Suggestion Clerics function...

[Eldrylars]

I actually liked this update relative to where cleric stands especially with the removal of might. Before the update they were not a balanced spec at all. In 1v1s as a cleric the only people who were able to kill be were sammies (sometimes) and a paladin who only won by a half a heart

Unfortunately this is untrue. I know half the Clerics on the server and there was plenty of classes that had a fair chance against a Cleric and just as many classes that a Cleric rarely could kill.

• Cleric against Casters, Rangers and Dragoons I had a 90% win rate.
• Cleric against Runeblades, Mystics and Dreadknights I had an 50% win rate.
• Cleric against Sammys, Pallys , Bloodmages, Disciples, Ninjas and Bards I had about a 25% win rate.

This is the general consensus from most Clerics.
EDIT: Consider as well that this is ARENA. In an open field fight a Cleric will have a VERY hard time killing a Ranger or most any other classes as it has not way to slow or break distance.

You can use comparisons between healer specs with their mana pools, cost and heals and so on but you are missing several key points.

1. Chakra consumes both mana and stamina.
2. Clerics are tanky as fuck and have survivability out their ass.

Yes, this was listed above and Meditate also restores 100% stamina

Clerics do have an additional 20% damage reduction of Mystics and Disciples with their armor, but their hit points are pretty much the same. The reasons Clerics seemed/were tanky was because we could invuln to get off a couple heals if someone was breathing down our neck. Problem with invuln healing is that it absorbes 1/4 of your mana pool. This leaves very little mana to use during a fight. It is true that a defensively played Cleric can tank a lot of damage but in the process he is not going to be doing a lot of damage.

I will further elaborate upon my second point here. Clerics are extremely tanky for being a healer and have a lot of survivability. They are far harder the kill than any other healer spec. Lets say i (ninja) was in a group fight. I would attempt to smoke, walk around everyone and kill the healer. If i succeed and i get behind my target if it were a mystic the mystic would pretty much be fucked. They would pop like a caster and would not be able to handle my burst with their heal over time skills. If it were a cleric that i got behind the guy would most likely be able to tank the damage or invuln and run off. On top of this if a cleric is caught using a targeted heal for another person they will take a little damage and be knocked away but if another healer spec is attacked when targeting a heal they will die. This is a very similar point to my last one however it is significant because it shows that accessability to the use of many healing skills is further hindered by lack of armor. Clerics are significantly harder to kill than other healers are so it would be sense for there to be some sort of compensation

Unfortunately this is a pretty shaky argument. On the short side, yes Clerics will take more damage to kill with melee. They die just as fast as the other healers against skills/spells. Cleric's armor does give them additional 20% melee damage reduction over other healers which in a pure melee fight would give the Clerics an additional 185hp

Saying you will easily kill a Mystic if you sneak up on them has some truth, if the Mystic is unable to root you or get any distance. Sneaking up on a Disciple will not net you a skill, it would give the the join of forcepush, chakra, bandage, flying kick+forcepush, pray full hp Disciple 60% hp Ninja. Sneaking up on a Cleric will still net you a kill as your suggestion to just Invuln will burn a big chunk of mana and then you will still be a full HP Ninja vs a half mana Cleric.

I will add from personal experience that a Ninja with Might has killed me in battle in 10 seconds. That's including my 6 second invuln. So once again that a really shaky argument. a 20% armor absorption grants a Cleric one more hit from a Might'ed Ninja then the other healers

Every healer spec has benefits and set backs. Cleric recieved a much needed nerf and cleric does not need any more healers. I personally don't think that cleric's new skill fits them well however that is irrelevant to my arguement.

Firstly the word "nerf" is useless as it's just a personal opinion without any meat
Every class does have a strength and a weakness, but at this time Clerics strengths are not really apparent.
I prefer to think of strengths and weakness as the role a class is meant to fill and currently Clerics role is hard to see.

Sidenote: to all those who complain that disciple is a better healer than cleric that is not really true even though they are a far better class as they stand now. This is because disciples are not balanced, not because clerics need a buff.

