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Town theft... again

xpeterc1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
New York
The problem I see here, is that someone could say, "NUH UH! I LEFT THAT TOWN EARLIER! THEY JUST FORGOT TO TAKE ME OFF REGIONS BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE MIDNIGHT!" when caught.

Most people on this server decide for themselves when they are a part of one town or another, some will make arrangements to join a new town before leaving the old. Giving the powers that be in that town no time to remove said player from the regions before they can do damage. All of which gets around this little rule you are proposing. Nobody honors the 3 day rule anymore, it's a damn shame.

It's not easy to do what Seratt does now is it daring? ;)

-=THIS IS MY OPINION* DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS A DEFINITION THAT HOLDS WEIGHT=-
Well they are not part of the town and just abusing the region access again, back to the argument i was making.
-Even if they have region access they are abusing it for their own gain, because they are no longer part of the town, they should had notify a council member to take them off the region before they join a new town since it's their responsibility that they are leaving the town. To clarify as long as you are part of the region when you ask to join as a citizen, you stay a citizen until you are off the region. So that means you stay a citizen until you are removed from the region and if you were to join another town while under your first's town region that means you are a citizen of two towns which would violate the rules, so until you have no more region access from the first town we own your ass and you stay a citizen from the first town. Also does no one have morals these days?
 

dragonzero39

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Location
North America
I would like to point out that I in no way what so ever endorsed this members action, and he has been kicked from Kamino. I have no idea who thought this would be a good idea, seeing as I myself started a thread very similiar to this when this event happened to me. So I would like to apologize on behalf of my township for one ex-members actions.

-Farroes
Mayor of Kamino

Thank you for this Farroes
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
Staff member
Administrator
Guide
Wiki Team
Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
But the server rules say different :(
Dielan the rules may not state it but there are ALOT of un-written rules for this server.

Take the grandfather township rule for instance. try and find that written down in an official thread.
 

Shadownub

ICE ICE ICE!
Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Location
Spire
Warning: I'm expecting this to be a wall of text. The basic idea is that you should be hardcore, that the thief shouldn't be punished, that it's your fault if it happens, and that it's happened to me many times and that's allowed me to learn more about how I should and shouldn't be recruiting, and what works and doesn't, as well as finding a balance between security and population.

A lot of you heard yesterday about Orb_Of_Thor and the ragepunishment that followed our discovery of his betrayal. These things happen, and they do suck, but they're the reason that Spire and many other towns are now becoming very, very careful about their towns' recruitment process. In Spire we have the system of requiring a reccomendation from several lowranks or 1-2 mid-highranks within the town, after which we go and check out the user, see what we can find out about him, check his bans, make sure he's going to be a safe citizen, etc.. That doesn't mean that we don't recruit newcomers, it's just that they have to be trusted first, so we can't just recruit anyone. Even after all of this, we still do occasionally have our system foiled, like by Orb_Of_thor, who had reccomendations but didn't go through me before joining simply due to my own mistakes and lazyness. If I knew before what I know about him now, things would have been easier for me and, although we recovered everything he took and broke, we would never have had an issue. But it did happen.

