[Classes] Rework of all classes, for balance and uniqueness

[Delnar_Ersike]

As I hinted in my whitelist application on the Minecraft forums, Herocraft's classes need a bit of a rework. For now, I'll only touch combat classes. Before anyone asks, my character is a rogue on his way to becoming a Ranger. And no, this isn't a "WoWify" suggestion list at all.

First things first: instead of 16 combat classes, there should be 12. There are multiple reasons for this one, but it all boils down to two factors: a) with fewer classes, it should be easier to differentiate between classes; and b) 12 is known to be a sort of "magic number" game design-wise, as it allows enough complexity in the system while still being easy to grasp. I'll go into further detail if anyone asks. This means a couple classes need to go, and if you're still interested, read on.

- WARNING: Long Post Incoming! If at any point you think to yourself "TL;DR", then skip to the section containing your own class and only read that -

Changes to the basic combat classes:

• Rogue's "Bite" Skill renamed to "Maim" (who in their right mind bites their opponent in melee combat?), the skill itself is unchanged.
• Rogue is renamed to Thief, while Thief subclass is renamed to Rogue. It just seems more appropriate that way, but if you don't like it, fine.
• Warrior's "Bite" Skill removed. Instead, they get a passive called "Conditioning" that increases the % of damage mitigated to armor, as well as increasing speed when blocking with a weapon (not to non-blocking speeds, though). They are, after all, supposed to be tanks, no?
• Caster and Healer "Scan" Skill removed, instead "Fireball" and "Smite" are split into two levels: at level 1, Fireball deals only 8 damage but consumes 10 MP, while Smite only deals 7 damage but consumes 15 MP. When the "Scan" skill should be acquired, both "Fireball" and "Smite" increase in power to 14 DMG/15 MP and 10 DMG/20 MP respectively. However, because I think Healers need a bit of early offense (as up until level 10, they are worse than Casters in every way except for their ability to wield Diamond Hoes, which does not make up for having a lower DMG but higher MP cost and higher CD skill), Smite deals double damage to the Undead (Zombies, Skeletons, Pig Zombies, Spider-riding Skeletons).
  • Another possibility would be to add "Scan" to all classes with a level requirement of 1. A third possibility would be to integrate it with the Ranger's "Track" skill, because IMO, the Ranger is the only class who would make use of "Scan" regularly.

Changes to Warrior subclasses:

• All subclasses gain "Conditioning" at level 1
• Samurai is removed.
  • Reason: Of all the Warrior subclasses, the Samurai seemed to be the least Warrior-like and more Rogue-like than anything else. Not only did the Samurai have the least amount of skills, but they appeared to be, if anything, mainly against Casters, once again making the Samurai seem more Rogue-like than Warrior-like. In addition, the essential functionality of the Samurai as a pure damage-dealing Warrior was already implemented in the Dragoon. As for pure Sword damage, we already have the Ninja and the old Thief.
• To compensate for Samurai removal, Dreadknight's Damage is up'ed to match (or go above) Dragoon's. As a result, "Cleave" is now unique to the Dragoon. If Dreadknight becomes to overpowered, change his HP/level to 0.55 and his base HP to 85.
• Dreadknight's "Endurance" skill changed to "Pain Mirror". Instead of dealing and taking less damage, "Pain Mirror" reflects a % of all damage onto an area around the Dreadknight, similar to the way "Reflect" works, but instead of reflecting the damage to the source, the damage is reflected onto all units in an area around the Dreadknight. This makes the Dreadknight more offensive, as well as make "Endurance" unique to the Paladin. "Pain Mirror"'s level requirement changed to 35 to match Paladin's "Endurance".
• Dreadknight's "Become Death" skill changed so Undead can still be taunted to attack him, but still deal no damage.
• Paladin's "Shield" is renamed to "Holy Shield": when blocking for more than 0.5 seconds, drastically reduces the amount of damage taken. The 1 second rule is so quick-blocking doesn't trigger the effect.
• Dragoon gets "Battle Trance" at level 45 (an offshoot of old Samurai's "Bladegrasp"): For 1 iron ingot, all melee damage is drastically reduced for a duration or the next x melee attacks (amount TBD). For balance, all Dragoon skills' damage is slightly reduced (amount TBD, once again).
• Dreadknight's "Soulbond" skill is removed, making the skill unique to the Paladin.
• Dreadknight's "Curse" skill buffed with an additional effect: while the spell is active, the next skill the enemy uses will fizzle (the skill will do nothing, but MP is expended and CD is activated). For balance, "Curse"'s duration is reduced.

Result: Dragoon and Paladin are a bit more tanky, Dreadknight is a bit less tanky, but a bit more offensive and a bit more effective vs. casters. All warrior subclasses now have 11 skills in total.

Changes to Thief subclasses:

