Suggestion Clerics function...

[Eldrylars]

So what is the goal of playing a Cleric, Where is a Clerics place in Herocraft and where should Clerics be directed?​

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What has my goal been playing a Cleric?​

My goal playing a Cleric since the release of Bastion has been to support my friends while playing. Healing, Buffing, Rezzing. I chose Cleric knowing I would get almost no kills and that I would never have a chance of running someone down. I would help my friends do this in groups but I myself would never get the kills. As an example I have been in hundreds and hundreds of fights a over the last 8 months and I am still at 30/50ish K : D ration.​

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Where is a Clerics place in Herocraft?​

So where do Clerics fit into Herocraft? For the last many months Clerics have been the healer class, good group support, and a beast to kill 1 on 1 for most classes. Clerics weaknesses were primarily a no range, no crowd control and the lack of any burst damage. Clerics would rarely win 1 on 2 against most any classes but if played well they could absorb a lot of damage before they fell.​

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During my dueling days as a Cleric I found:​

• Cleric against Casters, Rangers and Dragoons I had a 90% win rate.
• Cleric against Runeblades, Mystics and Dreadknights I had an 50% win rate.
• Cleric against Sammys, Pallys , Bloodmages, Disciples, Ninjas and Bards I had about a 25% win rate.

You should be able to see from the break downs up there that silencers and skill breakers are the bane of Clerics and the Hearty classes were difficult with the squishy damage dealers having a very hard time against a Cleric.

If you look at the above information and were trying to balance the Cleric as a combat unit I would say job well done. Clerics can kill 33% easily 33% moderately and another 33% rarely. My purpose for playing a Cleric though was obviously not for 1 vs 1 it was for group fights. ​

While I had Ampul I was really able to keep things rolling. When Ampul was lost we were still a good asset as we had the corner on healing, group invuln, might and we still had a group heal. We were a good support class.​

With the recent update I am a bit confused about our place and how we should be playing a Cleric. Before we were a tanky support/healer, a survivor class. The changes to the classes seems to say that the direction Cleric is taking is more a damage dealer and less a support class. ​

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A quick reasoning behind my statement: ​

Group Invuln - damages the caster for 100 damage and now lasts for 3 seconds. This does a few things, firstly it does not last long enough to cast most of the different longer spell cast (1/2s cast spells only.) For instance, once casting group invuln to heal an ally I am barely able to get off a group heal before Invuln is gone.​

Might - One of the major group spells. Might was one of the primary skills which made Cleric a group component to a group.​

Anathema - This is a slighting higher damage version of smite, same mana per cast at 20. The cast time for this spell is 4 seconds of channeling and the range is about 7. This spell is another nail to that seems to try to change Cleric to an offensive fighting class. The problem with Anathema is it's unusable. With a 4 second cast and a range of only 7 it's nearly impossible to keep an opponent in range or if they are melee they can hit you at least 6 times and then skill break it before it goes off. There is no way to use this skill effectively against a seasoned PVPer. Not that it matters at this point but it also has a 20 second cool-down so the spell could only be used a couple times in a normal fight anyhow.​

Heals - Lets compare the skills of the main three healing classes.​

Healing:​

• Cleric: Mana: 228
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Group Heal
• Mystic: Mana: 329++(197+(130 every 2 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant, Rejuvenate
    • HealingBloom
    • Invigorate
• Disciple: Mana: 395+++(197+(197 every 3 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Balance
    • Chakra

Quick Comparison Between group healing spells as they are:​

• GroupHeal: Cost: 25M Range: 8 Warm up: 1s Healing: 210 Recast: 15s
• HealingBloom: Cost: 25M Range: 150 Warm up: 0s Healing: 180 Recast: 10s
• Chakra Cost: 15M+5S Range: 10 Warm up: 0s Healing: 110 Recast: 8s

After 30 seconds of combat:​

• Clerics: Healed: 420 Mana remaining: 170
• Mystics: Healed: 270(+90 over 10s) Mana remaining: 279
• Disciples: Healed: 440 Mana remaining: 335

Take into consideration that all the base healing spells are the same for all three classes.

• Bandage, Pray, Chant
  • Consider Balance and Rejuvenate, both spells Clerics have nothing to make up for.

This leaves it up to a Mana pool and since we have already seen that the Mana pool for both Mystic and Disciple are much much larger then Clerics we have to assume that the team with the Cleric will be the first one to run out of Mana during the fight and are then a lesser choice for your group then Mystics or Disciples when it comes to healing.

