Wizards........ and bolt/megabolt

[Plasma78]

this is supposed to be group combat.
A wizard can do a combo and pretty much stand toe to toe with any class.
There are a few threads on this i think about the combo.

A wizard shouldnt be able to one shot kill another class. or stand alone vs 3 other players.

info from the wiki:
http://www.herocraftonline.com/wiki/index.php/Wizard

I got into a fight with one wizard.
had another warrior with me.
I have 74 hp and full chain armor, full health, and he has alread taking damage from getting hit by other warrior.

He used blink, to get away, and we caught up and hit him again. he used bolt and insta killed other warrior. meanwhile i am still hitting him and hit him with knockback2 and then got one shot bolted and died.
I was at full health, 74hp and i died. magic does go thro armor but not anywhere near that.
besides the fact the mana costs of the maneuvers should have left wizard high and dry. )yes i know they have replenish, but they didn't use it, skill never showed in chat.)

bolt does 30hp damage, megabolt does 25 according to wiki.

With a wizards root, fireball, blot, megabolt, its like goddamn batman and his utility belt of mana.

They need to have regent costs for bolt/megabolt or maybe a longer warmp and cooldown, maybe 3-4 secs??

A squishy wizard with boots should not be able to take on a fight alone.

ok rant over..

 

[HollowSith]

this is supposed to be group combat.
A wizard can do a combo and pretty much stand toe to toe with any class.
There are a few threads on this i think about the combo.

A wizard shouldnt be able to one shot kill another class. or stand alone vs 3 other players.



info from the wiki:
http://www.herocraftonline.com/wiki/index.php/Wizard

I got into a fight with one wizard.
had another warrior with me.
I have 74 hp and full chain armor, full health, and he has alread taking damage from getting hit by other warrior.

He used blink, to get away, and we caught up and hit him again. he used bolt and insta killed other warrior. meanwhile i am still hitting him and hit him with knockback2 and then got one shot bolted and died.
I was at full health, 74hp and i died. magic does go thro armor but not anywhere near that.
besides the fact the mana costs of the maneuvers should have left wizard high and dry. )yes i know they have replenish, but they didn't use it, skill never showed in chat.)

bolt does 30hp damage, megabolt does 25 according to wiki.

With a wizards root, fireball, blot, megabolt, its like goddamn batman and his utility belt of mana.

They need to have regent costs for bolt/megabolt or maybe a longer warmp and cooldown, maybe 3-4 secs??

A squishy wizard with boots should not be able to take on a fight alone.

ok rant over..

Vs. 3 others? Your situation is you and one other warrior. Your defence is chainmail, a low defence set that has no effect deflecting magic. So bolt automatically does 30 damage. Nothing more and nothing less. I am a level 55 Wizard and PVP on a daily basis vs. every class except Necro in the game. 1 Bolt will never one shot any target. I use it dozens of times per day.

Standing alone vs. enemies has to do with who and how he/she is fighting. Your unspec'd so your damage output will be low. Vs-ing a Wizard that has Blink and all his skills unlocked and at his disposal should, if played right, be able to stomp you. If you want easy results your going to have to work for it; that means level up, spec and try again. You have bite and disarm right now. If the Wizard can manage to keep his distance your going to lose. You need to get in close. Obviously you had difficulties keeping up with him earlier today.

One of the draw backs you limited yourself with is the fact that you chose to use a knockback2 sword on a class you want to be as close as possible too. That's just setting your self up for failure in its self right there.

In the scenario you've painted I can't help but feel you've left out some serious details. Such as, were either of you injured before hand? Was the Wizard hitting you with fireballs or pulse? Were you hurting yourself falling over things while chasing him? Were you in a party or mistakenly hitting each other? Either way, it was pretty silly for unspec'd classes to go after an almost fully spec'd Wizard.