• All subclasses now gain "Maim" at level 1.
• Bard is removed. Some of his auras will be passed onto the Healer subclasses.
  • Reason: the Bard is a jack of all trades but a master of none. This means two things: 1) none of the Bard's abilities were original; and 2) this class is anything but Rogue-like. More than anything, due to the Bard's auras and lack of strong offensive capabilities, he seemed more Healer-like than anything else. Bards are also the least popular class among all Rogue subclasses.
• Rogue can now use Bow, but at much lower (depending on balance, half, third, or quarter) efficiency compared to Ranger.
• Ranger's "Barrage" skill removed.
• Ranger's "Arrowstorm" skill replaced with "Power Shot": the next arrow shot will have 10x lower drop speed, pierce targets, and deal a LOT more damage (amount TBD).
  • If "Power Shot" cannot be coded into the game, an alternative would be "Bursting Shot": the next arrow shot will deal a LOT more damage and will spawn a "Barrage"-like arrow storm from the target (these arrows deal normal damage, though).
• Ranger's "Ice Arrow" replaced with "Entangling Shot" (gained at level 30): the next arrow will Entangle the target, which means movement speed is reduced by 100% for 1 seconds, then is slowly restored over the next 5 seconds. Both durations can be tweaked for balancing purposes.
• Ranger's "Fire Arrow" replaced with "Burning Shot": the next arrow that hits will set the target on fire if target is not on fire. If target is already on fire, resets the burning duration.
• Ranger's "Tame Wolf" skill's level requirement lowered to level 40 and "Farsight" to level 50.
• Ranger gains "Poison Shot" skill as compensation for not having Assassin's Blade: the next arrow will poison the target, dealing 1 damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.
• For balance, Ranger can no longer use Diamond Axes. They can still deal massive damage with bows, but, like Casters and Healers, should not also be competent in melee as well.
• Ninja's "Blackjack" skill removed, skill is now unique to the Rogue.
• Ninja gains "Leap" skill as compensation for losing "Blackjack": the Ninja's next jump will be 3x (amount can be tweaked) as high. Using Leap while "smoked" does not remove invisibility.
• Rogue's "Tumble" skill removed, skill is now unique to the Ninja within the Thief subclass.
• Ninja's Sword damage lowered. To compensate, Ninja gains a passive called "Ambush" at level 45 that increases sword damage when attacking from a fall based on fall height.
• Rogue gains "Grapple Shot" skill as compensation for losing "Tumble": For 1 string, the next arrow shot will pull the Thief to the block it was shot into, within reason. The mechanics of the skill is "borrowed" from another Minecraft Multiplayer Server/Mod, Supernaturals, though the idea is from the Thief series.
  • Here's a demonstration video of the mechanics; note that Spout is not required:
• Rogue's "Pickpocket" skill changed to also steal gold and chance of success increased if stealthed.
• Rogue gains "Flashbang" skill at level 45 (yup, another idea from the Thief series): for 1 item (TBD, but probably gunpowder), lightning effects happen in rapid succession and deal minor damage within a small area for a duration (TBD) around the Rogue's location at the time of him using the skill (I can only imagine this to be extremely disorienting and/or annoying).
• Rogue's Sword damage lowered to compensate for all the buffs he received.

Result: Ranger's melee and crowd control power reduced, but ranged and dueling power increased. Ninja and Rogue are no longer clones, Ninja becoming a sort of stealthy dragoon, while Rogue becoming a dirty fighter and more rogue-like. If these changes are implemented, I especially can't wait to see Ninjas' drop-onto-target hit, take no damage from fall, Garotte, Smoke (Escape Artist if already rooted), Leap, drop-onto-target finishing blow combos in action. All Thief subclasses now have 10 skills in total.

Changes to Caster subclasses:

• All subclasses lose "Scan" at level 1, but gain "Consume" at level 1 (according to wiki, Necromancer and Beguiler did not have "Consume")
• Wizard is removed, but Geomancer is renamed to Wizard. As a result, "Mana Shield" is unique to the Beguiler.
  • Reason: The Wizard had the same role as the Geomancer in most cases, the only exception being teleport spells. However, other than teleport spells, the Geomancer, IMO, triumphs over the Wizard: their offensive capabilities are similar, but none of the Geomancer's skills have casting times, many of the Geomancer's skills have either a burning or slowing effect, the Wizard's spells are more mana-heavy, and the Geomancer's defensive skills are far superior to the Wizard's.
• Wizard's "Reflect" is removed, skill is now unique to the Beguiler.
• Wizard's "Blaze" removed, "Firewall"'s level requirement changed to 50 to compensate.
• Wizard gains old Wizard's "Replenish Mana" and "Port" skills. "Replenish Mana" now also has a casting time.
• Beguiler gains old Wizard's "Blink" and "Group Teleport" skills. To compensate, "Purge", "Safefall Other" and "Might" are removed. As a result, "Group Teleport" and "Blink" are now unique to the Beguiler.
• Beguiler's Dispel changed to remove all buffs, positive and negative, in an area around the target. Dispel also cannot fizzle. To compensate, Dispel has a higher MP cost and CD and requires level 25 (so it combines with "Purge").
• Beguiler's RegenMana passive buffed to provide +2 mana per tick, but also gives +1 mana per tick to party members.
• Beguiler Hoe damage increased (at least +1 to at least Gold and Diamond).
• Beguiler's "Sonic Boom" buffed to also either generate a sound for everyone that drowns out all other sounds (like a lightning effect) or silence all sounds for everyone. If neither is possible (well, without Spout, at least), "Sonic Boom" is buffed to "resonate" everyone, meaning they move a distance away from the Beguiler, then move double that distance toward him, then move back to their original spot, facing a random direction (if they fall off a cliff in the meantime, that is the point). To compensate, "Sonic Boom" has a short warm-up time (1 second or less).
• Necromancer's "Hellgate" level requirement is lowered to 45.
• Necromancer's "Unheal" replaced with "Zombify": same effect has "Unheal", but has a level requirement of 50 and also turns target into non-NPC Undead for the duration (so, for example, double damage from Smite, but Become Death doesn't turn caster invisible to them). To compensate, CD is increased.
• To compensate for buffs, all teleport skills now have a warm-up time, during which any damage received will interrupt the spell (spell fizzles and MP is expended, but CD does not trigger). Some of Wizard's skills also get a short (1 second or less) warm-up time to compensate for buffs.

Result: Wizard stays combat-oriented, but gains some of old Wizard's utility spells. Necromancer is buffed a bit. Beguiler changed incredibly so spells are a lot more utility-oriented and unique, while offensive capability also increased through weapons. Beguiler becomes something of a Battlemage now, blinking around and messing with your head, while bashing it in at the same time with his hoe/staff. Beguiler's party role also changed to be less of a buffer and more of a controller/utility guy. All Caster subclasses now have 12 skills in total.

