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[Skill] Jump tweaks

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MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
kbye,gtfo,playclassb4ubitchgrassyass
this is just plain forum trolling. Playing a dragoon on the test server wont be any different... I'll still see other people spamming jump without a care in the world. Its like playing mortal combat with a spammer and then playing their same character. They still spam it and it shouldnt be that way.

On a side note - kind of interesting how everyone flames healers and says their heals should be nerfed to the ground without seeing how hard it is to play one and now when suggesting that an ability be slightly changed they all turn flipside over a skill that isnt as needed for combat survivability and demand that i play the class to see how important a skill is to survive ferocious mountains that other classes can already survive using other techniques...
 

Kalkyte

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
And back to the matter at hand...
So what should change?
-warmump
-cooldown
-safefall
-height/length of jump
-mana
and why might this balance it?

Edit: forgot mana.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
seeing players use jump for every occasion as an "oh shoot" button, watching them all spam jump for any and every occasion, and hearing quotes from people in even this very same forum to back up my observations isn't enough to formulate an opinion on the matter?

I don't need to make a dragoon and use jump to see what it does or see that its being spammed and abused. I also don't need a troll to tell me to keep my mouth shut on forums. If you have nothing better than to call me stupid and say my opinions dont matter, then leave.
 

malmenca

Diamond
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Im not calling you stupid or saying your opinions dont matter, I'm saying you don't have a proper understanding of jump. Its a multi-faceted skill to which it serves the purpose of the dragoon. If you have nothing better to say and dont have the understanding of a dragoon, then leave. Theres the d0or -------->
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
Megan, it seems like your argument is "people shouldn't," and that things should change to make people do what people should.
Not to commit myself one way or the other, but you can see how that would create opposition. Not to mention that Dragoon in general has been, ah, discussed at length.

Your original post compared Jump spammers to "...some idiot that randomly presses buttons and miraculously wins..."
But it takes skill and knowledge of your situation to use Jump to save you from fall damage. This, from my observation, appears to be something you don't quite understand- If you start your airtime using Jump, and land far below your starting point, you will still hurt yourself. If, however, you end your descent with Jump, you take less or no damage. Feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood something.

The fall damage issue looks like your biggest complaint, not really that people spam it during something like arena combat. Doing that only wastes your mana and your time, and if the opponent is wasting mana trying to hit them, that's at their discretion.
 

Kalkyte

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Alright look: I got into an arguement similar to this just last night. It ended with me pissed off (probably him too) and it getting soo out of hand that I had to ask Aph to remove our posts. I am trying to keep this thread on point because I don't want more occurances like that and because I think this is a legitament concern that we can all help develop.

So please learn from my mistake instead of making your own; keep your shit to yourselves or take it some where private.

I would like to see someone help to come up with a realistic solution to the problem that balances Dragoon without nerfing it too much.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
kbye,gtfo,playclassb4ubitchgrassyass
really? that pretty much says everything you just denied saying as well as trolled.

I don't need to play a dragoon to understand how it should be used and how it is being used by other players. If you want me to make a lvl 55 dragoon and come back to the forums in 10 minutes i can, but my position will still be the same. Jump is being spammed by 12 year old random button mashers and lacks the skill and finesse that a dragoon deserves in making awesome jumps instead of just random ones.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
If jump were nerfed, nobody would play dragoon. I certainly wouldn't. Spamming jump will just get you killed because you burn all your mana up. Perhaps it should cost more than 15 mana, but otherwise I think it's fine. You can't just pick up dragoon and start jumping around. It's not easy, it just looks easy. You still take damage from falling anyway, it just has to be a real fail jump.


Edit: Also, without mana to use impale and cleave, the dragoons are left without options. You should WANT your dragoon opponent to burn all his/her mana away.


You don't just button mash in Mortal Kombat and win. That's exactly what you want your opponent to do, that or spam the same move over and over because if you can dodge it once you dodge it EVERY time and victory is assured. Your anaolgy of buttonmashing to win at fighting games is moot in my opinion, because your skill in using what you have(character selection in that case, class selection in this case) to counter everything else out there is how you play these games.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Looks like I need to chip in here.

First off, above all else, the difficulty of the fight depends less on the power of the class and more on the skill of the opponent. Case in point, as a mid-30s Dragoon, I took on and beat a 50 Dragoon and a 50 Ninja simultaneously because I knew how to fight each class, and how to use the terrain that was available to me. Also, ShadoWall555 is a terrible Dragoon, so that had something to do with it.

Dragoons are in an interesting position. We're very much a specialized class, moreso than the other warrior classes. Paladins can soak up insane amounts of damage, but have Soulfire, and can revive. They also do moderate damage when up close. Dreadknights have a variety of skills available that make them more versatile overall than just doing damage, which they have a solid ability to do. Their DoT can make the difference between a win and a loss, and their defensive ability allows them to stick around in a fight, becoming very valuable to group fights. Samurai have the ability to kick out damage and still be able to survive getting knocked around, and also have a DoT.

