee attack abilities to grant 10% or 5% of his mana back, lasting anywhere from 5 to 10s. I will say this idea isnt really mine, im going through different mmo's and rpg to find things that could be possibly implemented into heroes as actual skills. Im going to make a list later.

Final Fantasy, please.

 

[Kainzo]

I think the range would have to be pretty low on something like that for cleric. Maybe a heal that also knocks back people around the target slightly, if they really need an offensive move. Something not directly offensive, but with offensive applications.

Personally I'm fine with them just getting fullheal though, provided it's balanced (Shouldn't be as long cooldown as layhands IMO, but not a low cooldown either).

The Full Heal has a 20-30sc cooldown. If not less. It is way above lay hands but has a LONG cast time. It is for all intents and purpose, a complete heal every 20s

 

[Glent]

The Full Heal has a 20-30sc cooldown. If not less. It is way above lay hands but has a LONG cast time. It is for all intents and purpose, a complete heal every 20s

Sounds like a fairly difficult skill to use, since you would have to anticipate ahead of time when an ally will need that instant heal. I would personally have gave it a faster cast time but with a large mana cost (akin to megabolt) and similar cooldown to what you said - but that's just my opinion. Maybe it's intended to be difficult to use correctly.

3 Block area?

Another thing, most RPGs give healers the ability to attack mobs with their heal...

Generally it's the ability to attack undead with their heals. I would personally like smite to do some bonus effects versus undead (including players in undead form), but this is a pretty minor thing at the moment since there isn't much PvE content, and I heard that they aren't interested in implementing anything like that.

 

[Kainzo]

Sounds like a fairly difficult skill to use, since you would have to anticipate ahead of time when an ally will need that instant heal. I would personally have gave it a faster cast time but with a large mana cost (akin to megabolt) and similar cooldown to what you said - but that's just my opinion. Maybe it's intended to be difficult to use correctly.



Generally it's the ability to attack undead with their heals. I would personally like smite to do some bonus effects versus undead (including players in undead form), but this is a pretty minor thing at the moment since there isn't much PvE content, and I heard that they aren't interested in implementing anything like that.

Full Heal is 60 - which isnt out or tuned. Thanks for the heads up though.

 

[Glent]

Full Heal is 60 - which isnt out or tuned. Thanks for the heads up though.

Yeah, I'm aware. Just theoretical here. If the skill were to have a cast time like bloodmage bandage than it would be ridiculously difficult to time it effeciently, which is what I would class as a "LONG" cast time.