Braavos Leaves the Legion of Oblivion

[turkaderk]

While this exact situation has never come up in the past 4 maps I've played and there are no official Kingdom rules written anywhere... I do remember the loose rule back on Sanctum when we had many Kingdom's on a single map. That rule was exactly what's been discussed here. King has control over his/her towns. They can choose to kick a town out of the Kingdom or they can choose to pick a new Mayor if the current one isn't up to snuff.

Think of a Kingdom as one giant Town. The King is the Mayor, the other town Mayors are his/her SiC's. As a Mayor of a town can you demote your SiC and replace him/her? Yes. The same (in theory) should apply for a Kingdom.

Don't ask me to find this rule written somewhere on some 2 year old post because I would never find it, but I do remember this rule, so it must have been written somewhere at some point or otherwise I wouldn't recall it so vividly.

Thankyou for clearing this up for us Symbolite

 

[Dsawemd]

Mayors have always been granted near complete control of their towns. I believe the extreme control given is a result of the individual player's strong commitment to that town. This extreme control has several precedents, including the sale, destruction, and extreme alteration of towns. There are much fewer precedents regarding the limits of a King's power, but I believe that the ties between King and any individual town are much weaker, as they are less intimately tied to that single player.

Despite Left's protests, because Jonsoon's reason appears to be legitimately based on the quality of play within the kingdom, (not something like resource wars, personal grudges, etc.) I think that the initial schism of Braavos and LO has already happened. Staff would have to decide if this has far-reaching consequences for the "Kingdom" part of LO.

leftovers5 I think that if you want to keep Braavos, as a King you have the responsibility to do one of three things: 1. listen to their complaints and change your kingdom's methods (believe me Braavos has a different flavor than LO towns, it places emphasis on quality character and building competency) 2.lay siege to Braavos and attempt to force it into submission 3.And of course you could always just assimilate the players who want to remain part of LO into another kingdom town, and let the Braavos Schism carry on.

Jonsoon You obviously have responsibilities to players as well. I think it would help your cause to hear from as many of your town members as possible on this thread.

Speaking as one of the players who was motivated to leave because of the greater LO community, I support the right of a Mayor to protest a Kingdom's play experience by removing his town's support from that Kingdom.

TL : DR Mayors control their town. Jonsoon has a legitimate reason to want to leave. Left has several legitimate methods to stop him, but I do not think pouting and saying "No, you CAN'T" is one of them.

 

[MajorasMask]

They always have been, and this conversation is getting redundant.

Saying that it has ''always been this way'' doesn't make it a rule. It just makes it the ''done thing''.

The whole ''Who controls what in a kingdom'' topic has come up before, and it will come up again if we don't set down some clear rules. Given what Symbolite has said, and what is available on the wiki, we need rules regarding kingdoms. This is why I am asking if an admin could answer the following questions. If we can get some clear answers, then it will help if such an issue comes up again. Two questions which I have:

(Kainzo Danda Angyles (Because she may aswell be an admin))

''If a town wishes to leave an official kingdom (meaning, in its current state, it is on the kingdom regions); is it the town mayor who makes this decision, or the person who is leading the kingdom?''

''How much power does a king, of an official kingdom, have over the towns which are current members (meaning they are on the region) of the kingdom? For instance, are kings able to replace mayors, of member towns, without any resistance?''

Whatever the answers may be, it would be great to see them written down somewhere.

 

[Angyles]

Saying that it has ''always been this way'' doesn't make it a rule. It just makes it the ''done thing''.

The whole ''Who controls what in a kingdom'' topic has come up before, and it will come up again if we don't set down some clear rules. Given what Symbolite has said, and what is available on the wiki, we need rules regarding kingdoms. This is why I am asking if an admin could answer the following questions. If we can get some clear answers, then it will help if such an issue comes up again. Two questions which I have:

(Kainzo Danda Angyles (Because she may aswell be an admin))

''If a town wishes to leave an official kingdom (meaning, in its current state, it is on the kingdom regions); is it the town mayor who makes this decision, or the person who is leading the kingdom?''

''How much power does a king, of an official kingdom, have over the towns which are current members (meaning they are on the region) of the kingdom? For instance, are kings able to replace mayors, of member towns, without any resistance?''

Whatever the answers may be, it would be great to see them written down somewhere.

Hahaha throwing my name in there.

Alator - Throwing his name in there as he is also an Admin and handles this stuff.

I have my own opinion and has spoken to Danda about it, but nothing I say is "Official".

 

[Danda]

''If a town wishes to leave an official kingdom (meaning, in its current state, it is on the kingdom regions); is it the town mayor who makes this decision, or the person who is leading the kingdom?''

Personally I don't think it should be either of them. I think it should be up to a majority vote from the members of the town wanting to leave. That way you don't have a single person with all the power to force people to stay or destroy a kingdom because they got butt hurt (not saying this has happened in any situation).

 

[MajorasMask]

Personally I don't think it should be either of them. I think it should be up to a majority vote from the members of the town wanting to leave. That way you don't have a single person with all the power to force people to stay or destroy a kingdom because they got butt hurt (not saying this has happened in any situation).

Is this just your personal opinion, or should this be made a rule? I quite like this idea; that the citizens of the town would vote.

 

[Fjordsen]

Personally, I think the mayors should rule over their own towns. The mayor is the one who puts hours of work into making the town and keeping the town community together. The King is just a figure that has weak relation to most of the commoners in the Kingdoms towns (except his own). Removing Jonsoon as Mayor or forcing him to stay would only worsen the already bad reputation of LO.