All the same, while I say that I know what you guys mean and that I know how annoying it is to lose huge amounts of valuables for stuff like this - it is the fault of the town and I don't think, HeroCraft being a hardcore server, robbing your own town should be a bannable offence - if anything it makes towns more cautious about its recruitment and not able to just find any newcomer and force them to join, which is a little annoying. If you choose to recruit a citizen who has been in an enemy town before or who looks suspicious, and then don't give your chests proper protection in a guarded vault, LWCs or even just in the town hall like Mak said, that's not the thief's fault. If anything, it's yours. There are methods ofc that are illegal of getting into the town - griefing the town to get around, griefing the valuable blocks, and most importantly, using second accounts to join your town, which IS bannable. But it's your responsibility to watch over your town and make sure you're not recruiting thieves or murderers who are planning to weaken your town, whether it be by robbing your town, opening gates for raid parties, or stirring up rebellion within your citizens. If you want to look at it in a 'real life' point of view, look at it this way: In order to enter a country, you need a visa. Permanent living visas are only given to people who are able, useful and will be loyal for the country. In order to stop those people from turning into thieves, the police and the law exists. To add to that, each citizen has their own little security systems installed. When you let a thief into your town - you're giving that thief (In this case a newcomer, or a random who you've never met) a visa into your town. By giving him regions, you're giving him the power to get past those security systems. If your cits haven't noticed the user stealing from your town, as very nearly happened with orb_of_thor, you don't have anyone to enforce the law for you. Is that the thief's fault, or yours? Perhaps both, but it was caused by your lack of forethought about the situation. The thief will be punished, by your own people, your own lawkeepers, if you can catch him, but you're the one who's going to get the blame, because you gave the thief the power he needed to do what he did. And you're the one that your citizens are going to blame, much like a town's mayor will be blamed for lack of security in real life, if many of their town's people were robbed of all they had gained.

And how is it safer to live in the wilderness than in a town? When I'm crossing between towns or heading towards a Forward Operations Base that's been setup in the wild, every time I see a house and don't know the person who owns it - I go in and make sure that I take everything there, usually after breaking and replacing most of the walls to check for chests, and usually after finding large amounts of loot along the way so that I can survive at the Foward Operations Base or on my way to a town without needing further supplies. All these people have ALL of their work taken away just because a passerby decided to check out their house and take what they could. In a town, you have regioned chests, town hall regions, all of your citizens providing money/tax which you can use for LWCs AND more people to keep watch over the houses and chests and keep things safe. That's much, much safer than one lowlevel, unfortunate player who happens to get attacked by one a town's passing raid team, which could be as much as 10 people, who completely destroy all of their work. I don't know how many houses I've passed in the wilderness that have a sign telling me how much they hate the server after they've lost every posession that they've worked for. Quite frankly, if you think living in a town is unsafe compared to the wild, you should go and try it - if even one town's cits find you and find good loot in your house, the whole town is going to know soon.

That's just my 10 cents haha. If there are enough people who want town theft to be illegal, I suppose it'll happen, but as a user for whom it has happened to many times, I think it's an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and make sure that you're recruiting the right people for your town. By all means, let the newcomers stay in your inn until you know them well, and when you trust them, THEN let them join. Just saying that they shouldn't be punished for your mistakes.
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
Staff member
Administrator
Guide
Wiki Team
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Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Just saying You aren't wrong but that still doesn't change the fact that it is currently illegal.
both Kainzo and Aph stated this yesterday in /h :p
However atm there doesn't seem to be any punishment for breaking this rule
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
I agree with Shadohand's post 100%.

The way I see it: Your town is your team. Why would you recruit people to your town and allow them access to everything you claimed to have worked for when you know nothing about them? Why not get to know who you are trusting first. See what they are all about, and make an assessment after some obviously needed time. As a mayor, your jobs are to recruit trusted, valuable members. The ability to steal from your own town should be incentive enough to question who your recruiting and who you put in-charge of recruiting. If your incapable of this then why are you bothering to lead a town.

This all sounds like certain mayors are getting lazy. They want the power and pride of leading a town with none of the responsibility. When they get burned for it, they demand a change to continue on this downward spiral.

Stealing from your own town is dirty. Unclean. But making it banned removes the fun of getting to know people. It removes the fun of finding a town you like and can trust.

The fun on this server is making friends and making enemies. Your town is your team. And typically your team is built up of your friends. It's your job to take precautions for new comers. Plain and simple. Do your jobs.
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
Staff member
Administrator
Guide
Wiki Team
Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
See as a Mayor on the last map I was able to do that.
Due to me having the ability to create sub regions
Each Plot was a different sub region as well as new project areas so it became really easy to keep track of everything :p

