- Joined
- Mar 4, 2011
- Location
- Earth
Introduction.
This post is going to seek to open up community discussion around a topic that I think is both important for the community to discuss as well as relevant to us all as members of the Herocraft community. This one might be a bit long winded, so I'm sorry in advance. With that being said, allow me to pose a question:
When is PvP not PvP?
It might seem like a silly question but it’s something I want to explore, because I think it’s a vital opportunity for the Herocraft community to reflect on itself and what it wants to become. We’re all a lot older than we were when Herocraft was in its prime and I think its important that we take some time to discuss the kind of community we are and are going to be.
A History of Bloodshed
Its no secret that Herocraft is incredibly PvP centric. I’ve discussed this a little bit in my last post about encouraging building and incentivizing creativity but allow me to briefly repeat myself. In the past we’ve alienated tons of players due to toxic behavior. Spawn camping, toxic banter, trash talk, and general dishonorable conduct have driven loads of players from the server in the past.
To quote myself
What’s Your Point?
If you’ve logged in recently, you’ll notice that the Beta caps out around 10 players on a good day. That’s not a bad thing, the beta isn’t going to be indicative of actual turnout. But the days of Herocraft’s 50-100 players average are long gone. We’re always going to see lower numbers and a smaller community. If we want that community to grow, we can’t risk alienating players and having them log in, look around, die, and then log off and delete Herocraft from their server browser.
What I’m concerned about are the new players who are going to log in on or a little after launch, start their new character, maybe get to level 10 and then get their shit kicked in by a ninja 25 levels higher than them who is looking for PvP.
Well, That’s Just Part of The Experience. Herocraft Isn’t For Everyone.
This is probably the most common excuse that I hear. I think it’s a load of shit. Herocraft is modeled after classical MMOs like WoW, which don’t even remotely resemble Minecraft. Can you imagine if WoW had PvP enabled everywhere? Can you imagine if Runescape or Guild Wars let you just stroll up to literally anyone and start wailing on them? Even Runescape’s Deadman Mode, a game mode that has PvP enabled nearly everywhere has safe zones and grace periods that prevent players from being attacked.
Players are the lifeblood of any game and if the systems and mechanics encourage ruthless self-serving tactics then the player base is going to act ruthless and self-serving. And in our case, that will create an environment for which it is difficult or impossible for new players to acclimate to the climate of Herocraft. Any game should want to retain its playerbase and being “hardcore” shouldn’t demand a slow and self-sacrificing death. Because a game without players is dead and a community without noobs is slowly going to dry up and power off its servers for the last time.
I can’t believe you want to BAN PvP!
That is obviously not what I’m suggesting. However, the primary goal of a game is to have fun and players are most likely to leave if they’re not accomplishing what they set out for: personal enjoyment. Having someone vastly more powerful and experienced than you crush you, camp your things, and trash talk you in chat causing you to have to start over from scratch is distinctly NOT fun for a huge amount of people.
The go to reaction of the Hardcore community is usually “well go get him back, steal your stuff back.” And to that I ask: with what gear? With what skills? The dude who just dumpstered you is probably going to have a group or at least a town where he can hide or get reinforcements who also probably out level your solo level 12 necromancer with a stone hoe.
But I think I have more of a problem with what happens after this whole altercation. You’ve died, gone back to your stuff, died again, had your things stolen and now you’re back to square one. Most new players say “wow screw that guy, what a dick” and then go on their way trying to recoup their losses until along comes a different player who does the exact same thing.
Do you see what I’m saying?
Herocraft Punishes Players For Failing and For Having Failed.
The reason death is punishing in a vast majority of games is because there has to be a threat; some sort of reason to try to stay alive. The threat of your items being stolen or lost is enough to motivate most players. In PvP centric games this rewards player skill. But could you imagine if LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Ect matched the highest skilled players against the lowest skilled players? At that point it’s not a competition, it’s a massacre.