Changes to Healer subclasses:

• All subclasses lose "Scan" at level 1.
• Disciple is removed.
  • Reason: this was probably the hardest choice of which class to remove, but in the end, because the Disciple was more Warrior-like than Healer-like and because almost all of his skills can be found on other classes as well, I went with removing the Disciple over the Bloodmage.
• Cleric's "Dispel" replaced with "Cure": same effect as old "Dispel", but also heals a small amount (TBD, but probably 5 HP). To compensate, has higher CD.
• Cleric's "Pray" replaced with a weaker form of "Chant" (20 HP heal for 3 second warm-up and 25 MP, level requirement is 25), old "Chant" removed.
• Cleric gains "Quicken" at level 30, identical to old Bard's "Quicken".
• Cleric's "Group Heal" level requirement changed to 50.
• Druid's "Forage" skill replaced with "Nature's Friend": same skill as Ranger's "Tame Wolf", but also levels up at level 40 and 55, allowing up to 2 and 3 wolves respectively versus the original single wolf.
• Druid's "Rejuvinate" skill buffed to heal 28 HP over 7 seconds, in addition to removing all DoT effects.
• Druid's "Pray" replaced with "Poison Aura": for an item (TBD, but probably a Spider Eye), all incoming PvE and PvP damage is reduced by 25% and anyone who hits the Druid with a melee weapon is poisoned for 4 seconds, taking 2 damage every second and being slowed both movement-wise and attack-wise by a low % (the aura lasts for a duration TBD). Any additional attacks will reset the poison counter, as well as stacking the slow up to 5 times. (The numbers can be tweaked). The skill levels up at level 45, extending the aura to all party members. "Pray" is now unique to the Paladin.
• Bloodmage's "Syphon" replaced with "Blood Bridge": same effect, as "Syphon", but with a lower CD and more HP transferred to target.
• Bloodmage's "Soulbond" replaced with "Sacrifice": the Bloodmage sacrifices HP to increase party MP regen for a duration TBD. "Soulbond" is now unique to the Paladin.
• Bloodmage's "Soul Leech" replaced with "Blood Pact", which is identical to the old Disciple's "Reborn".
• Bloodmage's "Chant" replaced with "Siphoning Aura": after a casting time (has HP cost), all party members gain a % of all non-skill damage they deal back as health for a duration.
• Bloodmage gains "Soul Mark" at level 35: for an item (TBD, but probably a Redstone) and HP as well as MP, target takes a % increased damage from all sources for a duration.

Result: Cleric has slightly more variety on support spells. Druid buffed significantly and starts to fill a role similar to a defensive Necromancer (due to minions) instead of a weaker Cleric. Bloodmage changed drastically to be a lot more unique, as well as a debuffer instead of a buffer, but still filling a support role instead of a role more fitting for a Caster. All Healer subclasses now have 11 skills in total.

- End of Long Post -

Remember, all numbers can be tweaked, it's the ideas that count. If you have feedback, especially constructive criticism, please post it in the comments below.
Also note that these suggestions are based on the information in the Herocraft wiki and my personal experiences with both online and offline RPG's in the past (way too many to list here, but if anyone's curious, I could try listing them), as well as a couple MOBA's (DotA, DotA2, LoL, and HoN). The only PvP and PvE I've encountered on this server so far are a group of three Warriors forcing me out of my dirt hut about 30 minutes into playing on the server and a lonesome Ranger jumping me with a Diamond Axe after I barely survived an encounter with two Creepers (don't know why he wanted the stone tools I was carrying at the time, but oh well), so I'm probably the last person who knows anything about how the class balance is in actuality versus on paper.

If this ends up becoming popular (and possibly implemented by Kaizo and Team? One can only dream...), I could also move onto noncombat classes.

 

[Kainzo]

You may not realize it but all of this was self-coded. Including the skills, we can't simply 'throw in' some of the skills you're touting - some are even impossible. There are virtually no hooks for the wolf and we wont be allowing wolf-summon/ally due to the events being mass-stupid.

If you know how to program/code java - I urge you to try and write some of these skills - if then we'll talk about implementing changes

 

[Steamed]

How is samurai more rogue like than warrior-like? Samurai's were usually not sneaky and they wore plated armor. They did not wear leather armor nor were they stealthy when they existed.

 

[Sleaker]

As Kainzo suggested, a lot of this is not possible/improbable. On top of that if we were to make sweeping class alterations/removals we'd end up most likely doing a complete overhaul of our primary class system that allowed for a much more customized approach.

I'm not sure where you get the '12 is the magic number' - I've done a lot of gaming and So far I've liked the EQ2 class selection much more than any other game and there are 24. On top of this lets look at other games:

WoW doesn't really have 9 classes it has a seperate 'class' for each specialization that you can go giving a much different play-style even in your own class (they'll have 10 + much more customization in Pandara).

Rift is even more of a walk away from WoW, it has 36 base classes, in which a lot of overlap exists.

Titan Quest (I'm quite fond of) used mixed specs you choose any 2 of 9 - giving a lot of possible combinations and skill selections (again much more than 12).

Everquest - 16 total classes, again higher than 12 and very popular.

MoBAs have a huge variety and differentiation between their characters, 50+ usually?

I'm sure you can see where this is going. Picking out an arbitrary number and saying it's the magical 'sweet spot' doesn't exactly make any sense. We have, and do adjust classes to make them more unique, on top of giving them all different mechanics.

 

[jbird112233]

I feel as if all of the classes are fine how it is.

 

[TheEthanEffect]

I tried to read this. I really did. I got part way through rogue when I realized that the poster not only hadn't thought through a lot of these changes, he hadn't even read the wiki in more than a few cases.

True suggestions should be thoroughly thought out and documented, and approached from multiple angles. This hits me as nothing more than a rogue trying to supersize his class and add in multiple "I think this is cool and I want my class to have it!" factors, then trying to balance the rest of the module around that.

And, as Kainzo said, that's all BEFORE you go into trying to implement it.

 

[Kainzo]

I'm glad to get active suggestions even if they aren't taken word for word.

@TheEthanEffect - I'm still trying to read through yours, its a mudslide of words

 

[c12095]

@Sleaker

Just curious, I remember saying awhile ago attack speeds might be able to be changed. Was that ever made possible?