but sadly I cannot do that anymore =[
 

milkmeister

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Well I am not part of this "mass trolling", but I do agree with what they are saying. Well, first off, I think that the discrimination against the TC's is ridiculous, sure we can hate them, and fight them, but we love to hate them, they are part of our lives and have every right to voice their opinions on this matter. Secondly, while the server shouldn't be a place where everyone lives in suspicion of one another, it is hardcore. This means a lot of things having to do with spawning items, and the damage amounts, as well as the commands we get, but it also means that we do what we need to do to survive. Part of being on this server is accepting risks, the risk that anyone can lie. People lie all the time on the server, and it is legal. It should be. I know that when I buy gold from someone that they may take the money and run, and that risk should be taken into account with townships. Just because you have a region doesn't mean no one can touch you, and mayors are becoming lazy with it. Just because you have the ability to prevent other players from entering parts of your town or stealing certain things doesn't mean that they are not allowed to. You have to use your asset (the region) to your advantage, not just call foul when someone tricks you or gets around it.

I think a town hall vault is the best option, and the suggestion I think is most productive. Once again, you have not only the town region, but the fact that you can ban anyone for stealing from the town hall. Why not make a vault where every cit. gets their own little room or something. That way, everyone can safely access their own stuff and then have a right to make a PE if something is stolen. While many mods/admins, say it is illegal, and I don't know what Kainzo and Aph are saying, Seratt says it is legal, so no one really knows as of for sure right now. So don't claim that it is legal or illegal, because we are talking about what it should be not what it is. Right now it is ambiguous, and if it is not on the official rules list, don't claim it's a rule. Mayors and citizens have no right to complain about these things, even though they have been doing so successfully, because they sat back and felt protected because of "the ring" and didn't do anything to protect their fortunes beyond that. Now that people have begun to exploit that loosened fear and security, instead of taking completely plausible steps to use the server rules about town halls to their advantage, in tandem with the regions, is completely ridiculous and lazy, yet they are being satisfied. It is time for town security reform and a rules meeting between staff members, until there is a definitive rules conclusion, go with the first option, or face the consequences that can follow.
 

RedKhan

Soulsand
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
The town hall vault idea is sound, I know I'll be suggesting this to my town.
(In event of town hall theft, it would be a guaranteed roll back, yeah?)

EDIT: Only just read the OP and following posts.

This is not a ban worthy offense, it's a freaking clever way of stealing from enemies using friends that have only just joined the server. If they are alternate accounts, that's bannable, but there does not seem to be any evidence to show that is the case.

As a victim of "In-Town Robbery" I know it's a pain, but the only people that are to blame are those that let the thief on the region, or those that did not take advantage of the systems currently in place (Town halls) that could have prevented it. It's also just one more reason to actually screen people before you recruit them into town (This also filters out those that won't last a week on the server).

Also, don't call somebody a troll just because they disagree with you, it's ridiculous.
 

xpeterc1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
New York
Warning: I'm expecting this to be a wall of text. The basic idea is that you should be hardcore, that the thief shouldn't be punished, that it's your fault if it happens, and that it's happened to me many times and that's allowed me to learn more about how I should and shouldn't be recruiting, and what works and doesn't, as well as finding a balance between security and population.

A lot of you heard yesterday about Orb_Of_Thor and the ragepunishment that followed our discovery of his betrayal. These things happen, and they do suck, but they're the reason that Spire and many other towns are now becoming very, very careful about their towns' recruitment process. In Spire we have the system of requiring a reccomendation from several lowranks or 1-2 mid-highranks within the town, after which we go and check out the user, see what we can find out about him, check his bans, make sure he's going to be a safe citizen, etc.. That doesn't mean that we don't recruit newcomers, it's just that they have to be trusted first, so we can't just recruit anyone. Even after all of this, we still do occasionally have our system foiled, like by Orb_Of_thor, who had reccomendations but didn't go through me before joining simply due to my own mistakes and lazyness. If I knew before what I know about him now, things would have been easier for me and, although we recovered everything he took and broke, we would never have had an issue. But it did happen.