But this isn’t Battletoads, you shouldn’t have to suffer a total reset after one such failure, and you shouldn’t have to face off against the highest skill players with the strongest items and abilities right off the bat. You should at least have a little safety net to catch you to make your fall a little less painful.
We can still be hardcore without being totally unforgiving and uncompromising. Which brings me back to the original point of this post. When is PvP not PvP?
When Its Harassment.
If someone has something you want Herocraft puts no limits on you being able to go and kill them and take it, provided its not behind some barrier such as a locked chest or town wall (but not even walls are always safe). This isn’t bad. It’s the fact that there is no barrier for failure, nothing to ensure the player is having fun. And when this happens multiple times, day in and day out, players are going to go elsewhere, filing this server at the bottom of a growing list of servers that they won’t ever play on again.
And do you know the greatest irony of all of this? The PvP community can and will complain about lack of new players and no one to PvP as they literally jump at any group or solo player who logs on, promising them the thrill of the hunt one more time. Avid PvP literally hunts players to extinction and then scratches its head when there’s only a barren wasteland to rule.
A lot of the time I see PvP that is very one sided, because the aggressor is looking for sport while the defender is not. This could easily be fixed by competitions, honorable duels with a wager system, or any number of alternate methods of PvP. Herocraft has a deep and varied combat system, but if you just use it to gank unsuspecting noobs you might as well be playing singleplayer with some automation mod to gather resources for you.
There Need To Be Limits.
Players should have a safety net at low levels or after excessive deaths that prevent PvP for a limited time. The community should be more mindful of new players’ fun even at the sacrifice of their own short-term enjoyment in order to boost player numbers. And we should encourage and engage in honorable conduct and contests of skill rather than underhanded backstabbing simply to steal loot. Valuables should be hard earned in skill or stealth and not because you managed to jump someone after their first mining trip who just joined or hasn’t installed their first macro mod yet.
Please leave civil comments below and let’s discuss it. How do YOU feel about PvP and its place in Herocraft? Where is the line between PvP and harassment? Are birds real? I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
This post is going to seek to open up community discussion around a topic that I think is both important for the community to discuss as well as relevant to us all as members of the Herocraft community. This one might be a bit long winded, so I'm sorry in advance. With that being said, allow me to pose a question:
When is PvP not PvP?
It might seem like a silly question but it’s something I want to explore, because I think it’s a vital opportunity for the Herocraft community to reflect on itself and what it wants to become. We’re all a lot older than we were when Herocraft was in its prime and I think its important that we take some time to discuss the kind of community we are and are going to be.
A History of Bloodshed
Its no secret that Herocraft is incredibly PvP centric. I’ve discussed this a little bit in my last post about encouraging building and incentivizing creativity but allow me to briefly repeat myself. In the past we’ve alienated tons of players due to toxic behavior. Spawn camping, toxic banter, trash talk, and general dishonorable conduct have driven loads of players from the server in the past.
To quote myself
What’s Your Point?
If you’ve logged in recently, you’ll notice that the Beta caps out around 10 players on a good day. That’s not a bad thing, the beta isn’t going to be indicative of actual turnout. But the days of Herocraft’s 50-100 players average are long gone. We’re always going to see lower numbers and a smaller community. If we want that community to grow, we can’t risk alienating players and having them log in, look around, die, and then log off and delete Herocraft from their server browser.
What I’m concerned about are the new players who are going to log in on or a little after launch, start their new character, maybe get to level 10 and then get their shit kicked in by a ninja 25 levels higher than them who is looking for PvP.
Well, That’s Just Part of The Experience. Herocraft Isn’t For Everyone.
This is probably the most common excuse that I hear. I think it’s a load of shit. Herocraft is modeled after classical MMOs like WoW, which don’t even remotely resemble Minecraft. Can you imagine if WoW had PvP enabled everywhere? Can you imagine if Runescape or Guild Wars let you just stroll up to literally anyone and start wailing on them? Even Runescape’s Deadman Mode, a game mode that has PvP enabled nearly everywhere has safe zones and grace periods that prevent players from being attacked.