Off-Topic but to many people keep bringing it up...
Once again this is wrong, disciples are better healers then Clerics at this time. I do think a VERY simple fix that might be able to balance Disciples damage to healing ratio against Clerics and Mystics would be to simply remove the 100% mana buff from Meditate and turn it into a +20 stamina only. This would force a choice between damage skills and heals effectively letting them choose to be a Squisy-CrowdControl-Healer or to be a Squishy-CrowdControl-Damage dealer but not both as they would run out of mana to quick

 

[TheMrLief]

Playing as a Bard I would lose 60% of the time to Clerics(At least before this supposed nerf) seeing how the majority of Clerics I fought used something I hate with all my guts called AutoSprint. Sure my first charge probably did alot of damage to the cleric with my slow-silence combo, but after that I'm completely out of Stamina which takes away my ability to move with any sort of speed at all, leaving the Cleric to knock me away with AutoSprint heal up in a few seconds to full and give me quite a beating and whenever I had any sort of damage tradeoff with them they would just heal it off in a matter of seconds and spam left click with might while smiting. Though that probably won't be a problem anymore due to the new Bard skill, but I just thought to let you know that Cleric(Before the update) + AutoSprint = Very strong.

 

[LordZelkova]

but I just thought to let you know that Cleric(Before the update) + AutoSprint = Very strong.

Isnt auto sprint illegall now? In any way shape or form? I was told in help chat that it was.

 

[Rumblestikk]

Literally I was going to try cleric but when I found out about this I swapped back to ranger. This makes the class less appealing overall.

 

[Eldrylars]

Playing as a Bard I would lose 60% of the time to Clerics(At least before this supposed nerf) seeing how the majority of Clerics I fought used something I hate with all my guts called AutoSprint. Sure my first charge probably did alot of damage to the cleric with my slow-silence combo, but after that I'm completely out of Stamina which takes away my ability to move with any sort of speed at all, leaving the Cleric to knock me away with AutoSprint heal up in a few seconds to full and give me quite a beating and whenever I had any sort of damage tradeoff with them they would just heal it off in a matter of seconds and spam left click with might while smiting. Though that probably won't be a problem anymore due to the new Bard skill, but I just thought to let you know that Cleric(Before the update) + AutoSprint = Very strong.

Most melee damage classes were buffed by autosprint.
Odd point to bring up though since autosprint has been illegal for all of Bastion. Perhaps you are referring to before Bastion?

 

[TheMrLief]

Most melee damage classes were buffed by autosprint.
Odd point to bring up though since autosprint has been illegal for all of Bastion. Perhaps you are referring to before Bastion?

No, people still seem to use it. I don't see why melee damage classes would want to use it though seeing how I don't usually want to knock my enemies farther away from me it seems that it helps out casters/healers much more since they want to keep a distance from the majority of their enemies.

 

[Eldrylars]

No, people still seem to use it. I don't see why melee damage classes would want to use it though seeing how I don't usually want to knock my enemies farther away from me it seems that it helps out casters/healers much more since they want to keep a distance from the majority of their enemies.

I would suggest going forward to just /pe create <name> seems to be using autosprint

 

[Kainzo]

I can see us either bringing the other group heals inline with the cleric or bringing the cleric's group heals in line with the others.


They have made good points, the cleric does have better armor than their counterparts.

Honestly, the disciple should be in rags/nothing, but that may be too harsh of a change.

 

[Eldrylars]

I can see us either bringing the other group heals inline with the cleric or bringing the cleric's group heals in line with the others.


They have made good points, the cleric does have better armor than their counterparts.

Honestly, the disciple should be in rags/nothing, but that may be too harsh of a change.

Not sure, armor is just such a limited thing. Full leather armor reduces melee damage by 28% which is pretty decent against a melee user, against any spells/skills it will have no effect. It's the same with Cleric or Pally or any other heavily armored class. Against Melee they will have some decent reduction but as soon as spells are being cast it's moot.
The problem with trying to balance Disciple with armor is that armor serves more functions when you consider enchantments.

If you reduce or remove the mana regained from meditation to bring their mana pool more inline with the other healers it will naturally force the Disciple to choose to play either healer or damage dealer.