 

[Sleaker]

@Sleaker

Just curious, I remember saying awhile ago attack speeds might be able to be changed. Was that ever made possible?

You can change swing speed, but it doesn't really matter, mobs/players can still only take damage once every half second and you can click faster than that.

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

@TheEthanEffect: what you don't realize is that this list is actually quite thought out. Balancing is accounted for, and in most cases, skills are barely any different from old ones. And honestly, I thought I was actually supersizing the Beguiler of all classes, due to the huge bump in combat efficiency, though you're right, Rangers still feel too overpowered even with the nerfs on many of their skills. I'll look into it.

@jbird112233: That doesn't mean the class system can't be improved.

@Steamed: I'm talking gameplay-wise, not IRL. Of course Samurais weren't stealth at all, they were pretty much the Japanese version of a Knight. Gameplay-wise, however, they have the least health of all warrior subclasses, have the greatest armor restrictions of all the warrior subclasses, but also have deal as much damage as a Ninja or an old Rogue with their Diamond Sword.

@Kainzo: I think you misunderstand what I mean by my wolf skills: they would work the same was as before, but the upper limit on the maximum amount of tamed wolves is increased for Druids at certain levels. I also made sure the effects I added are based off of effects that already exist, either in base Minecraft, Herocraft, or another mod.

@Sleaker: On "12 is a magic number for variety": WoW had 9 classes originally, but the fact that they're on their 11th proves that there is still some freedom left in the system without making it overly complex. EQ2 has 24 classes on paper, but in actuality, it's more like 12 (13 with Beastlord) classes role-wise, with slight differences between the second subclasses. For Rift, I actually dislike it for having too many classes (and yes, I did actually play Rift, I'm not just basing this off of wiki information). Sure it has 336 (4*(9C3)) classes on paper , but because many of the classes overlap, I feel that its class system is needlessly redundant (like the Pyromaniac, Elementalist, and whatever the storm DD one was called, Stormcaller I think). Though I haven't done this myself, I'm quite confident that if you were to boil down Rift's "souls" to their elements, you'd end up with about 12 archetypes, with individual souls being slight variations on those archetypes. Titan Quest's 9 "masteries" are another case: taking a look at the game's wiki and classes (mastery combinations), some of the mastery combinations within a single mastery fall into the same archetype, while others don't. Once again however, I'm pretty confident that if the game is as well designed as you say it is after a bit of research, one could boil the classes down to about a dozen archetypes. However, one should not restrict oneself to RPG's when making design decisions balancing the complexity of a system with how easy it is to understand. For example, take a look at any RTS (World in Conflict, Dawn of War series, Warcraft series, Starcraft series, heck, even the Age of Empires series) and you'll find that each individual side has about 12 or 13 different archetypes (in the Dawn of War series and the Crafts, these are concrete units, while the case isn't as clear with WiC and the AoE series).
As for MOBA's, they're mainly for ideas on what skills to implement in this case rather than the magic 12 number, though in case you don't know, the reason DotA and HoN are so daunting for new players is because there are so many heroes/champions. There are reasons why LoL only ever has 10 heroes/champions free each week, and it isn't purely because they want people to spend money.

An alternative reason for choosing 12 classes in total is because I feel the Samurai and the Wizard are currently pretty much duplicates role-wise of other classes, and having three subclasses for one class while four for another is bad for balance. I also feel that removing existing classes is a much better solution than replacing the Samurai and the Wizard with something different, as the Bard would still be a bit weird being a sort of quarter Rogue, quarter Geomancer, half Cleric, especially with it being among the Rogue subclasses.