Players are the lifeblood of any game and if the systems and mechanics encourage ruthless self-serving tactics then the player base is going to act ruthless and self-serving. And in our case, that will create an environment for which it is difficult or impossible for new players to acclimate to the climate of Herocraft. Any game should want to retain its playerbase and being “hardcore” shouldn’t demand a slow and self-sacrificing death. Because a game without players is dead and a community without noobs is slowly going to dry up and power off its servers for the last time.
I can’t believe you want to BAN PvP!
That is obviously not what I’m suggesting. However, the primary goal of a game is to have fun and players are most likely to leave if they’re not accomplishing what they set out for: personal enjoyment. Having someone vastly more powerful and experienced than you crush you, camp your things, and trash talk you in chat causing you to have to start over from scratch is distinctly NOT fun for a huge amount of people.
The go to reaction of the Hardcore community is usually “well go get him back, steal your stuff back.” And to that I ask: with what gear? With what skills? The dude who just dumpstered you is probably going to have a group or at least a town where he can hide or get reinforcements who also probably out level your solo level 12 necromancer with a stone hoe.
But I think I have more of a problem with what happens after this whole altercation. You’ve died, gone back to your stuff, died again, had your things stolen and now you’re back to square one. Most new players say “wow screw that guy, what a dick” and then go on their way trying to recoup their losses until along comes a different player who does the exact same thing.
Do you see what I’m saying?
Herocraft Punishes Players For Failing and For Having Failed.
The reason death is punishing in a vast majority of games is because there has to be a threat; some sort of reason to try to stay alive. The threat of your items being stolen or lost is enough to motivate most players. In PvP centric games this rewards player skill. But could you imagine if LoL, Apex, Fortnite, Ect matched the highest skilled players against the lowest skilled players? At that point it’s not a competition, it’s a massacre.
But this isn’t Battletoads, you shouldn’t have to suffer a total reset after one such failure, and you shouldn’t have to face off against the highest skill players with the strongest items and abilities right off the bat. You should at least have a little safety net to catch you to make your fall a little less painful.
We can still be hardcore without being totally unforgiving and uncompromising. Which brings me back to the original point of this post. When is PvP not PvP?
When Its Harassment.
If someone has something you want Herocraft puts no limits on you being able to go and kill them and take it, provided its not behind some barrier such as a locked chest or town wall (but not even walls are always safe). This isn’t bad. It’s the fact that there is no barrier for failure, nothing to ensure the player is having fun. And when this happens multiple times, day in and day out, players are going to go elsewhere, filing this server at the bottom of a growing list of servers that they won’t ever play on again.
And do you know the greatest irony of all of this? The PvP community can and will complain about lack of new players and no one to PvP as they literally jump at any group or solo player who logs on, promising them the thrill of the hunt one more time. Avid PvP literally hunts players to extinction and then scratches its head when there’s only a barren wasteland to rule.
A lot of the time I see PvP that is very one sided, because the aggressor is looking for sport while the defender is not. This could easily be fixed by competitions, honorable duels with a wager system, or any number of alternate methods of PvP. Herocraft has a deep and varied combat system, but if you just use it to gank unsuspecting noobs you might as well be playing singleplayer with some automation mod to gather resources for you.
There Need To Be Limits.
Players should have a safety net at low levels or after excessive deaths that prevent PvP for a limited time. The community should be more mindful of new players’ fun even at the sacrifice of their own short-term enjoyment in order to boost player numbers. And we should encourage and engage in honorable conduct and contests of skill rather than underhanded backstabbing simply to steal loot. Valuables should be hard earned in skill or stealth and not because you managed to jump someone after their first mining trip who just joined or hasn’t installed their first macro mod yet.
Please leave civil comments below and let’s discuss it. How do YOU feel about PvP and its place in Herocraft? Where is the line between PvP and harassment? Are birds real? I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