Dragoons, on the other hand, are a utility class. Honestly, a good Dragoon is the cheapest warrior class to play by far, as our weapons only need one material, we only have one piece of diamond armor (leggings instead of chest), and we have the ability to disengage to preserve our stuff. In combat, our entire class is built around mobility. In combat, jumping is a good way to start a fight (especially if Quake gets implemented properly), but isn't my first choice, as it burns up mana that could be used for a disarm. I only use this if going against a caster or a ranger. The reasoning for this is simple: We have no ranged offense or defense. We get Impale, which lets us hit about four squares away, and slows a target. That's our only offensive ability, and it only hits for 14, with a mana cost that takes away a jump opportunity. We hit for seven damage, which is more than Paladins and Dreadknights, but we have no other offensive capabilities, so it's difficult for us to bring a high defense target down.

The combat dynamic for a Dragoon is very similar to that of a caster: A Dragoon that runs out of mana is fucked, and we don't have consume. Everything we do requires mana. Jump (Superjump even moreso) costs mana. Disarm costs mana. Impale costs mana. Charge and cleave are irrelevant. Basically, you have 100 mana, which gives you roughly six ability uses (counting in fight recharge). That's a rough balancing act, especially against ranged classes. Against a ranged class, you HAVE to close the gap, so that means at least one jump, often two (with three seconds in between), and an impale to keep them close. Beat on them as much as you can, and if they're not dead when you're done, retreat to recover mana and then re-engage. This, of course, all relies on not getting slowed down, rooted, or DoTed, and every class has at least one of those abilities in some form. If one of those happen, you're in trouble. Dragoons take time to kill their targets. Our mobility is what allows us to keep our opponents close enough for long enough to do so. Without that, we have all the offensive ability of crafters. Other classes balance their mana between damage and utility. We balance mana on staying mobile long enough to survive the fight, even if that means we have to retreat, recover, and re-engage.

In conclusion, Jump is far from just something extra given to a class that can stand on its own. Jump, and our mobility, are the core of our class. If you played our class, you'd see that. If you're getting your ass handed to you by Dragoons, study and use the abilities of your class to counter them, not tell us what needs nerfed with ours.
 

MeganPerk

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Megan, it seems like your argument is "people shouldn't," and that things should change to make people do what people should.
Not to commit myself one way or the other, but you can see how that would create opposition. Not to mention that Dragoon in general has been, ah, discussed at length.

Your original post compared Jump spammers to "...some idiot that randomly presses buttons and miraculously wins..."
But it takes skill and knowledge of your situation to use Jump to save you from fall damage. This, from my observation, appears to be something you don't quite understand- If you start your airtime using Jump, and land far below your starting point, you will still hurt yourself. If, however, you end your descent with Jump, you take less or no damage. Feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood something.

The fall damage issue looks like your biggest complaint, not really that people spam it during something like arena combat. Doing that only wastes your mana and your time, and if the opponent is wasting mana trying to hit them, that's at their discretion.
You have hit the nail on the head. I don't agree with people simply jumping mid-air while falling to save themselves from everything. I also don't agree with players simply being able to spam jump to test a building's defenses without any worries of fall damage if their test proves wrong. Making dragoons immune to fall damage just sounds stupid, so making them take half as much damage as a passive skill just seems alot better. Also, I think it would be cool if a dragoon manages to jump to an object mid-air to save themselves from falling the full distance. THAT requires finesse and mastering the jump.

Waiting until ur almost at the ground and then jumping just seems like a cheap saving throw for a minimal mana cost on a skill that is used all too often. Spicing up the skill some and getting rid of all the 12 year old button spammers on one class so that they diversify on other classes is what I am hoping for.
 

Dielan9999

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Location
Temple of Melonmancy
You have hit the nail on the head. I don't agree with people simply jumping mid-air while falling to save themselves from everything. I also don't agree with players simply being able to spam jump to test a building's defenses without any worries of fall damage if their test proves wrong. Making dragoons immune to fall damage just sounds stupid, so making them take half as much damage as a passive skill just seems alot better. Also, I think it would be cool if a dragoon manages to jump to an object mid-air to save themselves from falling the full distance. THAT requires finesse and mastering the jump.

Waiting until ur almost at the ground and then jumping just seems like a cheap saving throw for a minimal mana cost on a skill that is used all too often. Spicing up the skill some and getting rid of all the 12 year old button spammers on one class so that they diversify on other classes is what I am hoping for.


I still die from over jumping. I don't see the issue here. You can still die from falling when you make a bad jump.


EDIT: Of course, those were all from high places into low places, like from tree tops into valleys, or from hills into caves, and buildings onto the ground. Using jump for other purposes is merely utility.
 

Kalkyte

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
I read it and agree with a lot of it. However, it seems like you are thinking purely from a warrior stand point. Sure as a DK I could win or at least come close to winning vs. one of the best dragoons on the server, but that doesn't mean another spec can. Relying on ranged attacks to kill a jumping dragoon is impossible, for example. But maybe that just balances the overall game?

Also, they are cheap to maintain, which makes them even better haha. Not sure why you brought that up while defending it haha.
 
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