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Balance Team Meeting: Mondays @ 6PM CST

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Tier 8
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Jul 3, 2011
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358
#61
My bad on missing today's meeting, spent the day doing Event Stuff and prepping for Fallout 4 DLC.

With the recent nerf to paladin left click damage and the removal of reckoning's interrupt, I think paladin is in a pretty good spot right now. Maybe you guys don't really understand exactly how long a 5 second warmup is, but if someone in my party is getting focused, saying "Alright im warming up layhands, just chill out for 5 seconds and try not to die" seems irrational. Using the skill also drains all your remaining mana, pretty much screwing you over for the remainder of the fight.
Don't have anything different to say, I agree with this.
 

Jrr_

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#62
Druid is so op and always will be until a rework or you massively nerf the damage. But nerfing the damage will make people not play the class, so keep it how it is at the moment.
 
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#63
Out of anyone on the current team, I probably have the most experience playing both druid and paladin, and I think these changes are too much. Druid is really only good in the 1v1 scenario, team fights it gets burst down too quickly for its heals over time to do anything; which is part of the reason why it has more armor. I agree it's current amount may be a tad too high, thats why lowering it to bloodmage's current full leather/chain helmet should work.

The problem was never changes being pushed to the repo, it were them being actually pushed to live. Why go through the process of amending a change when not everyone on the team actually agrees with it? With pretty big nerfs on classes we should go over them in depth on the forums to make sure they aren't too much, like these current ones suggested were.

With the recent nerf to paladin left click damage and the removal of reckoning's interrupt, I think paladin is in a pretty good spot right now. Maybe you guys don't really understand exactly how long a 5 second warmup is, but if someone in my party is getting focused, saying "Alright im warming up layhands, just chill out for 5 seconds and try not to die" seems irrational. Using the skill also drains all your remaining mana, pretty much screwing you over for the remainder of the fight.
Irish, not trying to be rude here but you have bias towards the class for that reason. Druid is overwhelmingly strong in many scenarios, and you really cannot say that it gets burst down too fast to have an impact on a fight because their heals will keep them alive for a very long time. I do not care about how much you play a class. Everyone here has played every class or at least fought against it. Druid NEVER needed more armor than the full leather set, and people had voiced their opinion on how strong the class was even before the armor was increased, just making it stronger. The class has strong heals that are very effective and will keep it alive for quite a bit, along with a very large amount of damage given the sustain, and a tiny bit of cc. Even when you do get bursted down do you know how much they have to waste on you? Or how much time it takes that your team can be killing them? Or the classes needed to burst it fast enough and how much impact they have the rest of the fight? Irish you have shown bias towards druid for a very long time, please do not get upset when we try to nerf a class.

I understand completely how long 5 seconds is and that's why layhands needs the 5 second warm-up, it isn't meant to be your main healer. if someone is getting focused they shouldn't be in 1 second boom, back to full hp from a class that is NOT a healer. Paladin's job is tanking and giving a little more sustain to the group. There are also plenty of ways to get your mana back such as battery and emeralds. I think you are losing sight of what role each class plays, paladin is meant to be a tanky off healer and not a main healer, and not a damage dealer. With your example, I don't see how you possibly made Fullheal's warm-up 5 seconds when the class is a DEDICATED HEALER, don't even say that it's because the class has other heals to sustain the target because paladin has absolution that has a short warm-up for a heal slightly weaker than SacredTouch.
 
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#64
Irish, not trying to be rude here but you have bias towards the class for that reason. Druid is overwhelmingly strong in many scenarios, and you really cannot say that it gets burst down too fast to have an impact on a fight because their heals will keep them alive for a very long time. I do not care about how much you play a class. Everyone here has played every class or at least fought against it. Druid NEVER needed more armor than the full leather set, and people had voiced their opinion on how strong the class was even before the armor was increased, just making it stronger. The class has strong heals that are very effective and will keep it alive for quite a bit, along with a very large amount of damage given the sustain, and a tiny bit of cc. Even when you do get bursted down do you know how much they have to waste on you? Or how much time it takes that your team can be killing them? Or the classes needed to burst it fast enough and how much impact they have the rest of the fight? Irish you have shown bias towards druid for a very long time, please do not get upset when we try to nerf a class.

I understand completely how long 5 seconds is and that's why layhands needs the 5 second warm-up, it isn't meant to be your main healer. if someone is getting focused they shouldn't be in 1 second boom, back to full hp from a class that is NOT a healer. Paladin's job is tanking and giving a little more sustain to the group. There are also plenty of ways to get your mana back such as battery and emeralds. I think you are losing sight of what role each class plays, paladin is meant to be a tanky off healer and not a main healer, and not a damage dealer. With your example, I don't see how you possibly made Fullheal's warm-up 5 seconds when the class is a DEDICATED HEALER, don't even say that it's because the class has other heals to sustain the target because paladin has absolution that has a short warm-up for a heal slightly weaker than SacredTouch.
As the person who gave a warmup to ire, decreased bolts damage and increased its cooldown, increased the cooldown and decreased the healing on soothe, and several other direct nerfs to Druid, you calling me biased with regards to Druid has no real merit. Again, maybe you don't understand what heals over time does in a group fight. Sure, it can out sustain 1-2 people attackikg it in a small skirmish (or free for all tournament), but if you look at a group fight, they get killed before their heals over time can even be effective. Just saying I'm biased towards a class also doesn't really make any sense, as I've consistently played every single class for the past 3 maps and don't really have a favorite; I just play what is strong given the current server environment; and you don't see me playing Druid much anymore because it's really not that strong outside of arena, 1v1s, and small skirmishes. As @Jrr_ said, straight nerfs to the armor would make Druid even more underplayed, a rework with the direction of the class is a better option and has been suggested by many for a couple of years, but we never had time to actually do it.

