Balance report (Current HC) + Suggestions

[JupiterRome]

Here's a list of changes that doesn't require completely new skills or coding. This also includes skills that change in function using code that already exists which are marked with ***
@Kainzo
Ranger-

• Reduce base armor number from 42.5 to 30
• Add a regent of 1-2 gunpowder to Explosiveshot
• Aimedshot (several options) ***
  • Fix the fact you can shoot arrows while charging this
  • Make it so the arrow will miss if they're not looking at the target (think I've seen line of sight on other skills so nothing new)

Bard-

• Lower base HP from 675 to 630
• Lower bow dmg
  • Numbers for this seem unavaible but fully charged arrows on a max bard do over 110 dmg easily (no agility points)
• Reduce disk dmg from 56.7 to 50

Runeblade-

• Nothing

Ninja- (le sigh)

• Remove free shuriken on backflip
• remove Garrote
• Possibly "test" new smoke idea (no new coding really required) ***
  • Fade is now a toggle skill. When toggled it make the user invisible. This would allow ninja to constantly go in and out of visability providing a new dynamic to the class.
    • Mana: 25 mana per second.
    • Stamina: 65 Stamina per second ( With this, a ninja wouldn't be able to stealth and regain his stamina mid battle)
    • Cooldown: 5 seconds after you've become visible. You become visible when ever you: Take damage, deal damage, or use any skill (This includes fade which will simply reveal you.)

Pyromancer-

• Nothing

Wizard- (finally)

• Lower fireball damage (initial) from 95 to 70
• Lower blink initial range from 8 to 5 and keep scaling at 0.1 per INT
• Remove range scaling on Arcaneblast and reduce range to 6 blocks (from 12+scaling)
• Reduce dmg on Arcaneblast from 215 to 180
• Reduce warm up on arcaneblast from 6-5 to 4
• Increase entangle CD from 20 to 35

Necromancer-

• Fix speed of bonesear (slower)

Beguiler

• Reduce plaguebomb scaling from 2.875 to 1
• Add nausea effect on plaguebomb ***
  • Or better yet the beguile effect but nausea if nothing

Dreadknight-

• Re-add shadowstep

Paladin-

• None

berserker-

• Change Rupture bleeding from 5 damage every block to 10 damage every block (still 8 secs)

Dragoon- (le sigh)

• Jump (le sigh)
  • Decrease CD from 7.5 to 6
  • Increase stam cost from 400 to (550-650)
  • Yes this nerfs running, deal with it.
• Reduce left click base damage on all spades by 6

Druid-

• None

Cleric-

• None

Disciple-

• @TrueCorruptor lol

Shaman-

• @0xNaomi ideas?
• Possibly reduce firestrike totem damage
  • Does pretty high dmg with no attributes

Bloodmage-

• Fix stealessence
  • Currently steals nothing
• Fix boilblood ***
  • DoT only hits 1 person when it should hit more (initial dmg does hit more than 1 target)

Nah druid's a very strong solo atm, the HoTs are okish but its ability to kite is just so overpowderd, maybe a decrease in starting agility would be nice
And for Dk Re add Harrow 2?

 

[Egorh]

Disciple-

• @TrueCorruptor lol

Well here are the summed up changes

• Forcepull and forcepush scale with intellect and do magic damage
• Flyingkick's range now scales with strength
• Increase slow on Ironfist to slow III but decrease damage
• Remove alacrity (@Kainzo do you still want disciple to have a stat increasing skill? Maybe something that adds strength and intellect?)
• Buff Disciple's base armor weight by 5
• To help compare it to other armor weights
  • Disciple, 29 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Wizard, 19 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Runeblade, 20 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Ranger, 5 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Cleric, 5 Endurance: 50 armor weight

 

[Dsawemd]

Well here are the summed up changes

I see a much stronger disciple, perhaps too strong. If this is all done, Disciple needs to be watched. Edit: The change I would avoid is replacing Alacrity with a STR or INT buff, that would be too much of both solo and group utility.