Disciples and Mystics are also both combat classes, especially Disciple. After the recent update Disciples have a 90% win rate against all classes in the arena.​

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Where should Clerics go in the future?​

I can tell you where I want Clerics to go in the future.​

I personally want Clerics to be turned back into the healing/support class! How do I suggest that being done?​

1. Give us an instant cast AOE heal similar to Chakra make it heal the group for 150 and damage the caster for 100.
2. Increase Group Heal to 300 if we are keeping the long cooldown.
3. Try to get Ampul back into the game. Not only useful requiring aiming skill as it can heal an enemy just as easily it was also an amazingly fun spell to play with.
4. Remove Anathema. It has no place, a Clerics place should not be dealing damage EVERY other class in the game is designed to do damage. Can't we have one that's designed to heal damage better?
5. Keep the -100 hp on Guardian and increase the invuln to 4 seconds. I am ok with trying to balance some health loss with it but it's nearly useless as it does not even let off a single spell cast. If we are keeping damage and a 3 second duration perhaps we can get the range increased to 15 or the cooldown decreased to 1 or 2 minutes?
6. Increase the cast time for Disciples "chant, pray and bandage" by 1 second and increase the casting cost by another 33% so that disciples are not better healers then Clerics with their ridiculous damage and crowd control.
7. Decrease the potency of Mystic's "chant, pray and bandage" by 20%
8. Give Might back to Clerics and change it to give group members 33% bonus damage and -33% damage to Clerics.
9. Change Revive to 7 second cast to give Clerics an edge over Pallies, Mystics and Wizards as all three are just as capable if not better then Clerics at reviving.

Kainzo, you had said in the past that groups should need a dedicated healer to be effective and I completely agree, but the direction that Cleric is being taken has made it a weaker healer in every way compared to every over "healer" class and now has lost two of its three group support skills. If you are still wanting to have a class that is a "healer" class it's disappearing! Save Cleric, remove it's self damage output abilities if you want to and give it back it's place as the go to healer class!

@northeaster345 Danielcan @LightningCape @bfittipaldi @Kainzo @Dazureus @Roadkill909 @leftovers5 @gabizou @pandaman7 @Rumblestikk @Ellron23 @Northac @lumont @Sigpit @Danda @EtKEnn @Symbolite @MultiHeartGold @Haxnn @AzenYumCha @Xerot @Oudaiesty EzMac2099 Rumblestikk Midnight_Storm67

 

[Oudaiesty]

Yeah cleric got smerved lol... It did seem like a really awkward way to work cleric...

 

[LightningCape]

While I do agree Cleric needs something, but I don't think nerfing Mystic which was just reworked and is now , unlike in the past, actualy playable is the answer.
ClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericCleric

 

[LordZelkova]

As a current Cleric, i can agree with so much said here, the main reason i went cleric was because of the mass amount of group support they could offer, with might, group heal, and guardian angel. I undestand that the amount of heals and 2 invul skills were a little overbearing, so i understand the nerf. But our 65 skill seems useless against anyone who knows how to move, the 3 seconds of guardian angel will barely let a bandage (holy word or whatever it is now) off. Ampul was a skill i was really excited to use, but that was removed for reasons i dont know (Was it broken? or was it too good?). The biggest loss for me, is the removal of might, again i understand that was most likely removed to make clerics seem less strong than they really are, but that was an amazing group support skill that fit with cleric at the time.
Im not saying that they need to back to the way they were, but to me it seems as if clerics were reworked to not be a Heal/Support anymore, and take on a Heal/Tanky-Bad Fighter role. I dunno, just my 2 cents.

Summary: Cleric was a little strong before, now its on the lower end of the spectrum, its not crap, but its no longer THE heal/support class that it seems to meant to have been.

 

[Danielcan]

Yeah you are right eldry , cleric is so weak right now...

 

[Eldrylars]

Yeah you are right eldry , cleric is so weak right now...

Unfortunately there is not much being said here. Can you expand with a sentence or two that actually explains what you are saying. If it's sarcasm use emoticons as it can be hard to read over the Internet.