Again, saying I'm losing sight of the role each class plays makes absolutely zero sense. If kainzo wanted layhands gone, he's had plenty of opportunities to get rid of it, but he hasn't, it's a major aspect of the class. We already nerfed it to the ground by it draining all remaining mama and adding a small warmup, and I could agree to a 2.5-3 second warmup but not 5. I also don't know why people keep saying paladin brings a lot of damage to the table. It's left click is around 42, does minimal damage with reckoning, can get 2.5ish hearts down if they use divine stun, but that's pretty much it. If a paladin is trying to do damage it runs out of mana, stamina, and gets kited really easily (which is also intended).
 

MunchlaxHero

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#65
Out of anyone on the current team, I probably have the most experience playing both druid and paladin, and I think these changes are too much. Druid is really only good in the 1v1 scenario, team fights it gets burst down too quickly for its heals over time to do anything; which is part of the reason why it has more armor. I agree it's current amount may be a tad too high, thats why lowering it to bloodmage's current full leather/chain helmet should work.

The problem was never changes being pushed to the repo, it were them being actually pushed to live. Why go through the process of amending a change when not everyone on the team actually agrees with it? With pretty big nerfs on classes we should go over them in depth on the forums to make sure they aren't too much, like these current ones suggested were.

With the recent nerf to paladin left click damage and the removal of reckoning's interrupt, I think paladin is in a pretty good spot right now. Maybe you guys don't really understand exactly how long a 5 second warmup is, but if someone in my party is getting focused, saying "Alright im warming up layhands, just chill out for 5 seconds and try not to die" seems irrational. Using the skill also drains all your remaining mana, pretty much screwing you over for the remainder of the fight.
Reckoning still has an interrupt last time i checked, Kainzo wants that kept in.
 

MunchlaxHero

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#66
My bad on missing today's meeting, spent the day doing Event Stuff and prepping for Fallout 4 DLC.


Don't have anything different to say, I agree with this.
Yes this was not the ideal nerf to it, but it is the way it will be until we can get it coded to run off the heal being proportional to the amount of mana you have, we could have just as easily taken the skill out, but we did not want to remove it.
Out of anyone on the current team, I probably have the most experience playing both druid and paladin, and I think these changes are too much. Druid is really only good in the 1v1 scenario, team fights it gets burst down too quickly for its heals over time to do anything; which is part of the reason why it has more armor. I agree it's current amount may be a tad too high, thats why lowering it to bloodmage's current full leather/chain helmet should work.

The problem was never changes being pushed to the repo, it were them being actually pushed to live. Why go through the process of amending a change when not everyone on the team actually agrees with it? With pretty big nerfs on classes we should go over them in depth on the forums to make sure they aren't too much, like these current ones suggested were.

With the recent nerf to paladin left click damage and the removal of reckoning's interrupt, I think paladin is in a pretty good spot right now. Maybe you guys don't really understand exactly how long a 5 second warmup is, but if someone in my party is getting focused, saying "Alright im warming up layhands, just chill out for 5 seconds and try not to die" seems irrational. Using the skill also drains all your remaining mana, pretty much screwing you over for the remainder of the fight.
Everyone agreed with these changes in the meeting and we have never brought it to the forums for others opinions, if you do not like the changes show up next meeting and speak your argument, but it seems like the 5 of use agree that paladin and druid are strong. I still will say that I believe the changes were a little drastic but that does not mean they are wrong. We can easily add a chain helmet next week or lower the warmup to 4 seconds. This is why it is a Balance Team, sadly no matter what everyone has their bias, I admit I have a bias towards Ninja and Dragoon, from personal experience, but we can all hopefully say that Dragoon and Ninja are not really broken right now.
 
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#67
As the person who gave a warmup to ire, decreased bolts damage and increased its cooldown, increased the cooldown and decreased the healing on soothe, and several other direct nerfs to Druid, you calling me biased with regards to Druid has no real merit. Again, maybe you don't understand what heals over time does in a group fight. Sure, it can out sustain 1-2 people attackikg it in a small skirmish (or free for all tournament), but if you look at a group fight, they get killed before their heals over time can even be effective. Just saying I'm biased towards a class also doesn't really make any sense, as I've consistently played every single class for the past 3 maps and don't really have a favorite; I just play what is strong given the current server environment; and you don't see me playing Druid much anymore because it's really not that strong outside of arena, 1v1s, and small skirmishes. As @Jrr_ said, straight nerfs to the armor would make Druid even more underplayed, a rework with the direction of the class is a better option and has been suggested by many for a couple of years, but we never had time to actually do it.