In summary: Good armor increase, Good IronFist Utility.
Yes to FlyingKick STR scaling and Alacrity replacement ONLY in conjunction with ForceMove INT scaling.

 

[Egorh]

I see a much stronger disciple, perhaps too strong. If this is all done, Disciple needs to be watched. Edit: The change I would avoid is replacing Alacrity with a STR or INT buff, that would be too much of both solo and group utility.

In summary: Good armor increase, Good IronFist Utility.
Yes to FlyingKick STR scaling and Alacrity replacement ONLY in conjunction with ForceMove INT scaling.

That was sort of what I was thinking--do we really need a different stat skill to go along with these buffs? Probably not.

 

[JupiterRome]

Well here are the summed up changes

• Forcepull and forcepush scale with intellect and do magic damage
• Flyingkick's range now scales with strength
• Increase slow on Ironfist to slow III but decrease damage
• Remove alacrity (@Kainzo do you still want disciple to have a stat increasing skill? Maybe something that adds strength and intellect?)
• Buff Disciple's base armor weight by 5
• To help compare it to other armor weights
  • Disciple, 29 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Wizard, 19 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Runeblade, 20 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Ranger, 5 Endurance: 40 armor weight
  • Cleric, 5 Endurance: 50 armor weight

Forcepush/pull already do scale with int, but the scaling is pretty bad.

 

[Dsawemd]

Forcepush/pull already do scale with int, but the scaling is pretty bad.

Current: ForceMoves scale Damage with STR and range with INT
Suggested: ForceMoves Damage and Range scale with INT

 

[JupiterRome]

Current: ForceMoves scale Damage with STR and range with INT
Suggested: ForceMoves Damage and Range scale with INT

kk thanks didn't know that

 

[mikehk]

we've been repeating ourselves for awile on most of this...

I disagree with all those wizard nerfs. keep blink the same distance, it needs a long one to compensate for squishy, but increase CD by like 2 seconds. arcaneblast already has a warmup of 4.5 seconds, and the range is indeed ridiculous, but 6 is also ridiculous. we dont want a melee range wizard, I'd go with 9 or 10 blocks on it instead. and keep the damage too, reduced range/long warmup give you plenty of time to bash/stun/some form of interrupt or simply escape.

also ninja, dont remove garrote, simply fix it. its meant as a silence, not a damage skill and it SHOULD either require sneak/invis and behind the target, not some stupid skill a ninja charges at you with string. yes because strangling someone from the front with string makes perfect sense. again, just fix it please.

other than those few things, I agree with the rest.

 

[Dsawemd]

@JupiterRome @Druids Any thoughts on shifting the heal numbers around on Druid skills to make sure there are no skills going unused?
http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/druids-regrowth-skill.50962/#post-401211
Tha'ts a thread where the community claims 'Regrowth sux' and that some heals aren''t mana efficient compared to other heals.

 

[Dsawemd]

Here's my attempt at a Beguiler rework, without numbers. We'll do numbers if we like it.

1. PlagueBomb loses most of its scaling with INT, and does reduced damage but adds a Nausea effect (duration increasing with Charisma) . At the same time, the control skills (Entangle, Beguile, MassRoot) gain greater scaling from Charisma, either through buffs to the skills or reduction of base levels. This change is designed to make the Beguiler build their attributes into Charisma like a Bard might, and will help the class settle into the role of the control mage.
2. MassRoot re-enabled. With MassPiggify and Piggify gone, a MassRoot skill has not been implemented along with a Root (Entangle). AoE control, even for a short while or on a long cooldown, is important for a control oriented class.
3. Beguile deals damage to the target as it moves. Duration increases with Charisma, as it does now. Other CC skills (Entangle, MassRoot) do damage at the end of their effect unless they are dispelled, based on Charisma.

 

[Egorh]

Here's my attempt at a Beguiler rework, without numbers. We'll do numbers if we like it.

