Suggestion Upcoming PvP party limits and concerns

[Delfofthebla]

One important thing to remember is townships cannot hurt each other with their offensive spells. So it really only debuffs support/healers as you will not be AOE damaging your townies even when they are not in your party.

I thought Kainzo took that out?

 

[what777]

I thought Kainzo took that out?

It is taken out of clans, not for towns.
Kinda strange if you ask me.

 

[Delfofthebla]

It is taken out of clans, not for towns.
Kinda strange if you ask me.

Gross.

 

[GangstaKl3n]

let the rage become a part of you

why are you not balance team frand

 

[Dakinara]

It is taken out of clans, not for towns.
Kinda strange if you ask me.

I do not understand this either. There are three scenarios that make sense to me:

1) Friendly fire on always for everything. Party, town, clan, doesnt matter, you can hurt and heal everyone targeted / within an aoe. Probably the most "skill based" system but would require a major re-work of many hero skills and therefore im assuming not feasible.

2) Friendly fire off for party, on for town / clan. If the devs are trying to promote 5v5 as the desired match up size, this would sort of make sense but also be a little goofy to acclimate to situationally. But it would certainly give organized 5 man parties a real chance against cluster / zerg groups who would probably just end up killing themselves lol.

3) Friendly fire off for party, town and clan. If the intent is to just nerf aoe support, then a five man group size limit with pvp flags off for town, clan and party makes sense. You can go and fight with your clan of 10+ people if thats your thing, but you need to think a little about how to organize groups to make the best of what support you have.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I do not understand this either. There are three scenarios that make sense to me:

1) Friendly fire on always for everything. Party, town, clan, doesnt matter, you can hurt and heal everyone targeted / within an aoe. Probably the most "skill based" system but would require a major re-work of many hero skills and therefore im assuming not feasible.

2) Friendly fire off for party, on for town / clan. If the devs are trying to promote 5v5 as the desired match up size, this would sort of make sense but also be a little goofy to acclimate to situationally. But it would certainly give organized 5 man parties a real chance against cluster / zerg groups who would probably just end up killing themselves lol.

3) Friendly fire off for party, town and clan. If the intent is to just nerf aoe support, then a five man group size limit with pvp flags off for town, clan and party makes sense. You can go and fight with your clan of 10+ people if thats your thing, but you need to think a little about how to organize groups to make the best of what support you have.

1 would be my preference if Minecraft were a "real" game, 3 is gross. 2 is my preference for the Herocraft situation.

How we had it in Bastion is best. FF off for parties, that's it. Towns / Guilds / Clans had nothing to do with it. For this map, you can simply tack on a raid system to accommodate more players if you wish, but regardless of party size, I do not like any sort of FF for towns / clans. It doesn't sit well with me at all.


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It's also very important and very relevant just how important it is for you to be able to kill your townmates. If friendly fire was not enabled for towns, Jimmydude would not have killed Sam 5000 times and made him leave Umbra to join TC.

Just think of what the server would have been like without this crucial part of history!

 

[Dakinara]

1 would be my preference if Minecraft were a "real" game, 3 is gross. 2 is my preference for the Herocraft situation.

But delf... you can help make it a real game. All we need is for you to spend hundreds of hours designing cool projectile / directional abilities like at the end of bastion, convince kainzo to implement them, and then have everyone bitch at you about all the changes they dont like. Then we can have friendly fire.

how can you pass that up? lol

 

[Delfofthebla]

But delf... you can help make it a real game. All we need is for you to spend hundreds of hours designing cool projectile / directional abilities like at the end of bastion, convince kainzo to implement them, and then have everyone bitch at you about all the changes they dont like. Then we can have friendly fire.

how can you pass that up? lol

Gee I dunno.

*Thinks back*...

...

...

...Man that sucked.