All the same, while I say that I know what you guys mean and that I know how annoying it is to lose huge amounts of valuables for stuff like this - it is the fault of the town and I don't think, HeroCraft being a hardcore server, robbing your own town should be a bannable offence - if anything it makes towns more cautious about its recruitment and not able to just find any newcomer and force them to join, which is a little annoying. If you choose to recruit a citizen who has been in an enemy town before or who looks suspicious, and then don't give your chests proper protection in a guarded vault, LWCs or even just in the town hall like Mak said, that's not the thief's fault. If anything, it's yours. There are methods ofc that are illegal of getting into the town - griefing the town to get around, griefing the valuable blocks, and most importantly, using second accounts to join your town, which IS bannable. But it's your responsibility to watch over your town and make sure you're not recruiting thieves or murderers who are planning to weaken your town, whether it be by robbing your town, opening gates for raid parties, or stirring up rebellion within your citizens. If you want to look at it in a 'real life' point of view, look at it this way: In order to enter a country, you need a visa. Permanent living visas are only given to people who are able, useful and will be loyal for the country. In order to stop those people from turning into thieves, the police and the law exists. To add to that, each citizen has their own little security systems installed. When you let a thief into your town - you're giving that thief (In this case a newcomer, or a random who you've never met) a visa into your town. By giving him regions, you're giving him the power to get past those security systems. If your cits haven't noticed the user stealing from your town, as very nearly happened with orb_of_thor, you don't have anyone to enforce the law for you. Is that the thief's fault, or yours? Perhaps both, but it was caused by your lack of forethought about the situation. The thief will be punished, by your own people, your own lawkeepers, if you can catch him, but you're the one who's going to get the blame, because you gave the thief the power he needed to do what he did. And you're the one that your citizens are going to blame, much like a town's mayor will be blamed for lack of security in real life, if many of their town's people were robbed of all they had gained.

And how is it safer to live in the wilderness than in a town? When I'm crossing between towns or heading towards a Forward Operations Base that's been setup in the wild, every time I see a house and don't know the person who owns it - I go in and make sure that I take everything there, usually after breaking and replacing most of the walls to check for chests, and usually after finding large amounts of loot along the way so that I can survive at the Foward Operations Base or on my way to a town without needing further supplies. All these people have ALL of their work taken away just because a passerby decided to check out their house and take what they could. In a town, you have regioned chests, town hall regions, all of your citizens providing money/tax which you can use for LWCs AND more people to keep watch over the houses and chests and keep things safe. That's much, much safer than one lowlevel, unfortunate player who happens to get attacked by one a town's passing raid team, which could be as much as 10 people, who completely destroy all of their work. I don't know how many houses I've passed in the wilderness that have a sign telling me how much they hate the server after they've lost every posession that they've worked for. Quite frankly, if you think living in a town is unsafe compared to the wild, you should go and try it - if even one town's cits find you and find good loot in your house, the whole town is going to know soon.

That's just my 10 cents haha. If there are enough people who want town theft to be illegal, I suppose it'll happen, but as a user for whom it has happened to many times, I think it's an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and make sure that you're recruiting the right people for your town. By all means, let the newcomers stay in your inn until you know them well, and when you trust them, THEN let them join. Just saying that they shouldn't be punished for your mistakes.

I agree with you that this is Hardcore but it's too an extreme, it's a tactic but very underhand. You gain the towns trust and turn that against them, creating new openings to the town, leaving chest unprotected. This is turning into a new form of warefare where those with people who have legion to you in enemies towns will win. There is very little to protect against this unlike how you say, like a visa the countries checks your records however in our case, it was a recently created account from a player who happened to have a brother (that's what they say).
From this newly created account or identity, we were unable to find any accusation of that player and since we are open to people which we feel is the correct action to take for any town, we accept them into town and to grant them citizenship they have access to the town's region. There is no way to isolate that citizen to a part of the region, once they are citizen of any town they have free roam on that region.
Again, we were unable to find any acusation from this new player since the account was created recently, you going to check a baby when you go for a visa. In this case the new born baby happened to be a 10+ year old who had ill intent.
thus, researching them is very hard. With this open policy we feel to be transparent with our citizens and form trust, and if we were to only accept friends of friends then we wont really grow because we are missing out on those really outstanding new players who might want to join and potentially be your new best friend.