As for him having a batman like arsenal. It is necessary. Wizards, when at Max level have 80 HP. One of the lowest HP counts in the game without armour either. When fighting another player at their level they need their skills to survive. If the warmup/cool downs were increased Wizard would be useless in PVP. Kainzo already tried a longer warm up of 3 seconds and it disabled me from killing almost anyone, any level, any spec. They could either get away or kill me before I could cast. Casting has a slowing effect that zooms/ slows the user for 1 second making them unable to run or dodge. This leaving a very squishy class open to attack as it is.

The only thing I can think of in this scenario is either A) your leaving out details, B) are just mad you couldn't take on a Wizard, or C) had bad lag. I've tested bolt on my friends and enemies. It does 30 damage. Unless you found an insta-kill bolt glitch that I've never experienced before; even after playing for several hours today/ this incident happened.

Hope this helps your understanding of the Wizard class a bit better and adds to your awareness of how to take one on!

 

[Digger360]

Although, wizards might be a little to strong. Now that magic strikes though armor, Root + Bolt + Fireball is 80 Damage with burns. Even a 100 if The wiz can manage to get another fireball or pulse off. I understand Wizards are squishy, and extremely Situational , But it seems something is wrong when a wizard that requires no regents can match strengths with a warrior that spends large amount of resources to craft armor/weapons.

I think wizards are powerful enough as is, But seeing as Caster/Healer casters require next to no risk or Restraint in PvP, perhaps casters classes should be forced to hold some worthwhile loot, Perhaps a diamond to *Channel* Spells though, or something like a lily pad or combination of flowers to cast root.

Of course basic spells like fireball wouldn't be effected, That would be extremely unfair to unfair to starting casters.

 

[Kalkyte]

To me all of that was just you defending your class. Regardless of the scenario this was presented in the underlying problem is still unresolved. Wizards have crazy damage skills and root which they can use way to quickly.

As a lvl 50 bard I encountered a similar issue. I had full health (80 something). I ran at the wizard and got rooted 10+ blocks away from him. I never even got a chance to hit him. While rooted I was hit by a bolt and a fireball which pretty much killed me even with my heal.

Sure they are supposed to be squishy damage dealers but they might as well be tanks if you can't even hit them. It's basically an issue similar to ranger. They deal a lot of damage because they need to (being primarily ranged). However, root makes them able to deal damage without receiving any.

 

[Zihara]

Wizard Warm Ups?

With the issue with root and other skills. He's already stated that he wants root removed. Check out this link and Kainzo's comment at the end that root fits well with Wizard. Please read. ( this was all stated before magic damaged through armor.)

 

[HollowSith]

To me all of that was just you defending your class. Regardless of the scenario this was presented in the underlying problem is still unresolved. Wizards have crazy damage skills and root which they can use way to quickly.

As a lvl 50 bard I encountered a similar issue. I had full health (80 something). I ran at the wizard and got rooted 10+ blocks away from him. I never even got a chance to hit him. While rooted I was hit by a bolt and a fireball which pretty much killed me even with my heal.

Sure they are supposed to be squishy damage dealers but they might as well be tanks if you can't even hit them. It's basically an issue similar to ranger. They deal a lot of damage because they need to (being primarily ranged). However, root makes them able to deal damage without receiving any.

I was defending bolt. If it get's a higher cool down or longer warm up, the class WILL NOT be able to kill anyone at any level or any spec. Bolt is the main damage dealing attack, more so then fireball because fireball is unreliable for pure lack of aim. Again, Kainzo attempted a longer warm up already at 3 seconds. During casting Wizards are slowed and view narrowed. This means they have a hard time keeping up with an already running target; running away or running at you. If the cool down was longer the again MAIN damage dealing attack for Wizard would be less useful. Fireball is glitched so when you fireball an already on fire target it 80% of the time doesn't do any excess damage. So you'd have to wait to hurt an enemy. Wizards can be waiting around. It would be setting us up to die.

As for root, I want it gone as-well. But Kainzo stated he wants it in. I suggested Forcepush. A magic skill that only pushes them back. That, or an Ice attack to slow the enemy down. Root is to OP and shouldn't be in the game at all. In no way will I ever defend root.

