Cleric

[Egorh]

A regular revive should be 2 minutes but a full health revive should always be 5 minutes

I am a bit confused on what you mean. To be Revived in HeroCraft you need to die and then respawn. You are already full health and the only reason you wouldn't be full health is if you took more damage after you respawned.

 

[Avoir]

This is what I think

A: Fullheal needs a longer CD I was thinking around 45-60, as we all saw in the pvp tourney the skill is just so powerful and way to easy to get off in fights. Yes this is THE main healing class on the server but it should not be able to spam full heals left and right.

B: I think healer wise we need to look at the resurrection cool downs, players stack classes like paladin, BM, cleric, Druid on a team because 3 low cooldown resurrections are just so devastating. I suggest to bring the cool down to 5 minutes all around so that players actually need to play smart.

 

[malikdanab]

Just going to bring up Sacred Hymn. So its the second strongest single target heal after full heal. If fullheal is going to get a longer CD that leaves cleric with only 2 "Spammable" single heals. I'd suggest:

Increase base heal from: 200->250
Increase scaling from: 3.125->5
Increase Mana from: 200->275
Add warm-up of 4 seconds
Decrease cooldown to 30-45

Sidenote: Increase Warm-up on full heal to 5-6 seconds.

 

[Avoir]

Just going to bring up Sacred Hymn. So its the second strongest single target heal after full heal. If fullheal is going to get a longer CD that leaves cleric with only 2 "Spammable" single heals. I'd suggest:

Increase base heal from: 200->250
Increase scaling from: 3.125->5
Add warm-up of 4 seconds
Decrease cooldown to 30-45

Sidenote: Increase Warm-up on full heal to 5-6 seconds.

Cleric heals are already really strong buffing them anymore would just make the class even stronger. A fullheal CD increase doesn't mean you increase every single heal and how they scale.

 

[Eldrylars]

Just going to bring up Sacred Hymn. So its the second strongest single target heal after full heal. If fullheal is going to get a longer CD that leaves cleric with only 2 "Spammable" single heals. I'd suggest:

Increase base heal from: 200->250
Increase scaling from: 3.125->5
Add warm-up of 4 seconds
Decrease cooldown to 30-45

Sidenote: Increase Warm-up on full heal to 5-6 seconds.

SacredHymn was added to give the Cleric an once/twice a fight oh-shit heal. Changing it in that way would change it's whole dynamic.

I have been fighting to have "Pray" returned to Cleric since Delf removed it. I never understood why it was removed but your suggestions would change it from a more skilled timing heal, to Pray. Just add Pray back.

 

[Eldrylars]

On the matter of Cleric, I devoted a lot of time(manyx10 hours) in the past talking about it and it's short comings and how to fix it, both with and without coding.

All four of those links have good information and have been part of my argument for Cleric for the last 2 years and should be taken into consideration when dealing with Cleric. Although little tweaks to change things that seem like problems, is not necessarily a bad thing, I don't feel it's balancing the class over all and more so just tweaking skills that by themselves(or in this case boosted by group skills) seem to be to strong.

Firstly, a little rant,

Spoiler: Rant

Right now, we are talking about balancing Cleric, due to tournament results. Let me clarify myself.

Fullheal and Revive have never been brought up as a problem until after they were used in a tournament, not even once in the 1.5 years I have been on balance. Fullheal is not normally an issue being on a lower CD because it takes 33% of the Clerics mana, which no Cleric can sustain without major mana support such as Beguiler, Bard or Necro. Without a class boosting the Clerics mana pool, historically the Cleric would cast full heal 3 times and then be out of mana and out of a job, so it's never been a problem. The same would go for any mana based class being OP with it's top tier skills if it did not have to worry about it's mana. So this huge worry over Fullheal in my eyes is blown out of proportion as the Cleric, by itself cannot cast the spell more then 3/4 times without completely running out of mana which would then make it useless for the next couple minutes.

As for Revive, the only time I have heard people complain about revive is also in tournaments, because in open world it's much more effective to just GTP an entire group then to solo revive one dead member. Have people been revived mid fight in open world? Hell yes, but it was never considered over powered because compared to the wizard based alternative it's weak. Of course in tournaments Revive is super powerful, because GTP is not allowed and due to the tight quarters it would be harder to get the GTP off anyhow, but we really should not be freaking out to much about balancing classes for Tournaments, as they are once a 1,2 or 3 moth occurrence.

For all the tags, for Cleric I made my best suggestions to start here. Fill up the Clerics time more by bringing back the missing heal "pray" decrease the cooldowns drastically as suggested and if you want to add some damage back into it then rebalance smite.

http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/changes.47840/#post-381088
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/changes.47840/#post-381120
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/changes.47840/page-2#post-381264
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/changes.47840/page-2#post-382078

I can go back into specific details, but I lest most of it out here already.

 

[malikdanab]

Cleric heals are already really strong buffing them anymore would just make the class even stronger. A fullheal CD increase doesn't mean you increase every single heal and how they scale.

Not exactly a buff, adding a warm-up on it changes the skill completely.

That said, I didn't mean the buff the skill, but rather make it the "3rd" tier of heal after sacred touch. If it was up to me, the skill would be removed in favor of another support skill. The skill doesn't really bring anything to clerics kit besides an "Oh Shit" button.

