Suggestion Changes to Ninja

[Nevinryal]

Ninja has some great abilities for multiple engagements but considering the amount of damage it puts out and it's mobility in a fight, I think one thing that definitely needs to be adjusted is Backflip.


If you compare the costs of Backflip to the costs of a similar move from the Dragoon class namely Jump, you will see that even though Dragoon lost it's main signature move not too long ago (Super Jump) and was reduced down to just Jump which is a useful moved especially considering (this is the Dragoon we are talking about) you will see some notable differences.


While both moves take 300 Stamina to run and they both get to cover a good distance the equalities end there.


From there on out the Ninja enjoys the benefits of far more bonuses like, a lower cool down (only 6 seconds to the Dragoon's 7.5) but then you also get to do damage whilst backflipping that the Dragoon simply does not get to do even though he pays the same in Stamina and has to wait even longer to use it.


This ability for Ninja shouldn't be any better to use than it already is without costing more to cover the extra damage/attack they get to use and to balance it should consider an extra 100-200 energy to at least cover the damage dealt. So I propose an increase in Stamina usage from the 300 Stamina for the disengage and anywhere from 100-200 Stamina for the (Currently) Free attack.


The Dragoon has a Piercing Strike attack that does only HALF/50% damage atm and even then, still costs 200 Stamina to make that half attack damage move happen.


I think that either changing the Ninja to reflect this free damage would be reasonable or to lower the cost of Piercing Strike down from 200 to perhaps 150 and or reducing Jump from 7.5 to 6 seconds or a bit of both in light of the lack of Super Jump and nothing as of yet to replace it with.

 

[malikdanab]

So...are we changing ninja or dragoon here?

 

[Nevinryal]

Ninja preferably to an increase in Stamina cost to reflect all the extra's it's getting for free atm.

If that is unreasonable than modify Dragoon to reflect some subtle changes to correspond with Ninja if Ninja cannot be changed.

 

[malikdanab]

Ninja preferably to an increase in Stamina cost to reflect all the extra's it's getting for free atm.

If that is unreasonable than modify Dragoon to reflect some subtle changes to correspond with Ninja if Ninja cannot be changed.

You don't balance around other class types. Rogues are supposed to be more mobile than warriors. And you still haven't answered my question, do you want to buff dragoon or nerf ninja? You can't just say "Well that class has THIS" and want that class nerfed or your class buffed.

 

[Nevinryal]

It just seems to me that the changes to Ninja reflected someone who really used/enjoyed Ninja a bit and went just a tad into making it easier to use it's abilities than some other less "exciting" classes. Rogue or not, Dragoon is the Skyknight, not the Ninja. If you are going to pass out a free pass on Mobility moves and throw in EXTRA DAMAGE and REDUCED cast time that you should make sure that the costs match the benefit's.

This tiny change, is not that unreasonable and there are multiple ways to mitigate it available.

 

[malikdanab]

It just seems to me that the changes to Ninja reflected someone who really used/enjoyed Ninja a bit and went just a tad into making it easier to use it's abilities than some other less "exciting" classes. Rogue or not, Dragoon is the Skyknight, not the Ninja. If you are going to pass out a free pass on Mobility moves and throw in EXTRA DAMAGE and REDUCED cast time that you should make sure that the costs match the benefit's.

This tiny change, is not that unreasonable and there are multiple ways to mitigate it available.

So you want to buff your class dragoon and nerf ninja, because you are jealous...got it.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying your point is wrong, just that your way of balancing is incorrect.

 

[MichaelRL]

The tankyness of goon makes up for the Dmg of ninjas backflip.

 

[Nevinryal]

If that is not enough to persuade then consider this. Ninja enjoys a wider range of abilities (18) While Dragoon gets only (13) total. This is not a "make mine better" conversation but merely an observation that is pretty obvious if you just look at the comparison.

I don't know how you got to take this conversation so personal but please, don't be childish about it making direct statements towards a player in regards to "jealousy". There's no need for that.

The class simply enjoys quite a bit of versatility and extra abilities and reduced costs that many other classes simply would not get. I don't think it would hurt to try a few subtle changes.

They essentially get the Ranger's Track ability and Grappling Hook, and the Wizard's Bolt. I think they have it pretty good.

Also, with the changes in armor that the server has recently undergone Ninja does quite a bit more damage now then ever before, one way or another some meaningful changes will need to take place like it or no.

 

[Nevinryal]

That's definitely a good consideration Michael and I can see your point but with Prot 4 not really being a thing atm, the Dragoon's tankyness isn't quite what it used to be plus the damage output is just not impressive, not to say damage cannot be done. It by all means can, but again not going to blow anyone away or catch anyone off guard with things like Cleave or even Impale which currently spends much of it's time applying a short slow and not much of a "throwing up into the air" of anything ability.

 

[MichaelRL]

If that is not enough to persuade then consider this. Ninja enjoys a wider range of abilities (18) While Dragoon gets only (13) total. This is not a "make mine better" conversation but merely an observation that is pretty obvious if you just look at the comparison.

I don't know how you got to take this conversation so personal but please, don't be childish about it making direct statements towards a player in regards to "jealousy". There's no need for that.