 

[Eldrylars]

While I do agree Cleric needs something, but I don't think nerfing Mystic which was just reworked and is now , unlike in the past, actualy playable is the answer.
ClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericClericCleric

I am perfectly cool with their being multiple healing classes but Mystic was/is a more ranged combat oriented healer. I suppose you could say that Cleric was a close range combat healer before the changes.

If we are trying to make actual roles for the different classes then I would be all for having Mystic as a squishy healer/combat class and get Cleric setup as a tanky healer, healer class.

With my above reasoning, unfortunately at this point Disciple and Mystic are both better healers and better combat classes in every way.

Lets take away the Clerics combat abilities and make them pure support/healing

 

[Danielcan]

Unfortunately there is not much being said here. Can you expand with a sentence or two that actually explains what you are saying. If it's sarcasm use emoticons as it can be hard to read over the Internet.

1st- We lost might .
2nd- AoE heal is dead.
3rd- Guardian angel is dead.
4rd- WTF is Anathema , it doesn't mean anything to play cleric anymore.

 

[Kainzo]

Might and Wisdom are both being reworked.

We don't want to buff the clerics attack power.

You should not have a 90% win chance just because you are Class X vs Class Y.

Please stop using statements like "x is now bad" or "y is just not worth it" use objective statements to back your claims.

Tell me why you think Cleric heals are worse now after the update (even though the actual numbers did not change and in fact more effects were added)

 

[Templar_James]

Completely agree with Increase the cast time for Disciples "chant, pray and bandage" by 1 second and increase the casting cost by another 33% so that disciples are not better healers then Clerics with their ridiculous damage and crowd control.

Disciplines are just op right now completely a 38 disc beat me as a 61 dragoon spamming forcepush and forcepull which is on a 4 sec cooldown and does 70 damage per push/pull also using smite. No healer class should be able to beat a melee class with in a 6x6x8 box that was just insane...

 

[Eldrylars]

Let me begin a reply with this, the main thing I am trying to get figured out is the role a Cleric is supposed to play. I ask this because currently most of the support skills have been removed and the two other healer classes are able to perform better at healing then a Cleric.

Might and Wisdom are both being reworked.
We don't want to buff the clerics attack power.

Agreed, I don't care about attack power playing a cleric myself.
I am confused though that if you did not want to buff the attack power, whats the idea behind Anathema?
With Might and Wisdom being reworked hopefully that means we will see them return but without the self benefit that Clerics have been getting? Is so then that is perfect, in fact it would be even better if it weakened the Clerics attack power and gave an even greater benefit to the group.

You should not have a 90% win chance just because you are Class X vs Class Y

As much as it would be awesome to have a game where everyclass played as good as it can would have an even 50% chance against every other class, that's just not possible. I have not found a single game that every class is balanced against every other one.

Previously Cleric as a combat class was very well balanced with the above statement in mind. It was strong against 33% of the classes, moderate against 33% of the classes and weak against 33% of the classes. That some pretty good balancing if you are looking to balance it's 1 on 1 combat side.

Please stop using statements like "x is now bad" or "y is just not worth it" use objective statements to back your claims.

Hopefully that was directed as some of the follow up replies as I did not just say X is bad or Y is not worth it.

Tell me why you think Cleric heals are worse now after the update (even though the actual numbers did not change and in fact more effects were added)

I did give the reasoning behind my argument in the initial thread but I will take a minute and write it out as a short comparison.

Healing:

• Cleric: Mana: 228
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Group Heal
• Mystic: Mana: 329++(197+(130 every 2 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant, Rejuvenate
    • HealingBloom
    • Invigorate
• Disciple: Mana: 395+++(197+(197 every 3 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Balance
    • Chakra

Quick Comparison Between group healing spells as they are:​

• GroupHeal: Cost: 25M Range: 8 Warm up: 1s Healing: 210 Recast: 15s
• HealingBloom: Cost: 25M Range: 150 Warm up: 0s Healing: 180 Recast: 10s
• Chakra Cost: 15M+5S Range: 10 Warm up: 0s Healing: 110 Recast: 8s

After 30 seconds of combat:​

• Clerics: Healed: 420 Mana remaining: 170
• Mystics: Healed: 270(+90 over 10s) Mana remaining: 279
• Disciples: Healed: 440 Mana remaining: 335

Take into consideration that all the base healing spells are the same for all three classes?

• Bandage, Pray, Chant
  • Consider Balance and Rejuvenate, both spells Clerics have nothing to make up for.