 

[Irishman81]

Ok so before you guys start fighting like I'm seeing on eldry's rework thread, can we just agree on a couple small changes to set a baseline, then we can move on to other healers.

 

[Avoir]

Ok so before you guys start fighting like I'm seeing on eldry's rework thread, can we just agree on a couple small changes to set a baseline, then we can move on to other healers.

Fullheal: 20s -> 45s
Warmup: 4s-> 2s

Reasons: The higher cd will make the skill less spam able.

Revive for every healer increased to 5min.

Reason: Revive is a very strong skill and should not be used more then once in a fight (unless you have multiple classes that can do it).

Thats what I think.

 

[Egorh]

Fullheal: 20s -> 45s

Revive for every healer increased to 5min.

Thats what I think.

This and...I would like to transfer some power from Divine Blessing to Holy Water. It wont make a huge difference and is not a big deal if we don't put it in but I feel it would be good to give the skill shot a bit more power to it.

 

[Eldrylars]

Fullheal: 20s -> 45s
Warmup: 4s-> 2s

Reasons: The higher cd will make the skill less spam able.

Revive for every healer increased to 5min.

Reason: Revive is a very strong skill and should not be used more then once in a fight (unless you have multiple classes that can do it).

Thats what I think.

I would be worried that a 2 second warmup would be to short. It's a very powerful spell, and in a 1v1 it would heal almost 800 damage on the Cleric and be nearly unstoppable.

We can test it out but if it's reduced that much it could make the Cleric nearly invincible in 1v1.

I still don't feel like Revive is a problem I still personally see it to be far inferior to GTP in fights, but I seem to be the only one to currently hold this stance, so I will back down on the idea.

As far as Divine -> Waters, I feel it's a wash and un-needed but I also don't see that it would be a problem.

Lets try them out.

 

[Glacial_Reign]

Revive is a huge problem since people want fights to last longer. It will be ridiculous if the cd wasn't changed. 5 mins sounds fine to me.

 

[Eldrylars]

Ok so before you guys start fighting like I'm seeing on eldry's rework thread, can we just agree on a couple small changes to set a baseline, then we can move on to other healers.

Lol, nothing to fear here I believe.

Class remake suggestions is an open topic for all players of the server to chime in and make their views know, as well as have some fun.
Balance team, is for hard crunching problems of classes that are in some way out of balance against their counterparts.

Although I don't agree that targeting individual skills is the best way to handle it balancing a class, because the class as a whole as well as it's counter part classes needs to be looked it to make it truly balanced, this is a good start for the team. Working on the healer classes in general is the best place to start as they have the smallest player base, so the effects will be felt the least if something gets thrown out of whack.

 

[Eldrylars]

Revive is a huge problem since people want fights to last longer. It will be ridiculous if the cd wasn't changed. 5 mins sounds fine to me.

If we want fights to last longer, wouldn't the reverse be true and the spell should be used more frequently? or are you saying that the playerbase wants the fights to last longer, but we (the server) want them to be over more quickly, so the cool down should be increased.

 

[Egorh]

Oh, didn't see that Franky reduced the warm-up of FullHeal to 2s. Keep it at 4s imo. It is still a very strong skill that should be difficult to get off

 

[Irishman81]

Full heal cd 20-45 seconds
Increase revive cooldown on all healers to 3 minutes.

I think this is all that's necessary for now, but we can always test it.

 

[malikdanab]

Just going to point out that holy aura heals less than divine blessing, on a longer cooldown, and requires the cleric to stay next to the person. The numbers for all the AOE heals need to be looked at.

 

[Eldrylars]

Just going to point out that holy aura heals less than divine blessing, on a longer cooldown, and requires the cleric to stay next to the person. The numbers for all the AOE heals need to be looked at.

I have always found holy aura laughable on the Cleric. The mana it costs to cast is not worth it when you consider the comparison of HolyWater and Divine. Only time I ever use HolyAure is as an opener or when I am rolling with a Bard or Beguiler due to it's limited range, limited heal and cost.

 

[Egorh]

I'd like to throw another idea out here. Reduce Cleric's base armor weight

• 50 -> 45

Cleric just gets too much free tankiness with that much base armor weight and if people want to get the same amount of armor as before they will need to invest more into endurance. Meaning that people may need to choose between having 40 wisdom or the previous armor.

Is everyone happy with these Cleric changes?

• FullHeal
  • Cooldown: 20s -> 45s
• Revive
  • Cooldown: 4 minutes (it was pretty split between 3 min and 5 min so I just averaged it out at 4 min)

MAYBE

• Armor Weight: 50 -> 45

 

[Irishman81]

I'd like to throw another idea out here. Reduce Cleric's base armor weight

• 50 -> 45

Cleric just gets too much free tankiness with that much base armor weight and if people want to get the same amount of armor as before they will need to invest more into endurance. Meaning that people may need to choose between having 40 wisdom or the previous armor.

Is everyone happy with these Cleric changes?

• FullHeal
  • Cooldown: 20s -> 45s
• Revive
  • Cooldown: 4 minutes (it was pretty split between 3 min and 5 min so I just averaged it out at 4 min)

MAYBE

• Armor Weight: 50 -> 45

I'm good with all changes including the armor weight, once we finalize on these I'd like to start on DruidDruid