As for programming difficulties, I'm not that skilled of a Java programmer, but here is how I imagine the changed skills could be implemented. Of course, I'm sure these aren't the best ways to implement them, I'm just giving a rough idea that, contrary to what was said, the new and reworked skills can be implemented. The only skill that I cannot imagine precisely how it would be implemented is Flashbang, though it can always be replaced with, say, a weaker version of the Samurai's Inversion (Rogues are supposed to be good versus Casters, no?) in the case I cannot find a creative alternative for the skill:
- Skills that level up: when the skill is used, the server checks what level the player is and behaves accordingly.
- Smite + Zombify: I'm sure there's an "Undead" flag built into the game, otherwise Become Death wouldn't be possible either. As for integration with Zombify, whenever Smite is used on a player, the server checks to see if target has the Zombify debuff (if there's no other way, all players have a counter that defaults to 0, but is set to 10 when Zombify is used on them. Counter is reduced by 1 each second, if Counter is not 0 when Smite is cast, target takes even more damage).
- Pain Mirror: when the Dreadknight is hit while the skill is active, an AoE spell is activated, with its center being on the Dreadknight and its damage being a variable calculated by taking the incoming damage amount and multiplying it by a constant.
- Holy Shield: counter on flag with two listeners: one for if the Paladin is blocking, the other one for checking if the duration counter is greater than 0.5. While the blocking listener is true, counter increases by 0.5 every 0.5 seconds, but the counter resets to 0 the moment the Paladin stops blocking.
- Become Death on Dreadknight: when Taunt is activated while under Become Death, the invisibility to undead is removed until the Dreadknight does not take any damage for a period of time. If Taunt is activated while under Become Death, all undead affected by Taunt have their damage reduced by 100%.
- Battle Trance: Dragoon gets assigned a counter, counter is reduced by 1 each time a melee attack's damage is reduced. If Counter is at 0, damage is no longer reduced. Counter is set to 0 if duration ends.
- All "Shot" skills: though AFAIK, Ice Arrow already shows that this can be done, here's my idea. For each "shot" skill, Ranger has a counter on shotskills.xxx.isActive. Using the corresponding skill sets the counter to 1, while setting all other counters of the type that are on 1 (so only one shot effect works at a time) to 0. When an arrow is shot, the skill's counter is set to 2 when an arrow is used, 3 if there's already a counter on 2, so on and so forth. Depending on if the skill is an "on next arrow" or "on next arrow that hits" skill, the counter will either reset to 0 or go back to 1 if no damage is dealt with the shot arrow. If the arrow hits, the skill with the counter of 2 activates on the target, the counter of that skill is set to 0, and all other counters that are greater than 2 have their values reduced by 1.
- Power Shot: as stated in my original post, problematic, but Bursting Shot isn't. Just cast the old "Barrage" skill on the hit target, the same was as Ice Arrow was implemented before.
- "Entangle" debuffs: target gets 5 cumulative -20% movement speed debuffs with a duration of 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 seconds. Also possible with 10 cumulative -10% movement speed debuffs with a duration of 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, and 6... you get the idea.
- Ambush: If this can't be based off of the existing Tumble skill, then Ninjas get a counter that increases when the Ninja falls a number of blocks (probably needs a listener to check when y coordinate changes, then needs to make sure Ninja is actually falling instead of climbing down a ladder or a flight of stairs), but resets a short duration after the Ninja stops falling or after the Ninja deals damage to a target. Damage dealt to a target is increased depending on the value of said counter.
- Pickpocket: transfers a small amount of funds from one player to another, simple as that.
- Dispel: pretty much the same as the old Purge, but removes all debuffs instead of just 1. I guess you could say it removes 64 debuffs, as I highly doubt anyone will have more than 64 debuffs on them at the same time.
- RegenMana: incredibly long duration +1 mana per tick on all party members if there's no other way.
- Sonic Boom: small "Force Push" effect, followed by a medium sized "Force Pull" effect, followed by a small "Force Push" effect.
- Nature's Friend: works the exact same way as Ranger's Wolf skill, but levels so max Wolf cap is increased by 1 each time. Because base Minecraft has no limit AFAIK to how many wolves you can have, I doubt there would be any problems.
- Poison Aura: besides lowering taken damage, whenever Druid or party member is hit, damage dealer has poison effect applied (duration is reset if poison is already applied). In addition, all players have a counter that defaults to 0 but is increased by 1 each time they hit someone with Poison Aura. Each player also has a listener that checks the value of the counter and slows their movement speed accordingly. After 4 seconds, the counter is set to 0 (this can be solved by having counter set to 4 whenever they hit someone coupled with a listener that resets the slow counter if the duration counter equals 0).
- Sacrifice: same mechanic as Bard's Wisdom, but costs health as well.
- Siphoning Aura: all players have a counter that defaults to 0, decreases by 1 each second when not 0, and is set to however many seconds the aura lasts. This is coupled with a listener that checks on each attack whether the duration counter equals 0; if it is not, the user is healed an amount based on the damage he deals (calculated from a table of how much damage each weapon does, as well as a modifier table depending on what buffs the player has if possible).
- Soul Mark: all players have a counter that defaults to 0, decreases by 1 each second when not 0, and is set to however many seconds the skill lasts. This is coupled with a listener that checks every time damage is taken whether the duration counter equals 0; if not, the player takes additional damage based on the amount of damage ordinarily taken. If the last part is nigh impossible to program in, a simple flat damage dealt whenever player takes damage is also a viable option IMO.
- Leap: Ninja gets flag and a listener. Listener checks flag on each jump. If flag is set to true, jump height is increased by 3x and flag is set to false.
- Curse: all players have a counter that defaults to 0, decreases by 1 each second when not 0, and is set to however many seconds the skill lasts. This is coupled with a listener that checks on each skill use whether the duration counter equals 0; if not, the skill's MP is deducted and CD activated, but skill itself does not activate. The listener also makes sure the skill used is not one of the exceptions (Dispel, for example) with a simple conditional.
- Grapple: in retrospect, the video demonstration would be very hard to implement. However, here's an alternative: when the skill is used, it acts like a normal "shot" skill (ie. with a counter and everything). When the arrow hits, however, the server checks the arrow entity coordinates, as in where the arrow hit something or someone (if this cannot be implemented, the skill is changed to no longer be a "shot" skill, but a regular one with a maximum range). The server then checks whether those coordinates have a higher y value than the player's current coordinates (as I think this is more realistic than a Just Cause 2 style grapple); if so, the player is unaffected by gravity, cannot move, and is slowly pushed towards the hit coordinates until the player encounters an object (player can still look around and attack), whether it's an obstacle in the way or the actual block that got hit. The server then checks if there is enough room above the object for the player (both spaces above the obstacle do not contain blocks); if so, the player is teleported to the top of that block, but if not, the player is simply left to fall to his or her possible doom.
- Conditioning: blocking speed can be implemented with a simple flag-listener combination or a skill with a duration of 0.1 seconds, a mana cost of 0, and a CD of 0 that casts whenever the player is blocking. The armor mitigation confounds me though, possibly replace it with a passive that reduces all damage taken when blocking, not just from the direction the player is blocking in.

As for existing players who already are Samurais, Bards, Wizards, or Disciples, here's my suggestion: the server saves their level in that class, and the next time they log on, they are reset to their base class (Warrior/Rogue/Caster/Healer). They also get a message saying their previous class was deleted and they must choose a new subclass, but their class level was saved and will be carried over to their new choice (so a level 55 Samurai will be a level 30 Warrior at the next log in, but upon choosing their new path of a Dragoon, they will become a level 55 Dragoon).

Oh, and thank you for the criticism, everyone, they are much more useful and enjoyable to respond to than simple nods of agreement or trolling comments.

 

[Kainzo]

There's also a good reason why WoW is dying these days They've lost 2-3 million subs in the last year.

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

There's also a good reason why WoW is dying these days They've lost 2-3 million subs in the last year.