 

[Danda]

Is this just your personal opinion, or should this be made a rule? I quite like this idea; that the citizens of the town would vote.

Personal opinion.

 

[Eldrylars]

Personally, I think the mayors should rule over their own towns. The mayor is the one who puts hours of work into making the town and keeping the town community together. The King is just a figure that has weak relation to most of the commoners in the Kingdoms towns (except his own). Removing Jonsoon as Mayor or forcing him to stay would only worsen the already bad reputation of LO.

I have a dozen members that have donated thousands of hours of combined time and endless amounts of supplies and resources into "my" town. Those people should have some recourse to protect "their" investment in "our" town if I decide to go against all of their wishes.

If this ruling comes back that the citizens of a town have no say in it's course then it's my opinion that we might as well start to call township citizens, township slaves. As that's all the citizens amount to with zero rights to their work.

I endorse my township to have me removed if I make bad decisions that they are all against and that I don't try to correct.

 

[macura]

Would LO lose kingsom status if braavos succeed? LO does not have any other town within the required range.

 

[leftovers5]

While this exact situation has never come up in the past 4 maps I've played and there are no official Kingdom rules written anywhere... I do remember the loose rule back on Sanctum when we had many Kingdom's on a single map. That rule was exactly what's been discussed here. King has control over his/her towns. They can choose to kick a town out of the Kingdom or they can choose to pick a new Mayor if the current one isn't up to snuff.

Think of a Kingdom as one giant Town. The King is the Mayor, the other town Mayors are his/her SiC's. As a Mayor of a town can you demote your SiC and replace him/her? Yes. The same (in theory) should apply for a Kingdom.

Don't ask me to find this rule written somewhere on some 2 year old post because I would never find it, but I do remember this rule, so it must have been written somewhere at some point or otherwise I wouldn't recall it so vividly.

Also, just because this is what I remember doesn't make it morally right to strip mayorship away from jonsoon. being a town mayor myself for the last 4 maps I can't even begin to think how I'd react to a king forcing me out of my own town! my creation, my baby! lol

This is completely how I see it too. And in no way do I plan on forcing Jonsoon out of Braavos. That would be a dick move.

 

[leftovers5]

Personally, I think the mayors should rule over their own towns. The mayor is the one who puts hours of work into making the town and keeping the town community together. The King is just a figure that has weak relation to most of the commoners in the Kingdoms towns (except his own). Removing Jonsoon as Mayor or forcing him to stay would only worsen the already bad reputation of LO.

I can't believe the ignorance of this post. Do you realize how much god damn effort the denizens of the LO have done over a period of months for this? And you think one person going against the popular decision has the right to terminate a project that has taken over a year for the LO to complete?

And the "bad reputation of LO"? That's complete slander. I can assure you that the council is doing its best to maintain decorum. People like you make me disappointed in public opinion.

Otherwise... when towns are incorporated into a kingdom, the king becomes the equivalent to the mayor. The "LO" is NOT a conglomeration of weak city states. It is a single kingdom, and I can assure you the majority of us view it as such.

 

[Diffuse]

And the "bad reputation of LO"? That's complete slander. I can assure you that the council is doing its best to maintain decorum. People like you make me disappointed in public opinion.

Your council's best is pretty damn bad then.

Also I don't know how many other people feel this way, but I have never actually considered braavos as part of LO. It says something that when we raid LO and we see someone it tends to be "hes LO" or "hes mineris being retarded" or "hes braavos" or "lol its has400, I love making 11 year old retards mad".

 

[Eldrylars]

.

I had a good laugh when I saw how much bait you just attached to your line.
Problem is, no ones biting and your lure is sinking to the bottom.

 

[MajorasMask]

I had a good laugh when I saw how much bait you just attached to your line.
Problem is, no ones biting and your lure is sinking to the bottom.

That can't be true, you didn't rate his post as ''Funny''. Stop lying Eldry, it'll give your kingdom a bad name!

 

[Eldrylars]

On a constructive note,
You all know where I stand on the issues of township owner and citizens rights.
This might be a good time to discuss and share you opinions and reasoning for them. It could be a fun exercise if the trolling could leave the thread.

 

[Angyles]

I stated previously I did not see merit in closing this as long as the discussion was being done in a mature fashion. If you want to troll go elsewhere, keep the comments on point and act with some level of decorum.

 

[Dsawemd]

Next map, one of the requirements for town (not hamlet) should be a basic notification of how officials are elected/appointed/dictators for life. Most often I see single leaders who remain in charge as long as they are active, councils which divide up work and leadership, and occasionally rotating, more democratic style leadership.

In addition, once an upgrade becomes official, any new overall leader position must be decided with equal participation from each lower tier (all town leaders vote on King).

This would ensure that individual towns have the choice to be either democratic (most fair to all) or tyrannical (often the most fair, considering mayors often carry towns), yet it would also ensure that there was never a case where an established community feels their reputation and standing usurped by an ineffective king.

If a town wants to leave an alliance prior to the upgrade, that would be acceptable, but after the upgrade to kingdom/empire they would have to work within their community to remove their problems.

 

[Symbolite]

I think at one point Kain wanted to put in a township voting system where citizens could elect a mayor once a week. Idk what ever happened to that.

 

[Angyles]

I think at one point Kain wanted to put in a township voting system where citizens could elect a mayor once a week. Idk what ever happened to that.

Until the mayor appointing system is working again, I am sure this is on the back burner. I doubt Kainzo wants to take down the server once a week just to switch mayors if need be haha.