Although, wizards might be a little to strong. Now that magic strikes though armor, Root + Bolt + Fireball is 80 Damage with burns. Even a 100 if The wiz can manage to get another fireball or pulse off. I understand Wizards are squishy, and extremely Situational , But it seems something is wrong when a wizard that requires no regents can match strengths with a warrior that spends large amount of resources to craft armor/weapons.

I think wizards are powerful enough as is, But seeing as Caster/Healer casters require next to no risk or Restraint in PvP, perhaps casters classes should be forced to hold some worthwhile loot, Perhaps a diamond to *Channel* Spells though, or something like a lily pad or combination of flowers to cast root.

Of course basic spells like fireball wouldn't be effected, That would be extremely unfair to unfair to starting casters.

Fireball does 27 damage, while bolt does 30. So, 57 damage, not 80. While blinking around constantly with more then one fireball being thrown, mana is sucked away. With or without replenish.

I completely see your point and actually think it's an interesting suggestion. They need to have a regeant that doesn't disappear after use but rather just requires it to channel the "magic" through. Very cool. A diamond or a diamond hoe or something of the sort would be a great touch. It would be like a Wizard needing his staff to complete more complex spells.

BUT I don't think this is going to help his problem in any way, shape or form. If he wants to be more effective he is going to have to level up.

 

[Kalkyte]

God that whole thread was...lame.

I'll make a well written response later while not on my phone. For now I'm just going to say that I could own any non caster with root, fireball and replenish alone. Completely and utterly destroy with 3 skills out of what, 12?

Hollow kept saying that with smarts and skill wizards should be able to easily win 1v1s. Well I can moronically hit my root bind, line up a crosshair and right cllick to get a kill so....? No skill needed IMO.

Root is probably the stupidest skill in game. It has good intentions, to offset the lag hindrance that ranged classes have, but it just gives a free kill.

Even without root wizards still have a ton of skills that deal way too much damage. These skills don't have reagents and the man a they use is easily regained with replenish. The cooldowns are irrelevant since a wizard can just use all of his damage dealing skills in a chain and kill someone without having to reuse a skill.

 

[Zihara]

God that whole thread was...lame.

I'll make a well written response later while not on my phone. For now I'm just going to say that I could own any non caster with root, fireball and replenish alone. Completely and utterly destroy with 3 skills out of what, 12?

Hollow kept saying that with smarts and skill wizards should be able to easily win 1v1s. Well I can moronically hit my root bind, line up a crosshair and right click and do what it takes your smarts and skill to do.

Root is probably the stupidest skill in game. It has good intentions, to offset the lag hindrance that ranged classes have, but it just gives a free kill.

Even without root wizards still have a ton of skills that deal way too much damage. These skills don't have reagents and the man a they use is easily regained with replenish. The cooldowns are irrelevant since a wizard can just use all of his damage dealing skills in a chain and kill someone without having to reuse a skill.

I don't think you actually read what was posted. He doesn't want root in the game. Nearly all of what you said was arguing having root removed... When no one has disagreed with each other on that point. Seriously?

 

[Kalkyte]

But kainzo does....?

 

[Zihara]

But kainzo does....?

So reply on the proper thread? That one? This is concerning damage dealing moves...

 

[Kalkyte]

I got fireballed twice btw. so 54+30.

 

[AzenYumCha]

I thought I might jump in here.

Your points @HollowSith are decent. However, the majority of it is quite unbiased since you are a Mastered Wizard yourself. So, I believe you don't understand a different point of view.

May I ask, if you weren't a Wizard, how would you defeat one of he powerful arcane users?

Personally, With a combination of Root, Fireball and bolt - that basically cuts down a large amount of health, meaning that the target has basically lost a deal of HP before it actually got mobile for combat. You may say a 'lack of aim' with fireball, but if you had keybinds you could simultaneously launch within a short amount of time. Warmups are quite necessary for wizards.