True, they are currently losing subscribers, but 1) they are still at the top of the heap; and 2) if it was their class system at fault, they never would have gotten 11 million subscribers to begin with. I do admit, however, that the class abilities themselves are somewhat to blame for their subscriber loss, which is why none of the skills I suggested are purposefully related to skills in WoW (many of the skills in the Rogue subclasses, for example, are inspired by Bioware RPG's and the Thief series, while the Beguiler is modeled somewhat after Dawn of War 2's Farseer and Dragon Age Origins' Arcane Warrior and the Dreadknight is modelled mainly after Dragon Age Origins' Reaver and DotA's Axe).

 

[TheEthanEffect]

@TheEthanEffect: what you don't realize is that this list is actually quite thought out.

No, it's not. Maybe it was quite thought out in terms of, "Hey! This sounds cool! Hey this was in a Zelda game!" Your proposed changes are nothing more than cosmetic quite a few cases, and many would actually require a substantial rewrite. Making Samurai rogues and Ninjas "mini-Dragoons," getting rid of wizards but then renaming Geomancers to wizards again, and having an "ideal number" of classes betrays the shallow thought put into your suggestions. Quite frankly it sounds more like something a rogue would think up while jer... err, "engaging in activities with the intention of self stimulation" to glorify and glamorize his preferred classes than something to actually merit the module.

There's also a good reason why WoW is dying these days They've lost 2-3 million subs in the last year.

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

No, it's not. Maybe it was quite thought out in terms of, "Hey! This sounds cool! Hey this was in a Zelda game!" Your proposed changes are nothing more than cosmetic quite a few cases, and many would actually require a substantial rewrite. Making Samurai rogues and Ninjas "mini-Dragoons," getting rid of wizards but then renaming Geomancers to wizards again, and having an "ideal number" of classes betrays the shallow thought put into your suggestions.

Grapple is not Hookshot. Have you ever played Thief 1, Thief 2, Dark Messiah, The Dark Project, or the Thieves Arsenal mod in Oblivion? Hookshot allows you to zip across gaps and down holes with ease, as well as hit enemies from afar. Grapples (or should I call them Rope Arrows so you can better understand my thinking?) are for climbing up places, as well as a possible quick getaway. The reason my suggested Grapple skill might appear so similar to the Hookshot because I know something like this would be nigh impossible to program in (though if I'm wrong, I'll take that version of the Grapple/Rope Arrow over the one I suggested anyday).

You're right on cosmetic changes though: sloppy writing and inaccurate names ("Unheal" for one, but also "Bite" when PC's are not animals, and spelling Siphon with a "y") and descriptions (for example, siphoning means taking something away from someone else for personal use, not transferring something of yours to someone else; "Blood Bridge", whose name I took from Planescape: Torment, is more accurate in this regard) are a pet peeve of mine, as well as seemingly pointless irregularities (such as how the current Fire Arrow and Ice Arrow work differently even though they are similar in both name and function) within a skillset.

What you seem to fail to realize is the goal of my changes is to make each class as unique as possible. Note, for example, how I eliminated or changes a lot of spells that are shared between classes (Pray and Soulbond, for example). This is also the reason why I want the Ninja changed so much, as well as why I want to remove your precious Samurai. Sure my Ninja is similar to the Dragoon in the way that jumping is important for both of them, but that's pretty much where the similarities end; it's definitely an improvement over the subclass' current state as a 75% clone of the Rogue.

And this is why I want the Geomancer renamed to Wizard. And this. Oh, and this as well. Geomancy = Divination, not control of elements. Just because Japanese developers translated it wrong in various games doesn't mean you should follow suit.

I'm guessing your character is a Samurai, based on how much you're concentrating on how I called them a Rogue-like class role-wise. That would also explain why you're trying to goad me with how much emphasis you're placing on my Ranger changes. So I'll give you a challenge: if you can name one unique thing about that class in its current form other than the fact that it's a Warrior subclass adept at killing Casters, (something that should not happen, as, IIRC, Kainzo once summarized the desired PvP system of Herocraft in in-game chat as "Warriors kill Rogues, Rogues kill Casters, Casters kill Warriors, Healers are the catalyst"), I'll give you a virtual cookie. They have 4 "unique" skills tied to their subclass, one of which is a simple DoT, the second one is a simple blocking skill (though because its mechanics are slightly different, I transferred a similar skill to the Dragoon, whose lack of defensive skills made him stand out amongst the other Warrior subclasses), the third one is also available to the Dragoon, and only the fourth adds anything special to the class, but whose effects align the Samurai more with the Caster-killing Rogues than the Rogue-killing Warriors.

PS. My personal favorite class is still the Beguiler, as I always loved CC classes, but because I suspect I will never join a group and because Beguilers only really useful in parties (barely any offensive potential, defensive potential also limited), I went with my second choice, the Ranger (who's pretty much made to be played alone). The Druid almost won me though, if it weren't for his lack of offensive skills, something I addressed with the Wolf Taming skill.

 

[Carlover1234]

I do think Druids should get a taming skill, since there natural oriented. Like maybe Druids can summon cats(if they come out). Because druids are good but I think they need 1 or 2 new skills. I even made a thread about Druids that suggested 3 new skills. But I think your ideas were too much and the current classes are amazing and I didn't get most of your changes.

 

[TheEthanEffect]

Actually, I play as a Dragoon 100% of the time. I hate Samurai, and even I can see this is terrible. Your whole post is terrible. The warrior section alone, to anyone who can make it halfway through a Curious George book, shows easily that your goal wasn't to increase the strength and versatility of the other warrior classes, and then remove Samurai as a result. Rather, your train of thought was obviously "Alright. Let's get rid of Samurai so <insert ridiculous reason that probably relates to Ninjas being the only cool "Asian" class>. To justify that, hmm... I'll just toss the skills from Samurai into the various other classes to make it look like I'm trying to go for balance too." Your attempts to obfuscate your motivation, however, fail when your proposed changes to Dreadknight are reviewed. Increasing the damage dealing capability of a class that is pretty much considered unanimously as the most overpowered in the module shows you either didn't do ANY research whatsoever, you have a very poor ability to take all factors into account when proposing a change, or you simply harbor an intent to try the Dreadknight class and want it to be as powerful as possible.