Damn Disciple is invading my Cleric musings!

Anyhow, I would go back to my original question, Whats the role you want Cleric to fulfill? If I knew what place in the game you wanted it to function then I could make a better suggestion on how to help it fill that role and be balanced against the rest.

 

[JacobBurkey]

I would suggest going forward to just /pe create <name> seems to be using autosprint

A lot of different mods and admins have been saying it's legal and illegal, but I heard recently from an admin that if they're using auto-sprint in spout it's not illegal because they can't ban for things used in spout. Imo that's stupid, because I for one HATE autosprint because it ruins PvP completly.

 

[Eldrylars]

A lot of different mods and admins have been saying it's legal and illegal, but I heard recently from an admin that if they're using auto-sprint in spout it's not illegal because they can't ban for things used in spout. Imo that's stupid, because I for one HATE autosprint because it ruins PvP completly.

Agreed and this needs to be clarified in another place.
Back on topic
What role do you want Cleric to play in Herocraft?

 

[Dsawemd]

1. The revamp has throw Cleric out of the healer spotlight for the first time since Zeal, and once Disciple settles down I forsee a much more varied healer population. This is good. You WILL be upset as you no longer have "the corner" on healing and support even post Ampul loss (from original post LOL).

2. Let the revamp play out a bit before you go around suggesting that it largely be removed from your class.

 

[JacobBurkey]

Don't know if you're asking me or just saying that to get everyone on topic...
But, my opinion is to have cleric mainly be a support healing class. I haven't fought a cleric since the revamp, but before the revamp they were VERY strong, being able to smite over and over and constantly heal. Imo a support healing class shouldn't be able to kill other classes easily in a 1v1, but should have a partner whom they can keep healing so they can put out more damage.

 

[macura]

Clerics are currently armored healers with powerful heals and invulns. I don't really understand why they need anything else. If mana problems are such a problem then the mana regen rate could be increased but cleric does not need more powerful heals or new skills. Clerics have become more even with mystics especially with clerics losing might and mystics getting it. Now clerics isn't the only good support healer class and hopefully mystic can be used a little more.

 

[macura]

1. The revamp has throw Cleric out of the healer spotlight for the first time since Zeal, and once Disciple settles down I forsee a much more varied healer population. This is good. You WILL be upset as you no longer have "the corner" on healing and support even post Ampul loss (from original post LOL).

2. Let the revamp play out a bit before you go around suggesting that it largely be removed from your class.

I completely agree. It has been what? 4 days since the revamp. Just because cleric is no longer the most powerful and practically unstoppable in a group fight does not mean that the world is ending. Cleric is not broken, just not as good as it used to be.

 

[Eldrylars]

1. The revamp has throw Cleric out of the healer spotlight for the first time since Zeal, and once Disciple settles down I forsee a much more varied healer population. This is good. You WILL be upset as you no longer have "the corner" on healing and support even post Ampul loss (from original post LOL).

My argument is not that I "no longer have the corner." My argument is that the design of Cleric(it's place in combat) was broken in the process of trying to reign in it's melee capabilities.
At this time there is no reason to play Cleric as a "Healer" OR "Support" class as they are now weak in both for reason already stated earlier. There is no reason to take a Cleric in a group if you can get a Disciple or a Mystic.

2. Let the revamp play out a bit before you go around suggesting that it largely be removed from your class.

I have PvPed for several hours as a Cleric testing it's capabilities post revamp and since I am the longest running Cleric on the server and already familiar with the class I can tell you at this time that, although it would be better to have a Cleric then no healer in your group, that a group with a Mystic or a Disciple would be better. NO amount of time will change that simple truth, only changes to the classes themselves.

Don't know if you're asking me or just saying that to get everyone on topic...

Both I suppose

But, my opinion is to have cleric mainly be a support healing class. I haven't fought a cleric since the revamp, but before the revamp they were VERY strong, being able to smite over and over and constantly heal. Imo a support healing class shouldn't be able to kill other classes easily in a 1v1, but should have a partner whom they can keep healing so they can put out more damage.