1. PlagueBomb loses most of its scaling with INT, and does reduced damage but adds a Nausea effect (duration increasing with Charisma) . At the same time, the control skills (Entangle, Beguile, MassRoot) gain greater scaling from Charisma, either through buffs to the skills or reduction of base levels. This change is designed to make the Beguiler build their attributes into Charisma like a Bard might, and will help the class settle into the role of the control mage.
2. MassRoot re-enabled. With MassPiggify and Piggify gone, a MassRoot skill has not been implemented along with a Root (Entangle). AoE control, even for a short while or on a long cooldown, is important for a control oriented class.
3. Beguile deals damage to the target as it moves. Duration increases with Charisma, as it does now. Other CC skills (Entangle, MassRoot) do damage at the end of their effect unless they are dispelled, based on Charisma.

In my opinion it would be very awkward to have damage at the end of a root. A lot of the time people aren't in the root for the full duration. They get hit or chakra'd to end the root. Would being hit count as the full duration, or a dispel?

I think if we nerf the scaling on Plague Bomb, and its base damage we won't need to add the damage at the end of a CC effect. I also agree with adding nausea to Plague Bomb, but I think it should be with Faux Bomb. It has been called the most useless skill and giving it nausea and reducing its mana cost will make it useful.

Wouldn't Beguile doing damage as it moves just be a forced Rupture?

 

[Dsawemd]

1. In my opinion it would be very awkward to have damage at the end of a root. A lot of the time people aren't in the root for the full duration. They get hit or chakra'd to end the root. Would being hit count as the full duration, or a dispel?

2. I think if we nerf the scaling on Plague Bomb, and its base damage we won't need to add the damage at the end of a CC effect. I also agree with adding nausea to Plague Bomb, but I think it should be with Faux Bomb. It has been called the most useless skill and giving it nausea and reducing its mana cost will make it useful.

3. Wouldn't Beguile doing damage as it moves just be a forced Rupture?

1. Damage or Status Effect happens when the Control spell ends EXCEPT when dispelled. Chakra would safely remove it, getting hit would proc the Damage or Status Effect. It would be enough damage or debuffs to be helpful for focusing the target the Beguiler is controlling, but not so much that this is a main source of damage. This would help Beguiler because the ENTIRE current Damage rotation is PlagueBomb Fireball Pulse (repeat).
Another way to effectively make Beguilers use their CC is to add warm-ups or increase their ability to lock down a target by buffing their CC and nerfing their damaging skills.

2. FauxBomb Nausea: yes. PlagueBomb nerfs are being done for a reason, but when the AoE Nuke (bread and butter) of a class is change, it needs some other sort of role. The damage-during-cc is just an idea to increase the reliance on control skills for the Beguiler playstyle.

3. Yes, it would be. Another way of viewing it would be as just another DoT that is now applied to Beguile. Its not an original idea.

When you take away the "Tricked you into walking into a bomb" and make stepping on the bomb more like stepping on dog shit (unpleasant but not life threatening), then the "Tricked" part really has a chance to shine. How would you do it?

 

[Dsawemd]

Dragoon: Lower left click damage by ~4 and increase Jump CD by ~2 secs.
(going off what LightningCape said) We like these changes?

 

[LightningCape]

we've been repeating ourselves for awile on most of this...

I disagree with all those wizard nerfs. keep blink the same distance, it needs a long one to compensate for squishy, but increase CD by like 2 seconds. arcaneblast already has a warmup of 4.5 seconds, and the range is indeed ridiculous, but 6 is also ridiculous. we dont want a melee range wizard, I'd go with 9 or 10 blocks on it instead. and keep the damage too, reduced range/long warmup give you plenty of time to bash/stun/some form of interrupt or simply escape.

also ninja, dont remove garrote, simply fix it. its meant as a silence, not a damage skill and it SHOULD either require sneak/invis and behind the target, not some stupid skill a ninja charges at you with string. yes because strangling someone from the front with string makes perfect sense. again, just fix it please.

other than those few things, I agree with the rest.

No offence but I don't think you realize how far 6 blocks still is and last time I checked the warm up is not 4.5 seconds. For that kind of damage a wizard should have to take some risk. 10 blocks is absurd. You're also mad if you think they should keep the damage. Period.