My point is already proven, but I'll go further. Let's take your proposed rope arrows. Not only does that give a class a HUGE boost to mobility, changing its capabilities entirely (again, likely evidence that you have given this little to no thought other than cool factor), it shows you have payed zero attention to the massive storm that erupted over Jump.

I could slaughter, slice, and dice your post and logic into pieces too small for a CSI team to put back together, but the sheer volume of terrible fallacies would make that take hours that I only spend on proper contributions to a module, especially since 90% of your argument is based around "It was cool in this game!" or "This is how it's supposed to be!"

As for your challenge, I shall indulge it. As you indicated, warriors kill rogues. Each warrior class has a different way of doing so, all of which revolve of using high defense to go up against classes that kick out a lot of damage but have relatively weak defenses themselves. The warrior's defenses must be good enough to endure the rogue's damage output, so he can stay in combat with the rogue long enough for his lesser damage to overcome the rogue. Paladins do this by having incredibly high defense to make the fight last. Dreadknights trade some of that defensive power to bring in offensive supplements, so they don't last quite as long, but deal more damage to close the gap. Dragoons are (supposed to be) mobile, and use Jump to get in and out of melee range, dealing their damage and then falling back to regenerate, or using Jump at point blank range to confuse their target.

Samurai take the exact opposite approach from Paladins. Their standard defenses are the lightest of the warriors, but they do the most damage. The goal of the Samurai is to bring the rogue down faster, as a rogue's high damage will impact the Samurai much more than the Paladin or Dreadknight. The best defense is a good offense. Should things go sour, the Samurai has Blade Grasp, which is arguably the most effective defensive skill in the game. The Samurai also serves as a good flank protector for casters, as enemy rogues will rush the caster, and they need to be brought down quickly before the caster is knocked out of the fight.

I prefer chocolate chip.

 

[Predator2010]

You may not realize it but all of this was self-coded. Including the skills, we can't simply 'throw in' some of the skills you're touting - some are even impossible. There are virtually no hooks for the wolf and we wont be allowing wolf-summon/ally due to the events being mass-stupid.

If you know how to program/code java - I urge you to try and write some of these skills - if then we'll talk about implementing changes

Kainzo does a good job, its coded well and these are mass developments that really arnt neccessary,
sorry but -support.

 

[Carlover1234]

Will cats(if they come) be able to be programmed like wolfs?

 

[Dazureus]

Grapple is not Hookshot. Have you ever played Thief 1, Thief 2, Dark Messiah, The Dark Project, or the Thieves Arsenal mod in Oblivion? Hookshot allows you to zip across gaps and down holes with ease, as well as hit enemies from afar. Grapples (or should I call them Rope Arrows so you can better understand my thinking?) are for climbing up places, as well as a possible quick getaway. The reason my suggested Grapple skill might appear so similar to the Hookshot because I know something like this would be nigh impossible to program in (though if I'm wrong, I'll take that version of the Grapple/Rope Arrow over the one I suggested anyday).

Grapple is Hookshot. That doesn't make it a bad idea. No reason to be defensive.

You're right on cosmetic changes though: sloppy writing and inaccurate names ("Unheal" for one, but also "Bite" when PC's are not animals, and spelling Siphon with a "y") and descriptions (for example, siphoning means taking something away from someone else for personal use, not transferring something of yours to someone else; "Blood Bridge", whose name I took from Planescape: Torment, is more accurate in this regard) are a pet peeve of mine, as well as seemingly pointless irregularities (such as how the current Fire Arrow and Ice Arrow work differently even though they are similar in both name and function) within a skillset.

I'm all for altering descriptions and skill names. Lore is Lore but it doesn't have to be written on tablets.

What you seem to fail to realize is the goal of my changes is to make each class as unique as possible. Note, for example, how I eliminated or changes a lot of spells that are shared between classes (Pray and Soulbond, for example). This is also the reason why I want the Ninja changed so much, as well as why I want to remove your precious Samurai. Sure my Ninja is similar to the Dragoon in the way that jumping is important for both of them, but that's pretty much where the similarities end; it's definitely an improvement over the subclass' current state as a 75% clone of the Rogue

Differentiation between Ninja and Thief? Yes please.

Also, good luck actually getting precious Samurai removed. Even the good suggestion threads only tend to turn out a couple of alterations at a time.

And this is why I want the Geomancer renamed to Wizard. And this. Oh, and this as well. Geomancy = Divination, not control of elements. Just because Japanese developers translated it wrong in various games doesn't mean you should follow suit.

Dragoons should be mounted gunmen.
Ninja should be mostly fake.
Bards should be utterly useless.
Bloodmages should be dead.

Just because other people have built up video game-suitable archetypes around past professions doesn't mean we should follow suit. Have you noticed that bringing literalism into this isn't improving the experience at all?

I'm guessing your character is a Samurai, based on how much you're concentrating on how I called them a Rogue-like class role-wise. That would also explain why you're trying to goad me with how much emphasis you're placing on my Ranger changes. So I'll give you a challenge: if you can name one unique thing about that class in its current form other than the fact that it's a Warrior subclass adept at killing Casters, (something that should not happen, as, IIRC, Kainzo once summarized the desired PvP system of Herocraft in in-game chat as "Warriors kill Rogues, Rogues kill Casters, Casters kill Warriors, Healers are the catalyst"), I'll give you a virtual cookie. They have 4 "unique" skills tied to their subclass, one of which is a simple DoT, the second one is a simple blocking skill (though because its mechanics are slightly different, I transferred a similar skill to the Dragoon, whose lack of defensive skills made him stand out amongst the other Warrior subclasses), the third one is also available to the Dragoon, and only the fourth adds anything special to the class, but whose effects align the Samurai more with the Caster-killing Rogues than the Rogue-killing Warriors.