A man after my own heart! Take a look at the bottom of the initial POST and you will see what my suggested changes were to put Cleric back in place as a Support/Healer.
Unfortunately you will not fight many (if any) Clerics until things are evened out as most Clerics I knew have already dropped the class and moved to anything else.

Clerics are currently armored healers with powerful heals and invulns. I don't really understand why they need anything else. If mana problems are such a problem then the mana regen rate could be increased but cleric does not need more powerful heals or new skills. Clerics have become more even with mystics especially with clerics losing might and mystics getting it. Now clerics isn't the only good support healer class and hopefully mystic can be used a little more.

I find this somewhat funny and unfortunately already discuss and discounted."Clerics are currently armored healers with powerful heals" The ONLY heal a Cleric has that a Mystic or a Disciple do not have is Group Heal which has already shown to be the weakest of the Healer class group healers. Otherwise Disciple and Mystic both have all the heals of a Cleric + 1. Regarding armor again, Cleric Armor vs Mystic/Disciple Armor is only a difference of 20% MELEE damage only. Regardless of my armor a Wizard can kill a Cleric with 1 (one, uno) rotation of spells if he leads with Arcane Blast. Clerics armor does nothing to help against most damage it takes.

"Clerics have finally been changed enough to make people play mystics! especially with clerics losing might and mystics getting it. Now clerics isn't a good support healer class and hopefully mystic can be used a little more."

-fixed for ya


Comparing Clerics to Mystics in general gets dicey but lets give it another quick go.

• Cleric Benefits: 20% melee damage reduction, 6 second invuln, 3 second invuln , GroupHeal.
• Mystic Benefits: 200% mana pool + 150 mana every 2 minutes, HoT, Group HoT, Bolt, Port, Invigorate, Root, Might?(I was not aware it was given to Mystics.)

The simple fact is that Mystics and Disciples are much better healers at this moment. I like the idea that Mystics and Disciples were given more abilities to play with and were given more play options but even if Cleric was left alone it would be at best even.
I personally don't want Cleric back to ware it was! I want its combat skills destroyed and replaced with the best healing and support skills it can while evening it out with the other healer.

1. Cleric: Poor Melee, Poor Spell Damage, Medium Armor, High Support, High Healing.
2. Mystic: Poor Melee, High Spell Damage, Light Armor, High Support, Medium Healing.
3. Disciple: High Melee, High Spell Damage, Light Armor, Medium Support, Medium Healing.

This would give players three different types of characters they could play and would be reletivaly balanced if good thought was put into it!

I completely agree. It has been what? 4 days since the revamp. Just because cleric is no longer the most powerful and practically unstoppable in a group fight does not mean that the world is ending. Cleric is not broken, just not as good as it used to be.

You are to a small extent right, Cleric can function and is better then no healer and yes the world is not ending but the role a Cleric played is no longer part of the game and at this point Cleric has no role. You are completely wrong otherwise though, groups with a Cleric would generally dominate groups without but that was by design, Clerics were never unstoppable, I have twice the death count that I do the kill count as would any other lifer Cleric on the server(If there was one.) No time will tell whether Cleric is usable at this point as most people specced out of Cleric after the revamp. I even did momentarily (much to the chagrin of my tiny wallet) to Disciple only to realize that I want to play healing and support and not an offensive toon. At this time there is no such role in Herocraft as both Mystic and Disciple are more offensive healers instead of defensive.

 

[macura]

Cleric is still very useable. Most people who specced out of it were not keen on playing a pure support class and when clerics were no longer invincible they switched out. I really don't understand your arguement because all it seems to bring up is that cleric is no longer the ultimate support class and somehow no longer fulfills such a role. Cleric in no way is a bad class where it stands at the moment and you keep saying that every other class has the exact same heals, but you sre forgetting about fullheal which i would consider to be pretty powerful (please don't complain about the hoth mana cost, it is a fking full heal).