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Spoiler: Offtopic Rant

But in all honesty, it isn't Herocraft or the HC community that I really have issues with. It's Minecraft / Mojang. The lag issues, the buggy gameplay caused by that lag, the super wonky and overpowered vanilla PvP elements, the overabundance of exploits, the lack of client support for server mods, the rampant use of sketchy client mods and hacked clients, the requirement of Bukkit for any real plugin compatibility to occur. It all sucks and it all pisses me off. It makes the game super unenjoyable for me.

Much of that can be blamed on Server owners, Players, and possibly plugin developers, and a lot of the times those blames are not incorrect. But at the end of the day, if Mojang wasn't so shit none of it would be an issue in the first place.

Notch was not planning for his game to get huge. He was not planning on people putting so much time into the multiplayer. He was not planning on Players developing hundreds of plugins for his game. And even if he was, he wasn't experienced enough to do things right even if he had known. (That or I am horribly misinformed and he just plain old didn't give a shit.) I'm not saying that I have what it takes either, because I don't. But I don't have a game that prints money, nor do I have a suffering playerbase that is responsible for that game printing said money.

But Notch does have a game that prints money, and he has a company that can do his bitch work for him. There is absolutely no excuse for the above mentioned issues to continue. Yet they do.

I won't say I don't have my own problems with HC either, or the people involved in it, but the core reasoning for my lack of presence on HC is due to my frustration with the Minecraft game itself. If the issues I mentioned above were fixed in some magical update, I'd probably come back around. But it hasn't happened yet, and these have all been issues that existed from the beginning. Mojang is busy making Horses surf on Multiplayer and adding different colors of squares for people to nerdgasm over. They cannot be bothered with petty issues like hacks, server lag, or "player versus player game balance".

 

[Dsawemd]

Quote from Dsaw, page 4:

RPG is the adventure map

So why the hell are you even mad? 15 man raids on pvp objectives, and you dont LIKE it?

Unless I am mistaken, most of the fun top tier pvp will be around these objectives. They are going to be worthwhile targets and you can bring 14 friends!!!

The "Gank for Their Loot" style of pvp will be greatly reduced on the new map, as only foolhardy levelers will go to Neo-Haven to level when Neo-Shrine is identical for leveling without the pvp risk and inventories are going to transfer cross-worlds.

End quote

OH LOOK DSAW OP, 15 man parties for Conquest Objectives Incoming. Wait it out and practice your 5v5's until Adventure map gets added would be my advice

 

[Irishman81]

Quote from Dsaw, page 4:


So why the hell are you even mad? 15 man raids on pvp objectives, and you dont LIKE it?

Unless I am mistaken, most of the fun top tier pvp will be around these objectives. They are going to be worthwhile targets and you can bring 14 friends!!!

The "Gank for Their Loot" style of pvp will be greatly reduced on the new map, as only foolhardy levelers will go to Neo-Haven to level when Neo-Shrine is identical for leveling without the pvp risk and inventories are going to transfer cross-worlds.

End quote

OH LOOK DSAW OP, 15 man parties for Conquest Objectives Incoming. Wait it out and practice your 5v5's until Adventure map gets added would be my advice

The pvp objectives are on aegis, where the parties are 5 currently. This is why a lot of people are concerned.

 

[malikdanab]

The pvp objectives are on aegis, where the parties are 5 currently. This is why a lot of people are concerned.

I've seen some of the objectives for aegis, they are SMALL. A 10v10 would be impossible.

 

[Irishman81]

I've seen some of the objectives for aegis, they are SMALL. A 10v10 would be impossible.

Just because the objective itself is small doesn't mean 10v10s are impossible. The fighting can also occur around the objective.

 

[Templar_James]

No offense to towns with lots of people as I am also with 20+ people I believe that 5 man groups are for the best as it won't be a shit fest anymore with people just spamming aoe abilities to kill. Just saying

 

[werwew19]

No offense to towns with lots of people as I am also with 20+ people I believe that 5 man groups are for the best as it won't be a shit fest anymore with people just spamming aoe abilities to kill. Just saying

Count 20+ people then make a statement saying there are.

and its even a bigger shitfest now try some pvp for a bit when you get UNBANNED

 

[Templar_James]

Count 20+ people then make a statement saying there are.

and its even a bigger shitfest now try some pvp for a bit when you get UNBANNED

yo bro I got ban for placing a few dirt blocks my bad for not cleaning up. and what you talking about I'm in port royal we have 20+ people...