 

[skittles32009]

i would just like to point out that while wizards do get root, for 8 seconds. geomancers also get deep freeze which is for 5 seconds, but still allows them to use fireball which give them a burst total of 11+11 + 25 minimum.

so why are you guys only complaining about root on wizards?

 

[HollowSith]

I thought I might jump in here.

Your points @HollowSith are decent. However, the majority of it is quite unbiased since you are a Mastered Wizard yourself. So, I believe you don't understand a different point of view.

May I ask, if you weren't a Wizard, how would you defeat one of he powerful arcane users?

Personally, With a combination of Root, Fireball and bolt - that basically cuts down a large amount of health, meaning that the target has basically lost a deal of HP before it actually got mobile for combat. You may say a 'lack of aim' with fireball, but if you had keybinds you could simultaneously launch within a short amount of time. Warmups are quite necessary for wizards.

Again, I as-well as all of you, HATE ROOT. Lol, please understand that I'd rather it not be in the game. An Ice attack to slow the target or forcepush would be a perfect replacement.

Being a level 55 Wizard I feel obligated to defend my class against people who don't know anything about it. I've played many classes on the test server and PVP each day vs. many opponents. Bolt can not be changed during the warm up or it renders it self useless. Kainzo has already tried that approach and has deemed 1 second long enough to get the casting feel. 1 second to cast, then another to execute the spell. 2 before direct damage.

I am aware that root+bolt+fireball does 57 health, but root does break on damage I hope ALL of you know. After the bolt you may run away if you wish or keep fighting. The rest is down to you dodging and working out your own strategies. I don't think you can even call it a root+bolt+fireball combo. It's a root+bolt. If you get hit by a fireball that's your fault.

Fighting a Wizard I agree is tricky. To kill them, get close. If your a Bard like Kalkyte, you should be able to kill me with ease. You don't need to get close, just run by with quiken, pulse and ice aura. If I start to run you know you win because you can catch up again with quiken and kill me. Root will do nothing because after the one bolt I can get off my fireballs will likely not hit him unless he is standing still/ walking.

Also I'm not making points, I'm re-stating facts to those that are unaware. Warm up times can NOT be lengthened. It renders the class unable to use its skills in PVP. Cool down time wouldn't be to bad, but it would make the class solely reliant on fireball. With the glitch with fireball it would be bad. I'm not entirely sure why people are so mad with Bolt. It has does 3 more damage then fireball does after burning. And the initial situation that has been posted is impossible. Through pure math it doesn't add up. Again, if he wants to fair better, become a high level spec so he actually has skills to use in combat.

The posts that are being made against Wizards seem to suggest you all are just trying to get an enemies class nerfed to the point of making it useless. Anyway possible. Shouting OP over and over without knowing the facts or without being spec'd (which isn't even half my level) isn't helping.

God that whole thread was...lame.

I'll make a well written response later while not on my phone. For now I'm just going to say that I could own any non caster with root, fireball and replenish alone. Completely and utterly destroy with 3 skills out of what, 12?

Hollow kept saying that with smarts and skill wizards should be able to easily win 1v1s. Well I can moronically hit my root bind, line up a crosshair and right cllick to get a kill so....? No skill needed IMO.

Root is probably the stupidest skill in game. It has good intentions, to offset the lag hindrance that ranged classes have, but it just gives a free kill.

Even without root wizards still have a ton of skills that deal way too much damage. These skills don't have reagents and the man a they use is easily regained with replenish. The cooldowns are irrelevant since a wizard can just use all of his damage dealing skills in a chain and kill someone without having to reuse a skill.

This post is hard to comment on. Seems like your just getting frustrated because your bad at PVP. If you want to test root, replenish and fireball. I'll gladly fund your efforts so you can master Wizard and only use those 3 skills to fight me. I've got plenty of friends that would fight you 1v1 as-well. So I call your bluff and challenge it. Good luck with only 3 skills vs. another fully spec'd class.