This leaves it up to a Mana pool and since we have already seen that the Mana pool for both Mystic and Disciple are much much larger then Clerics we have to assume that the team with the Cleric will be the first one to run out of Mana during the fight and are then a lesser choice for your group then Mystics or Disciples when it comes to healing.

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Disciples and Mystics are also both combat classes, especially Disciple. After the recent update Disciples have a 90% win rate against all classes in the arena.​

 

[joshtsai]

As a Disciple that plans on mastering and staying Disciple, I can agree with the changes. The heals have a low cool down, semi low mana cost, and a very low warm up time. The fact that I don't have to use mend in a fight is saying something.

Good Specific Changes:

DivineWord:
Warmup 3 seconds
Cool down: 6 seconds
Mana Cost: 30
Renewal
Warmup: 2 Sec
Cool down 5.5 Sec
Mana Cost 30


Keep also in mind that a Disciple without Meditate and unmastered also runs out of mana quite fast.

 

[Templar_James]

As a Disciple that plans on mastering and staying Disciple, I can agree with the changes. The heals have a low cool down, semi low mana cost, and a very low warm up time. The fact that I don't have to use mend in a fight is saying something.

Good Specific Changes:

DivineWord:
Warmup 3 seconds
Cool down: 6 seconds
Mana Cost: 30
Renewal
Warmup: 2 Sec
Cool down 5.5 Sec
Mana Cost 30


Keep also in mind that a Disciple without Meditate and unmastered also runs out of mana quite fast.

Runs out of mana fast? The 38 disc used forcepush 4 times forcepull 4 times and smite 2 times and I think a heal and still was spamming spells every second

If disc stays like this then obviously I'm going disc soon.

 

[Kainzo]

Let me begin a reply with this, the main thing I am trying to get figured out is the role a Cleric is supposed to play. I ask this because currently most of the support skills have been removed and the two other healer classes are able to perform better at healing then a Cleric.



Agreed, I don't care about attack power playing a cleric myself.
I am confused though that if you did not want to buff the attack power, whats the idea behind Anathema?
With Might and Wisdom being reworked hopefully that means we will see them return but without the self benefit that Clerics have been getting? Is so then that is perfect, in fact it would be even better if it weakened the Clerics attack power and gave an even greater benefit to the group.



As much as it would be awesome to have a game where everyclass played as good as it can would have an even 50% chance against every other class, that's just not possible. I have not found a single game that every class is balanced against every other one.

Previously Cleric as a combat class was very well balanced with the above statement in mind. It was strong against 33% of the classes, moderate against 33% of the classes and weak against 33% of the classes. That some pretty good balancing if you are looking to balance it's 1 on 1 combat side.



Hopefully that was directed as some of the follow up replies as I did not just say X is bad or Y is not worth it.



I did give the reasoning behind my argument in the initial thread but I will take a minute and write it out as a short comparison.

Healing:

• Cleric: Mana: 228
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Group Heal
• Mystic: Mana: 329++(197+(130 every 2 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant, Rejuvenate
    • HealingBloom
    • Invigorate
• Disciple: Mana: 395+++(197+(197 every 3 minutes))
  • Targeted healing spells: Bandage, Pray, Chant
    • Balance
    • Chakra

Quick Comparison Between group healing spells as they are:​

• GroupHeal: Cost: 25M Range: 8 Warm up: 1s Healing: 210 Recast: 15s
• HealingBloom: Cost: 25M Range: 150 Warm up: 0s Healing: 180 Recast: 10s
• Chakra Cost: 15M+5S Range: 10 Warm up: 0s Healing: 110 Recast: 8s

After 30 seconds of combat:​

• Clerics: Healed: 420 Mana remaining: 170
• Mystics: Healed: 270(+90 over 10s) Mana remaining: 279
• Disciples: Healed: 440 Mana remaining: 335

Take into consideration that all the base healing spells are the same for all three classes?

• Bandage, Pray, Chant
  • Consider Balance and Rejuvenate, both spells Clerics have nothing to make up for.

This leaves it up to a Mana pool and since we have already seen that the Mana pool for both Mystic and Disciple are much much larger then Clerics we have to assume that the team with the Cleric will be the first one to run out of Mana during the fight and are then a lesser choice for your group then Mystics or Disciples when it comes to healing.