Again, saying I'm losing sight of the role each class plays makes absolutely zero sense. If kainzo wanted layhands gone, he's had plenty of opportunities to get rid of it, but he hasn't, it's a major aspect of the class. We already nerfed it to the ground by it draining all remaining mama and adding a small warmup, and I could agree to a 2.5-3 second warmup but not 5. I also don't know why people keep saying paladin brings a lot of damage to the table. It's left click is around 42, does minimal damage with reckoning, can get 2.5ish hearts down if they use divine stun, but that's pretty much it. If a paladin is trying to do damage it runs out of mana, stamina, and gets kited really easily (which is also intended).
I'm not going to get into an argument on why you are wrong and biased because x y and z, but since then Druid has been buffed where it was fine before. The armor buff was not needed at all in the first place. The class has no mana issues, and still has extremely high damage for the amount of sustain, which by the way will sustain you in a group fight considering you have a group of your own actually doing something. Druid isn't played because it's a pretty boring class, but that doesn't mean make it stronger because the playstyle sucks, your job is to balance classes compared to the other classes not make everyone want to play it.

Onto what Paladin should be doing. It is NOT A MAIN HEALER. plain and simple. it's healing needs to be weaker than the comparable skills from a main healer (Cleric with SacredTouch and Fullheal) and with Fullheals warm-up being 5 seconds layhands needs to be the same if not weaker. There is no reason that a warrior should be able to pop you back up to full faster than a healer. Paladin doesn't have a lot of damage when compared to other classes, but given how tanky it is and the sustain it has, it puts out very considerable damage.
 

0xNaomi

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#68
For the record, I'm actually not a fan of the current iteration of the drain-all-mana Layhands config.
It just seems to encourage burning all your abilities to hit the minimum mana required for use, then use it.

A 5 sec warmup on it probably isn't what it needs; it's a "bandage" fix at most, if anything.
I just want to see if we can get the proportional mana heal in, then it can be instant and low CD for all I care since there's some decision-making and counterplay (should they try to get a Bard or something for mana regen) to the mix.
 

Kainzo

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#69
I actually talked through these changes and was okay with letting layhands go on the factions server.

I do also believe that druids armor being reduced is something that we should be doing... Out of all the healers, cleric should have the most armor, by design, then druid, then bloodmage, then disc

So we need to make sure thats being upheld in the decision making process.
 

TimForReal

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#70
Let's keep these posts strictly about Balance, people's personal lives don't need to be a topic of discussion.

If there are questions about roles or any other issues, please feel free to PM me.
 
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#71
I actually talked through these changes and was okay with letting layhands go on the factions server.

I do also believe that druids armor being reduced is something that we should be doing... Out of all the healers, cleric should have the most armor, by design, then druid, then bloodmage, then disc

So we need to make sure thats being upheld in the decision making process.
I'll go ahead and increase it's armor according to that standard. None of the healers have full leather, the lowest armor rating is 4 bars. Druid was at 5 so I'll change it to 4.5.
 

MunchlaxHero

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#72
I'll go ahead and increase it's armor according to that standard. None of the healers have full leather, the lowest armor rating is 4 bars. Druid was at 5 so I'll change it to 4.5.
We already went over this in the balance team. @Kainzo said to keep it at full leather, do what you want but what is the point of a balance team if you ignore all of the team's wishes.
 
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#73
We already went over this in the balance team. @Kainzo said to keep it at full leather, do what you want but what is the point of a balance team if you ignore all of the team's wishes.
No need to go crazy, read Kainzo's post. Not only will we decrease its armor from its current value of 5 bars, but it will keep it in line with the order armor. Please Read before you rage.
 

0xNaomi

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#74
I'll go ahead and increase it's armor according to that standard. None of the healers have full leather, the lowest armor rating is 4 bars. Druid was at 5 so I'll change it to 4.5.
"increase"
"was at 5 so I'll change it to 4.5"

So are you increasing it or lowering it?
 
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#75
I feel like druid should have the least armor... but that is just my opinion. Disciple should have the second highest behind cleric as it is a melee class and should get the little help from armor too, then bloodmage because it has lower sustain and really isn't in a good spot atm, then druid lastly because of it's sustain and infinite mana.
 

MunchlaxHero

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#79
You can bring up why it needs to be lower. I'll change it to Kainzo's direction
Kainzo already said to keep it at leather and the balance team all agreed with it, like I said you can change it but you would be going against the team and what is the point of a team if we are not listened to?
 

Kainzo

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#80
Where it was, was what was agreed upon -- Druid shouldnt be a heavy armor wearing healer and because it was listed before others, doesnt mean it needs to have 2nd highest either.

Typical speaking, all this will change in 1.9 anyways with mitigation being different per-piece.

To Everyone.
Stop bickering like children - if you want to remain on this team, keep it civil.
Last warning.
 
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