I agree that it should not be a banable offence because I look at it like the executions laws. we don't send people to the electric chair because they stole, or in our case we don't for killing someone either lol.
we should send hackers and those that do harm to the server.

I don't really know much about the wilderness safety but townships should be the ultimate form of protection without having people who have access to multiple accounts abuse the trust of another town.

I agree that it's a risk but I pointed out why research is not always an option, especially in the recent case in Orion.

-ill write more later but I am on my lunch break and going back to class.
 

dmil23

Obsidian
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
I don't see why you started this, you didn't even lose a lot of things. If that was all of your towns stuff put together then you need to move on. Most of the Tree Creepers I have I had set up in towns to steal all of their stuff and empty them out before we finally banded together. If it is not a written rule then we do it, just because someone misses a new rule in an alert because they weren't online doesn't mean that they should be banned for breaking it. Not their fault that they can't be on 24/7 like you or be thankful enough to see it.
 

Dasoren

A frightening Cactus!
Joined
May 5, 2011
Location
D.C.
WHY? why this tread over and over, i have seen it so many times............

the staff have said so many times, Townships are NOT going to keep your things safe all the time, why because people like you add random people to your region, its not the servers fault you add the person to the region, you did it, so you are at fault. if you need your stuff safe, get a LWC, i know you said not to say this but it needs to be said.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
Also, I talked to Gabizou about something similar after a member of my town decided to grief my inn -_-. It would make things a whole lot simpler if towns were granted 1-2 extra regions to place wherever they want. Maybe a discount?
 

xpeterc1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
New York
I understand and accept that it's the fault of the town. It's our fault that we accepted him in the first place even when there no way to verify his/her initial intention, that aside what is the verdict about this particular issue because like I said so many times, the person was an enemies who happened to have access to another account and infiltrate us using that method.

I have tried to get pass the point that I don't care if they raided us, I approved of that as hardcore but in this situation I just see it as an abuse of having multiple accounts available.
I agree that is should not be a banable offense.
Yes our open policy will change and we will utilize the use of the town hall, changing our views to a more stricter outlook will be for the better.
We have already agree to these things, that will prevent future problems similar to this one on some degree.

There is nothing else to say because as of now I have already streamlined from my idea LESS WALL OF TEXT.
We are now just repeating what has been said even when some points were clearly missed.

That being said I just happen to have a couple of friends and brothers who are dying to get an account.
Hopefully if I just leave out the wall of text people will actually see the point.
 

RedKhan

Soulsand
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
I think the current "List" for those that steal from their own town is enough, this whole thread seems to have stemmed from one town in particular having it done to them and not dealing with it very well. There was afterall, a very similar thread more than a month ago and the admins rightly said that stealing is legal everywhere but Zeal and Town halls.

Actually utilising your town halls purpose sounds like a MUCH better idea than making it bannable to steal from towns altogether (Which is effectively what you'd be doing, because who isn't smart enough to put a couple of blocks of dirt over their gold filled chest?)

In regards to screening new players - Perhaps your recruitment should evolve. It wouldn't be that hard to give the recruitee a trial period, living outside but near the town. Or even within the town minus the region access.
That wouldn't be an issue however if you kept your valued possessions in the town hall; then you could recruit as willy nilly as you liked.
 

RedKhan

Soulsand
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Besides, if people don't steal from towns they've tricked, how will the TC know who to recruit?!
 

xpeterc1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
New York
I have already agree that stealing is still legal, I am trying to address the method used on how the person was able to steal.
-the use of another account that an enemy could have access too.

There is nothing else to repeat so please,
-stealing ( been addressed)
-townhall use ( been addressed)
-Stricter citizen acceptance policy ( been addressed)
 

RedKhan

Soulsand
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Do you have reason to believe that the person that robbed you guys was using an alternate account?
It's very possible that they were just greedy.
 
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