Lastly please stop making the arguement that clerics were not too powerful for their intended uses. They were easily the best support and 1v1 class. I personally don't care about your k/d but i do find the fact that for around 2 weeks a cleric held #1 position in col to be substantiating. uin153

 

[ytiggidmas]

I'd like to see cleric changes somewhat reverted, with the exception of might. It allowed clerics to have too much damage 1v1,and too useful in teamfights to have along with guardianangel, and groupheal. I see no reason for a support class like cleric having a damage skill other than smite.

 

[Eldrylars]

Cleric is still very useable. Most people who specced out of it were not keen on playing a pure support class and when clerics were no longer invincible they switched out. I really don't understand your arguement because all it seems to bring up is that cleric is no longer the ultimate support class and somehow no longer fulfills such a role. Cleric in no way is a bad class where it stands at the moment and you keep saying that every other class has the exact same heals, but you sre forgetting about fullheal which i would consider to be pretty powerful (please don't complain about the hoth mana cost, it is a fking full heal).

I am tempted to say "We are just to two different minds on what makes a class useful" but you keeping bringing things up that don't make any sense.
Cleric has no support skills anymore other then heals that all other healing classes also have. A 3 second Guardian Angel that deals 100 damage is barely helpful and that's it! There are no support skills on Cleric anymore.
As far as FullHeal. It's not even bound to a macro. Not even to some letter like L. It's not the casting cost for it that makes it useless it's the warm up. Full heal is a skill meant to be used to on someone with low health(otherwise we just chant them) but with a 5 second warm up, by the time the spell is cast (if you don't get silenced or interrupted) most likely your already low health target is dead. 5 seconds is a loooong time in the heat of battle making the spell completely useless. Either you waste a lot of mana healing someone who is near full health or they die, either is not an option that any good support Cleric will take.
As far as Dsw stalking you with agree posts I can understand he is terribly angry at Clerics for all the losses he has taken in the arena( I know I alone beat him 100% of the time at least 20-30 times.) I do agree that Clerics needed to be tamed in 1v1. Let me ask you though Macura and Macura's shadow, how many times can you honestly remember ACTUALLY dying to a Cleric 1 on 1 in open field combat? I was one of the best Clerics on the server and as a Wizard you would just blink away and as a Ninja you beat me every time. I never have had the pleasure of fighting Dsw on the open field but there is no excuse for loosing to a Cleric as a Ranger open field. With ONLY using normal arrows and Ice arrow any decent Ranger could kill a Cleric easily as they had no way to close the gap or break the slow. There is no way a Cleric should be able to close the gap long enough to deal damage.
I did not want to get into this as I not as concerned about combat abilities, but basing a Clerics 1vs1 abilities using the arena is just not good. arenas are close range, no special gear, no where to run, to the death combat. Arenas CAN NOT BE COMPARED to over world combat. It would be impossible for a Cleric to kill a poorly played Wizard in open world combat, but in the Arenas it's nearly impossible for the Cleric to lose because there is no where for the Wizard to go.
Even in it's previous state Cleric was one of the weakest combat classes in open world combat (not healing)

Lastly please stop making the arguement that clerics were not too powerful for their intended uses. They were easily the best support and 1v1 class. I personally don't care about your k/d but i do find the fact that for around 2 weeks a cleric held #1 position in col to be substantiating. uin153

You cannot compare 1v1 locked arena battles against real world pvp, especially group pvp. You are smarter then that, stop trying.

I'd like to see cleric changes somewhat reverted, with the exception of might. It allowed clerics to have too much damage 1v1,and too useful in teamfights to have along with guardianangel, and groupheal. I see no reason for a support class like cleric having a damage skill other than smite.

I agree, and I believe Kainzo is changing Might and Wisdom to not effect the caster.[/quote]

 

[Eldrylars]

It may help you understand Macura and Dsw that it's just your personal opinion which is not commonly shared by the masses, as currently more then 80% of the people who have took the time to discuss and rate have agreed with what I am saying, if not in all, at least in most.

I think at this time we are beating a dead horse, which can be fun, but it's not useful. I know I am not going to change your mind and at this time it's up to Kainzo to take what was being said and make the decisions on how he wants Clerics role to play as a class.