Also note that arcaneblast would still have damage scaling under my suggestion. You'll still be able to get some pretty high damage I just want it less stupid if possible.

Also garrote was not meant to be a silence it was meant to be a stun (which we all don't want). It's just a horrible kick and quite frankly has no purpose. It just needs a removal.

Dragoon: Lower left click damage by ~4 and increase Jump CD by ~2 secs.
(going off what LightningCape said) We like these changes?

More than 4. Dragoon is currently doing rogue like damage. Anymore damage with its currently mobility I'd just suggest it lose some armor and be moved to the rogue path. Also increasing jump CD literally does nothing. We've tried this before.

 

[mikehk]

No offence but I don't think you realize how far 6 blocks still is and last time I checked the warm up is not 4.5 seconds. For that kind of damage a wizard should have to take some risk. 10 blocks is absurd. You're also mad if you think they should keep the damage. Period.

Also note the arcaneblast would still have damage scaling under my suggest. You'll still be able to get some pretty high damage I just want it less stupid if possible.

Also garrote was not meant to be a silence it was meant to be a stun (which we all don't want). It's just a horrible kick and quite frankly has no purpose. It just needs a removal.

More than 4. Dragoon is currently doing rogue like damage. Anymore damage with its currently mobility I'd just suggest it lose some armor and be moved to the rogue path. Also increasing jump CD literally does nothing. We've tried this before.

6 blocks is about the range of spear on dragoon, its really short. most melee skills have a range of 4 blocks, 6 is WAAAY too short for a squishy as hell class. it SHOULD be able to wreck the warriors that cant catch it, but if a rogue jumps it (like rogues are meant to do) its well fucked over. it plays as it should, and arcaneblast warmup should not be lowered because currently, its easy to interupt if you're paying attention and not just spamming random skills. fireball damage however, should be reduced.

 

[Dsawemd]

More than 4. Dragoon is currently doing rogue like damage. Anymore damage with its currently mobility I'd just suggest it lose some armor and be moved to the rogue path. Also increasing jump CD literally does nothing. We've tried this before.

1. I disagree with nerfing any class's main method of damage by more than 10% at a time (edit:without a huge change in role), lets keep the damage nerf ~6 (10%) and see where it takes the class.
2. Using Hyperbole isn't encouraged in this thread, and this obviously (and literally) does something. Increasing the Cooldown keeps the class in it's intended mobile engager/disengager, while reducing running potential. Taking Jump and making it out of combat will NOT stop dragoons from escaping (they will simply play a bit smarter and use SuperJump), but it will change the way that the class has been played for several maps.
I think that if a class has a bread and butter skill, it should not be usable only outside of combat, but should instead be balance through other stats. I understand that logic for Revives or Ports, but not for important mobility skills like Blink or Jump.

 

[Dsawemd]

Now that I have Konfirmation (heh) that Beguiler is aimed at being a Control/Support Mage:
TLDR :
Goal:
Make Beguiler a competitive class that is a Support Mage, and remove the class's AoE nuke role.
How:
Nerfed PlagueBomb's damage and general Intellect scaling, made Charisma a much more attractive stat by lowering some base levels and increasing scaling, added lots of additional "soft-cc" like a blind and a NauseaFireball to the kit. To increase support utility, Purge now applies stolen buffs to your party, but not to you.
/TLDR

I have tried to increase CC and soft CC, give the class a solid max level skill in MassBeguile, while making Beguilers build Charisma and a bit of Intellect to have a well rounded Support Mage Build.