​

Disciples and Mystics are also both combat classes, especially Disciple. After the recent update Disciples have a 90% win rate against all classes in the arena.​

All classes are "Combat" classes. Professions are not combat classes.
Anywho.
Bandage/Pray/Chant have been removed from Cleric - are you referring to their new counterparts?

I can see the issue with the cast time and the mana costs and we'll aim at fixing those.
There's going to be a caster range/dmg revamp and healers will get some love out of this.

I'd like your help to ensure that they're balance Eld if you have time.

 

[Eldrylars]

Runs out of mana fast? The 38 disc used forcepush 4 times forcepull 4 times and smite 2 times and I think a heal and still was spamming spells every second

If disc stays like this then obviously I'm going disc soon.

This is not the place to Rage about disciple, the only reason I brought up disciple is because it is not a better healer then Cleric. Yes Disciple has many other things to balance but that's for a different thread as I don't play Disciple.

 

[joshtsai]

Runs out of mana fast? The 38 disc used forcepush 4 times forcepull 4 times and smite 2 times and I think a heal and still was spamming spells every second

If disc stays like this then obviously I'm going disc soon.

Said 38 Disciple doesn't have the main heals, which are obtained at level 50. These heals can be used multiple times during a fight and drain mana the best.
Both currently take up 25 mana. Force push and pull take up 10 mana, smite takes up 20 mana. The only heal I can see a Disciple in your small room was Chakra, that heals 89 Hp on the user and takes 15 mana. All the lower leveled Disciple skills take up no mana.

When I get the chance I guess I could make a Fix Disciple Thread.

 

[Eldrylars]

All classes are "Combat" classes. Professions are not combat classes.
Anywho.

EDIT: What I was trying to say is more like this,
Hmm, I will put them more to roles instead of classes. Cleric role in my mind has been healing/support, while most other classes are damage/crowd control. Obviously there are some exceptions such as Bard, Mystic, Disciple.

Bandage/Pray/Chant have been removed from Cleric - are you referring to their new counterparts?

Yes I was just using their old names to avoid confusions as they are all the same in function at this time.

I can see the issue with the cast time and the mana costs and we'll aim at fixing those.
There's going to be a caster range/dmg revamp and healers will get some love out of this.

I'd like your help to ensure that they're balance Eld if you have time.

I would be happy to help where I can. I suppose I have been trying to for a while, I might as well app it up

 

[macura]

I actually liked this update relative to where cleric stands especially with the removal of might. Before the update they were not a balanced spec at all. In 1v1s as a cleric the only people who were able to kill be were sammies (sometimes) and a paladin who only won by a half a heart.

You can use comparisons between healer specs with their mana pools, cost and heals and so on but you are missing several key points.

1. Chakra consumes both mana and stamina.
2.Clerics are tanky as fuck and have survivability out their ass.

I will further elaborate upon my second point here. Clerics are extremely tanky for being a healer and have a lot of survivability. They are far harder the kill than any other healer spec. Lets say i (ninja) was in a group fight. I would attempt to smoke, walk around everyone and kill the healer. If i succeed and i get behind my target if it were a mystic the mystic would pretty much be fucked. They would pop like a caster and would not be able to handle my burst with their heal over time skills. If it were a cleric that i got behind the guy would most likely be able to tank the damage or invuln and run off. On top of this if a cleric is caught using a targeted heal for another person they will take a little damage and be knocked away but if another healer spec is attacked when targeting a heal they will die. This is a very similar point to my last one however it is significant because it shows that accessability to the use of many healing skills is further hindered by lack of armor. Clerics are significantly harder to kill than other healers are so it would be sense for there to be some sort of compensation.

Every healer spec has benefits and set backs. Cleric recieved a much needed nerf and cleric does not need any more healers. I personally don't think that cleric's new skill fits them well however that is irrelevant to my arguement.

Sidenote: to all those who complain that disciple is a better healer than cleric that is not really true even though they are a far better class as they stand now. This is because disciples are not balanced, not because clerics need a buff.

 

[Templar_James]

Exactly what I said macura Sidenote: to all those who complain that disciple is a better healer than cleric that is not really true even though they are a far better class as they stand now. This is because disciples are not balanced, not because clerics need a buff.

 

[0xNaomi]

In terms of offense, I previously suggested reducing cleric's base attack so that their attack with might becomes what it is *without* now, thus keeping attack usually down until might is used, and keeping the effect on others.

Though, these ideas (except macura's) are great, too. Hope they get something going.