The class simply enjoys quite a bit of versatility and extra abilities and reduced costs that many other classes simply would not get. I don't think it would hurt to try a few subtle changes.

They essentially get the Ranger's Track ability and Grappling Hook, and the Wizard's Bolt. I think they have it pretty good.

Also, with the changes in armor that the server has recently undergone Ninja does quite a bit more damage now then ever before, one way or another some meaningful changes will need to take place like it or no.

See they get all those cool skills and such. But still can't kill any warrior class that is good at left clicking. That is of course if they don't carry a lot of flint on them.

 

[malikdanab]

Not taking it personal. HC classes are so far from balanced. There isn't even a case of ninja or goon, it's a problem with ALL classes. There isn't a standardized amount of skills. Classes within their own group aren't even balanced around each other. There is no guidelines for balance. I don't know if ninja should lose skills, goon gains skills, both, or neither.

 

[Egorh]

Comparing Dragoon and Ninja simply because they have a similar mobility skill is pretty 'stupid'. It is like comparing Pyro's DragonsBreath with Necro's Bonespear. They are similar skills but they are not balanced that way because you need to look at the rest of the class' kit.

Sneak, fade, garrote, deathmark and grapplinghook are rarely used in combat (Sneak and Deathmark can be used before hand)
Shurikens are only going to be a game changer if you keep a large amount of flint on you
Escapeartist is helpful but very situational + has a 2 minute CD so it is only used once a fight
Blitz-It has a very short range, if you can use blitz you would be better off melee'ing the target

Jump is much better for mobility purposes due to the fact that you do not need to turn around. Also, backflip is a lot easier to 'mess up'. Of course it is easy to backflip away from an enemy to build some distance but you will rarely be able to backflip on a 1 wide bridge. Often enough you go partially to the side.

Your argument is pretty much that since Ninja has a more combat oriented mobility skill so Dragoon should be buffed.

Personally I think that Dragoon needs a slight buff (but not to Jump) and Ninja needs a rework

 

[Ahrall]

Everything that True said and more.

The argument that ninja "has more skills" is nothing to balance around. Ranger only really uses 8 skills in combat and it's a fine class. I agree that ninja does need some work, and personally I would love to see the shurikens removed from backflip (I've combat tagged myself a lot while eating because of this) but does the skill need a "nerf" no.

In addition, just because there isn't as much Prot 4 in the game doesn't make dragoons less tanky than ninjas. Goons still have 20 more base equipment weight than ninjas equaling out to an average of 60-70% damage reduction (depending on stamina) compared to a ninja's average 30-40% while they enjoy a higher base health of 856 as opposed to a ninja's 784

In short comparing Class A to Class B isn't a viable way to balance. Instead look to "how does class A fare against class B" in which I can tell you that a ninja will probably never beat a decent goon.

 

[Ice_Burner]

True just said everything that's flawed with this suggestion

But Ninja is a burst/rogue class and Dragoon is a warrior/rogue hybrid of a sorts. Personally Dragoon is fine as it is, has plenty of CC to take care of rogues as well.

I'm assuming that you were killed by a Ninja and now you're butthurt about it right? Well, either the Ninja was good or you're just bad. Sorry man but life is hard.

 

[Nevinryal]

Again, meaningful engagement in the conversation is welcomed. True makes some good point and in the end I agree that a slight buff to Dragoon is needed and Ninja needs a rework is just spot on. As for the childish insults, again not needed.

 

[Nevinryal]

Also, is a stamina increase in one skill like backflip that is literally a 2 in one at reduced cooldown and stamina cost all that hard to do when Ninja gets to use Energize to convert mana to stamina on the fly. I mean, really?

 

[JupiterRome]

Umm Dragoon already has same base left click as ninja (I think) and Is tanker, what more do you want?

 

[ChazzaMaGazza]

You think goon needs more skills? Take a look at DreadKnight, at first the levels go 10 20 30.
My point is there is space for more skills,
Sorry to take it off topic

 

[RShooter2000]

If that is not enough to persuade then consider this. Ninja enjoys a wider range of abilities (18) While Dragoon gets only (13) total. This is not a "make mine better" conversation but merely an observation that is pretty obvious if you just look at the comparison.

I don't know how you got to take this conversation so personal but please, don't be childish about it making direct statements towards a player in regards to "jealousy". There's no need for that.

The class simply enjoys quite a bit of versatility and extra abilities and reduced costs that many other classes simply would not get. I don't think it would hurt to try a few subtle changes.

They essentially get the Ranger's Track ability and Grappling Hook, and the Wizard's Bolt. I think they have it pretty good.

Also, with the changes in armor that the server has recently undergone Ninja does quite a bit more damage now then ever before, one way or another some meaningful changes will need to take place like it or no.

Kind of funny though because Dragoon still beats Ninja, Ninja does decent damage but is still bad in team fights and bad against warriors, why would you want to nerf Ninja, I don't understand this. Comparing Dragoon to Ninja doesn't make any sense, ones warrior one is rogue, all warriors kill Ninja very easily. If you can't kill a Ninja as a dragoon maybe you should try a different class.