EDIT: MassPiggify is back in game, so ignore the MassBeguile skill as it would probably be too much AoE cc.
MassBeguile: Replace MassPiggify. All enemies within 10 blocks are Beguiled for 0.5+0.075 per Charisma point. (Higher Range than MassPig, same base level, same scaling, same costs). The range seemed like a good place to buff this skill since it will be used to scatter a group, and it will be a larger part of the Support Mage kit than the Nuker kit meaning it deserves to be a strong skill.
Beguile: Target wanders for 2 + .2 per Charisma Seconds (changed from 2.5 + .163 per CHA)
EDIT: Piggify Target Rooted for .75 + .125 per CHA (changed from 1+ .1 per CHA)

PlagueBomb (OR Instant MegaBolt that is cast at location rather than on-Target): 100 + 1 per intellect Damage. Down from 125+ 2.875 Int Scaling. If Bolt method used, range would be similar to PB range, 5-6 blocks.
FauxBomb: The fake sheep becomes even Trickier to make up for the fact that is is not as Scary now. It applies a Blind to anyone who is in the radius. Now players will have reason to avoid both kinds of sheep. REMEMBER: most top pvpers will disable Blinds with a legal mod, optifine. So until that changes, even with this buff the FauxBomb skill remains situational. EDIT: Or it applies a slow (credit:TrueCorrupter).
(Nausea)Fireball: 95+ 1.25 per INT (down from 95+1.75 per INT), and instead of settting the Target on fire, causes Nausea for a short duration scaling with Charisma.
Beguiler is the last non-wizard Caster Class to use Fireball (Necros and Pyros have their own unique bread and butter replacements in BoneSpear and ChaosOrb).

Kainzo mentioned he wanted Beguiler to be a support class in terms of Group Buffs as well as CC skills.
Purge: The Beneficial Magical Effect Purged from the Target is applied to the Beguilers Party within 30 blocks (NOT the Beguiler). This makes the Purge skill like a StealEssence for your group.


All other skills remain the same.

I have tried to increase CC and soft CC, give the class a solid max level skill in MassBeguile, while making Beguilers build Charisma and a bit of Intellect to have a well rounded Support Mage Build.
@Balance Team

 

[Dsawemd]

Concerns from the Community seem to focus on a few classes having un-fun Mechanics/Balance:

Dragoon, Wizard, and Ranger are considered as the priority strong classes to look at. Dragoon is called too "Mobile-Damage-Tanky" Wizard is called too "Mobile-Bursty" and Ranger is considered too "AimedShot and ExplosiveShot WIN".

If you want to wade through it a bit, http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/balance-concerns.50966/page-2#post-401444

 

[Egorh]

Now that I have Konfirmation (heh) that Beguiler is aimed at being a Control/Support Mage:
TLDR :
Goal:
Make Beguiler a competitive class that is a Support Mage, and remove the class's AoE nuke role.
How:
Nerfed PlagueBomb's damage and general Intellect scaling, made Charisma a much more attractive stat by lowering some base levels and increasing scaling, added lots of additional "soft-cc" like a blind and a NauseaFireball to the kit. To increase support utility, Purge now applies stolen buffs to your party, but not to you.
/TLDR

I have tried to increase CC and soft CC, give the class a solid max level skill in MassBeguile, while making Beguilers build Charisma and a bit of Intellect to have a well rounded Support Mage Build.


MassBeguile: Replace MassPiggify. All enemies within 10 blocks are Beguiled for 0.5+0.075 per Charisma point. (Higher Range than MassPig, same base level, same scaling, same costs). The range seemed like a good place to buff this skill since it will be used to scatter a group, and it will be a larger part of the Support Mage kit than the Nuker kit meaning it deserves to be a strong skill.
Beguile: Target wanders for 2 + .2 per Charisma Seconds (changed from 2.5 + .163 per CHA)
Entangle: (Using Wiki Piggify description as source of old numbers) Target Rooted for .75 + .125 per CHA (changed from 1+ .1 per CHA)

PlagueBomb (OR Instant MegaBolt that is cast at location rather than on-Target): 100 + 1 per intellect Damage. Down from 125+ 2.875 Int Scaling. If Bolt method used, range would be similar to PB range, 5-6 blocks.
FauxBomb: The fake sheep becomes even Trickier to make up for the fact that is is not as Scary now. It applies a Blind to anyone who is in the radius. Now players will have reason to avoid both kinds of sheep. REMEMBER: most top pvpers will disable Blinds with a legal mod, optifine. So until that changes, even with this buff the FauxBomb skill remains situational.
Fireball: 95+ 1.25 per INT (down from 95+1.75 per INT), and instead of settting the Target on fire, causes Nausea for a short duration scaling with Charisma.
Beguiler is the last non-wizard Caster Class to use Fireball (Necros and Pyros have their own unique bread and butter replacements in BoneSpear and ChaosOrb).