Your analysis is incorrect, I believe. Dragoons are more anti-Caster than Samurai ever were. It's also okay that we have an anti-Caster Warrior because we can subvert the pattern sometimes and it won't ruin anything.

PS. My personal favorite class is still the Beguiler, as I always loved CC classes, but because I suspect I will never join a group and because Beguilers only really useful in parties (barely any offensive potential, defensive potential also limited), I went with my second choice, the Ranger (who's pretty much made to be played alone). The Druid almost won me though, if it weren't for his lack of offensive skills, something I addressed with the Wolf Taming skill.

Beguilers should spread misinformation.

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

[...] Rather, your train of thought was obviously "Alright. Let's get rid of Samurai so <insert ridiculous reason that probably relates to Ninjas being the only cool "Asian" class>. To justify that, hmm... I'll just toss the skills from Samurai into the various other classes to make it look like I'm trying to go for balance too."

Nope. My train of thought was more like "Hmm, Bard and Samurai seem pretty weird in their subclasses, and Ninja and Rogue are pretty much the same subclass. Bloodmage looks like a Cleric that uses HP instead of a unique class. Ranger seems too overpowered, Druid seems useless (especially Forage, since it's already implemented in Professions), and Wizard seems kind of underpowered as well. Beguiler looks awesome, but his skills are kind of meh on their own. Disciple looks awesome, but he seems like a glorified combination of the Paladin and Cleric. And why call an Elementalist a 'Geomancer'?"

Your attempts to obfuscate your motivation, however, fail when your proposed changes to Dreadknight are reviewed. Increasing the damage dealing capability of a class that is pretty much considered unanimously as the most overpowered in the module [...]

Numbers can be tweaked. Also, I just did a search on Dreadknights in the forums, and more than 75% of the threads are about ways to buff the subclass. I didn't consider looking at the general opinion of subclasses, as it can be very misleading sometimes (the only exception being "Thieves don't feel like thieves"), but now that I have for the Dreadknight, I fail to see how the subclass is "considered unanimously as the most overpowered".

Let's take your proposed rope arrows. Not only does that give a class a HUGE boost to mobility, changing its capabilities entirely (again, likely evidence that you have given this little to no thought other than cool factor), it shows you have payed zero attention to the massive storm that erupted over Jump.

Wait, wait, wait. The description of Rogue class is, AFAIK, "trading defense for offense, survivability for mobility". Have you considered the fact that giving the class a boost to mobility was my goal the entire time? As for the "massive storm that erupted over Jump", a search in the forums revealed that the "massive storm" was not because Jump is overpowered, but because it's a "noob skill". Tumble is removed from the Thief in case you read over that part, so if you shoot the Grapple wrong, you not only can, but will fall to your death, removing the "noob" factor of the skill. Ninja's Leap is also a one-use, vertical jump, so IMO, the only "noob" way it can be used could be eliminated with a sufficiently long cooldown.

Samurai take the exact opposite approach from Paladins. Their standard defenses are the lightest of the warriors, but they do the most damage. The goal of the Samurai is to bring the rogue down faster, as a rogue's high damage will impact the Samurai much more than the Paladin or Dreadknight. The best defense is a good offense. Should things go sour, the Samurai has Blade Grasp, which is arguably the most effective defensive skill in the game. The Samurai also serves as a good flank protector for casters, as enemy rogues will rush the caster, and they need to be brought down quickly before the caster is knocked out of the fight.

You pretty much described a Rogue in a defensive role. Better offense for a works defense, with the main defense of the class coming from a skill. The Samurai is unique within Warrior subclasses, but once you take Rogue subclasses into consideration as well, it's a redundant subclass.
I'll give you a half a cookie though (you showed how he's unique within Warrior subclasses), here you go:

Kainzo does a good job, its coded well and these are mass developments that really arnt neccessary, sorry but -support.

Could you go into specifics on how the existing system is better than the one I proposed?

Grapple is Hookshot. That doesn't make it a bad idea. No reason to be defensive.

Then I guess the similarity was unintentional. It's just that, in my eyes, the use of the Hookshot in LoZ games is different from the use of Rope Arrows in the games I already mentioned.

Dragoons should be mounted gunmen.
Ninja should be mostly fake.
Bards should be utterly useless.
Bloodmages should be dead.

Just because other people have built up video game-suitable archetypes around past professions doesn't mean we should follow suit. Have you noticed that bringing literalism into this isn't improving the experience at all?
[...]
Beguilers should spread misinformation.

You're right, Beguilers and Dragoons should also be renamed. Perhaps "Metamage", and "Landsknecht" or "Glaive-Wielder"? "Bloodmage" is valid despite how stupid it sounds to some, as the subclass is pretty much a mage (spellcaster) who uses and/or specializes in blood and/or life energy. Bards, if not removed, are still based on their rough definition of an entertainer and spy (their auras and group abilities are "songs", while their Rogue skills are attributed to the "spy" part of their classification). Ninjas, though definitely not based on their real-life counterparts of honorless Japanese mercenary spies, still resemble certain legends where they were the ultimate assassins. BTW, you forgot how Disciples would be monks in robes, but calling the class a "Monk" or "Shaolin" could be even more inaccurate. The Geomancer is an entirely different ordeal, as the name doesn't even remotely resemble the class. Calling an Elementalist or a Wizard a Geomancer is like calling an Apothecary an Alchemist, or a Voodoo Priest a Demonologist, or a Pikeman a Dragoon... oh, wait...

Your analysis is incorrect, I believe. Dragoons are more anti-Caster than Samurai ever were. It's also okay that we have an anti-Caster Warrior because we can subvert the pattern sometimes and it won't ruin anything.

If we consider the Dragoon an anti-Caster, at least the subclass is an anti-caster in a different way than Rogue subclasses, as Dragoons don't take out Casters by simply wacking on them with their weapons. My problem with the Samurai isn't just that it's an anti-Caster subclass, but that it is an anti-Caster in ways that are already implemented in at least two other subclasses (Ninja and Thief).