It seems your only really bashing root, which I can understand. It is OP. Though, this thread really isn't the place for it considering this is about Bolt/ megabolt. Which BTW, you can't even use one after another. You need to wait for mana regen. I think the flashiness of the moves have people thinking it's somehow better then it really is.

 

[Plasma78]

i don't mind getting pwned but with skills that 100% DONT miss, tad frustrating to say the least.
The cool down would be where to adjust, the warm up is fine i suppose but i did see effective combat at 2 seconds.
( not sure if that has changed or etc)

specced vs unspecs is going to have a differnce but not so much of one where the speeced class takes no damage.

I have played caster/wizard and even messed with it on test server.

the mana costs don't add up which is what i said in first post.

The spells bolt and mega NEVER miss. once cast its 100% chance of hitting.
( someone correct me if that is wrong)

The class needs tweaked, regardless, ie regents for bolt/megabolt etc.

As for fireball, if you can hit 3+ fireballs, there is: a) no lag b)your good at aiming and need to go ranger c) pc assited aiming ie cheating

Its why the ranger has a high arrow damage. they have to aim and hold it. maybe make fireball similar. want that high damage? let it build up to max damage fireball, you spam it it only does minimum damage with burn.

Root is bit retarded, no offense. perhaps change it to slow, or something that slows the player down alot. like being frozen? dunno.


Not trying to bash or over react about a class, this is more about a possible unintended side effect.
It was same with assassins blade, it was one shot killing players. not very fun for those ont he reciveing end
The caster class has been tweaked and re-tweaked for this map.
some have been bad, some have been good.

That is what makes this server DIFFERENT and AWESOME. It changes and flows, so all can enjoy the game. Its fun and challenging.

 

[Kalkyte]

Hollow I'm well aware of the fact that I suck at PvPing. Using that as your rebuttal is pretty lame haha. That's why I'm a bard (support). Also, focus on the spec. You can't blame everything on us (crying OP, not being specced, being bad at PvPing, etc.). Wizard IS too strong and it DOES need some tweaks. Defend your class to the point where it is balanced, but not overly nerfed. I see your opinion as removed root and replace with a weaker skill and everything is perfect. <-- that doesn't really resolve the issue of the guaranteed high damage output.

I don't think putting reagents on everything will work. They can still use them, they just need to fund it. Meaning a well funded wizard would still be too powerful. I'm thinking more along the lines of increased mana costs and/or decreased damage.

Warmups could work too. You'd just need to sprint hit them or have a skill like forcepush to get a melee class out of your face so that you can line up a shot. Obviously not 5 seconds but something reasonable that makes it both interrupt-able but also easy to avoid being interrupted.

I honestly don't see how you think my scenario of the 3 skills is unlikely. Against another wizard, no those 3 skills probably won't win. Against any melee class then yes, it will. They can't hit you while you can. Simple as that. And you can rinse and repeat due to replenish (and consume if that is still in game?). If the wiki is accurate then fireball cools down in under 2 seconds and root lasts 8. If you spam your bind you could potentially get 4 guaranteed fireball hits in 8 seconds. 4*27=108 > most specs max health or at least very close to it.

Root may break on hit as you say but in many PvP scenarios the opponents will have some space between them, giving the wizard ample time to root them before getting too close. Even if your class is ranged, root makes your ability to aim drop, (I usually spas out when rooted), and therefore it renders the ranged class useless too.

As a bard I would not be able to kill you. Pulse makes me walk, giving you time to get out of its radius. I don't have icy aura yet by I assume it's similar. If icy doesn't slow me down then it might work. If the wizard was stupid and just ran I would kill them eventually. However, if they used guerrilla tactics and ran, but also turned around and attacked sometimes I would loose. Every time I melee the fleeing wizard they would have a chance to turn and bolt/fireball me before I caught back up - doing that a few times would kill me.

And that's just me. What about other specs? Most likely the same result.

 

[Plasma78]

you left out the blink.

other then that.. covered all the good stuffs

as a melee class, i can fight a ranger and it comes down to a good fight. same with melee vs melee.
varies on terrain and who has party members etc.