Kainzo mentioned he wanted Beguiler to be a support class in terms of Group Buffs as well as CC skills.
Purge: The Beneficial Magical Effect Purged from the Target is applied to the Beguilers Party within 30 blocks (NOT the Beguiler). This makes the Purge skill like a StealEssence for your group.


All other skills remain the same.

I have tried to increase CC and soft CC, give the class a solid max level skill in MassBeguile, while making Beguilers build Charisma and a bit of Intellect to have a well rounded Support Mage Build.
@Balance Team

Because blind can be disabled and a blind acts similar to a silence (personally I don't believe they should have an AOE silence-would make their kit a bit too strong), I would rather have Faux Bomb be a slow, not a blind

Concerns from the Community seem to focus on a few classes having un-fun Mechanics/Balance:

Dragoon, Wizard, and Ranger are considered as the priority strong classes to look at. Dragoon is called too "Mobile-Damage-Tanky" Wizard is called too "Mobile-Bursty" and Ranger is considered too "AimedShot and ExplosiveShot WIN".

If you want to wade through it a bit, http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/balance-concerns.50966/page-2#post-401444

Well, we are already addressing Dragoon and Wizard. People complain about ranger for the wrong reasons. Aimedshot and Explosive shot are what make the class playable in any sort of lag. Ranger requires more skill than most. People end up complaining because even when they do get close enough they don't do a lot of damage because of it's natural tankiness; which we are nerfing. And we are adding a reagent to Explosive Shot + I think Aimedshot's range has already been nerfed (the main problem is shooting arrows while aimedshot charges).

Overall all of these classes are getting the appropriate fixes

 

[LightningCape]

1. I disagree with nerfing any class's main method of damage by more than 10% at a time .

Not sure how you can balance if this is true. Sometimes certain steps have to be taken. Simple as that.

1. I disagree with nerfing any class's main method of damage by more than 10% at a time (edit:without a huge change in role), lets keep the damage nerf ~6 (10%) and see where it takes the class.
2. Using Hyperbole isn't encouraged in this thread, and this obviously (and literally) does something. Increasing the Cooldown keeps the class in it's intended mobile engager/disengager, while reducing running potential. Taking Jump and making it out of combat will NOT stop dragoons from escaping (they will simply play a bit smarter and use SuperJump), but it will change the way that the class has been played for several maps.
I think that if a class has a bread and butter skill, it should not be usable only outside of combat, but should instead be balance through other stats. I understand that logic for Revives or Ports, but not for important mobility skills like Blink or Jump.

Hyperbole? I'm speaking logically. If person A is going at the same speed as person B and person A is even slightly ahead, person B will never catch up. (Assuming that they can maintain said speeds). Now apply this to running and jump ( we can pretend this skill is used for other things but that's foolish), if I get ahead of someone using jump and were both running at the same speed I just wait for the CD and do it again. Eventually the gap will get large enough that further running would be pointless. Is dragoon a rogue or a warrior? I personally don't know.

Also not sure how many time people have said this. No one is suggesting to make jump an out of combat ability.

Concerns from the Community seem to focus on a few classes having un-fun Mechanics/Balance:
Dragoon, Wizard, and Ranger are considered as the priority strong classes to look at. Dragoon is called too "Mobile-Damage-Tanky" Wizard is called too "Mobile-Bursty" and Ranger is considered too "AimedShot and ExplosiveShot WIN".
If you want to wade through it a bit, http://herocraftonline.com/main/threads/balance-concerns.50966/page-2#post-401444

Better to read these with a grain of salt. Most posts are very bias.
Facts:
-Dragoon isn't really that tanky (rogue vs warrior)
-Ranger is really tanky for a rogue
-Wizard dmg...