 

[Eldrylars]

So far, the only important question is, What is the developers goal of reducing party size?

We cannot know if it has helped or hurt until we know what it's trying to help or hurt.

Currently this is a major slap in the face to all support classes reducing their abilities by up to 50% which has not been rebalanced in any other way. To offensive classes with AOE, Necro, Wizard, Pyro, Beguiler, Shaman all got a buff by this as their spells still hit all enemies and no townies/group members. AOE damage classes are still able to hand out tremendous damage while the opposite side of the spectrum(Support classes) have been heavily diminished.

Now, anyone who watched the last tournament can see how support classes working together in a 5v5 in a "to the death tournament" can dominate, but take that same group into a open fight or into a fight where there could be 4 groups all doing AOE damage and the story could easily change.

 

[Dakinara]

So far, the only important question is, What is the developers goal of reducing party size?

We cannot know if it has helped or hurt until we know what it's trying to help or hurt.

Currently this is a major slap in the face to all support classes reducing their abilities by up to 50% which has not been rebalanced in any other way. To offensive classes with AOE, Necro, Wizard, Pyro, Beguiler, Shaman all got a buff by this as their spells still hit all enemies and no townies/group members. AOE damage classes are still able to hand out tremendous damage while the opposite side of the spectrum(Support classes) have been heavily diminished.

Now, anyone who watched the last tournament can see how support classes working together in a 5v5 in a "to the death tournament" can dominate, but take that same group into a open fight or into a fight where there could be 4 groups all doing AOE damage and the story could easily change.

I agree intent is important.

I love support and pretty much will only play support classes, but i still think the prevalence of aoe support is too much, while single target support abilities are relegated to pretty meh as group sizes increase, due to both difficulty in targeting and obvious math of aoe + more targets = win. I think the biggest hindrance is that there is always a self cast option on single target support skills, which makes targeting insane / basically impossible without macroing individual names. Until that is resolved in one of many options (give some support skills that cannot self target (think bloodmage bloodgift spell); give a "self cast-off" toggle button for support skills; replace many support targeting skills with projectiles, directional and ground targeting abilities), then i dont think the support classes will be as fullfilling to play as they could be, for me anyways.

 

[Eldrylars]

I agree intent is important.

I love support and pretty much will only play support classes, but i still think the prevalence of aoe support is too much, while single target support abilities are relegated to pretty meh as group sizes increase, due to both difficulty in targeting and obvious math of aoe + more targets = win. I think the biggest hindrance is that there is always a self cast option on single target support skills, which makes targeting insane / basically impossible without macroing individual names. Until that is resolved in one of many options (give some support skills that cannot self target (think bloodmage bloodgift spell); give a "self cast-off" toggle button for support skills; replace many support targeting skills with projectiles, directional and ground targeting abilities), then i dont think the support classes will be as fullfilling to play as they could be, for me anyways.

A long long time ago I suggested coding /skill castlock <player name> which all targetable positive spells would check before casting their normal way. If caslock was toggled all heals/.other would cast on the locked player. That way you could have hotkeys to switch between players instead of hotkeys for every spell for every player.

 

[Dakinara]

A long long time ago I suggested coding /skill castlock <player name> which all targetable positive spells would check before casting their normal way. If caslock was toggled all heals/.other would cast on the locked player. That way you could have hotkeys to switch between players instead of hotkeys for every spell for every player.

something like that would be fine too. Lots of options, i know the devs have tons of stuff on their plate but I hope this is something they consider revisisng at some point. I would be happy in the short term even if they just copied a version of bloodgift and gave it to every healer class (just make it relatively short cooldown since cant self target, pretty plz).

 

[Dsawemd]

dammit I was wrong again. I hate being a "Guide" when I don't know diddly about the new map.

Where are the objectives on Aegis? Gimme.