I have cornered a fleeing wizard and he ran into a large mountain valley and was trapped by the land.
He had no choice but to turn and fight 2-3 coming at him.

He beat on me with a bukket before valiantly dying in combat. (major kudos for not combat recalling)

Any class that can deal beyond or close to max hp for a specced class is bit much, add ranged into it, the class becomes untouchable.

Using the keybinds speeds up the process of button mashing to button spamming to get the spell off.

Manaburn comes to mind for me, if you use megabolt or bolt to call down natures fury it should burn the caster of mana, ie use it at current cost, but the regen stops for 5 secs-ish, and cant cast spell for 3secs while this happens??
times are off, it would need tweaking.

These skill spells dont ever miss, ever, you can sit there and spam the button you bound to bolt/megabolt till it hits and turn and use another full on knowing its hit for 100% of its damage.

A ranger had to get space to draw the bow, hold it back to get max damage on it and then HIT the target, all while in combat. yeah, major props to them, and i cuss like a sailor when i get hit more then once. ( major kudos to a ranger i got into a fight with in town and they proceeded to gain ground and turn, shoot and do alot of damage on 2 vs 1.)

After thinking more on it, what @Kalkyte said makes alot of sense to me.

I don't think putting reagents on everything will work. They can still use them, they just need to fund it. Meaning a well funded wizard would still be too powerful. I'm thinking more along the lines of increased mana costs and/or decreased damage.

I really agree with this and it fits the current group combat effect. A wizard is a squishy support role, for adding damage, not for being main guns.

Magic already cuts thro any armor so that already give em edge on rest of the non-magic classes. I have to hack thro armor to get to the squishy bits, while magic bypasses it and hits for heart damage.

**Edit***

This isn't about trying to nerf a class that i may or may not hate. The assassins blade was doing nuts amount of damage and i agreed , it needed addressed. Anything in the game that can kill in one shot or two like that should ether be an Enderdragon or Kainzo.

 

[HollowSith]

Lol, honestly, I have to many against me on this. If you want to nerf the class into nothing, be my guest. I gave you all the facts and points I wished to. Kainzo has stated before he doesn't appreciate me restating my facts and points over and over. So I will stop, it almost looks like this has turned into a flame war... I could tell you the same thing over and over in different ways but that won't stop the people who want my class nerfed from complaining until Kainzo gives in. This server is great but one of the biggest problems is that everyone claims that every class they don't play is OP. If you can get enough friends to jump in you can get a class nerfed. I really don't think that just because a player is good at the class HE CHOSE he should be punished; with a nerf. Really, if the class gets a longer warm up, it's finished. It's been done and tested. I've said that 4 times now. You claim you can't win because of your warm up time.. I have warm ups on almost everything. Welcome to Mana based attacks. @ShizzDawgg is a GREAT bard and can 1v1 stomp me most times, again, this has been tested. If you can't beat me then it's because of your lack of knowledge for the class or maybe I'm better, who knows?

@Kalkyte I don't think those 3 skills are likely because I can't seem to kill anyone unless they are unspec'd with fireball. With or without root. Again, I'd love to see you do it. I'd be quite impressed. Considering your probably the only one who could. If you want, i'll fund it and you can fight my pal @Graink or someone similar.

@Plasma I'm not even going to start.

 

[Plasma78]

This server is great but one of the biggest problems is that everyone claims that every class they don't play is OP.

If you can't beat me then it's because of your lack of knowledge for the class or maybe I'm better, who knows?

I have played it, on 1.8.1 and on test server. I enjoyed it, it felt balanced, except blink, that was bit wonky for me.

I dont play it now cause i chose to suck it up as a hack n slash.

I am not picking on your skills as a wizard @HollowSith

so smile and go fireball some creepers

 

[Kalkyte]

I'm not flaming you (maybe a little last night haha) nor am I trying to nerf it to nothing. Just trying to find balance.

Also, I posted against buffing my own spec. I'm not trying to get an advantage or anything, I just truly believe wizards are unbalanced.