Bug Ninja's Backstab

[Pugglez_]

I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been bug reported yet, as it is pretty game breaking. This was tested on Visions btw.

Currently, Backstab deals an additional 264% damage to a target WITHOUT sneaking behind their backs. An deals an additional 54% damage to a target WHILE sneaking behind their backs. It's still broken either way, if it is 264% while sneaking and 54% without sneaking.

This deals 283 damage to a person with no leather and 70 damage to Paladin armor WITHOUT sneaking per hit. Sounds pretty broken, eh?

Now, I did the Math and the description and scaling in the wiki for Ninja is updated correctly.

When attacking from behind with your sword or shears, you do (11 % per agility point) more damage. While sneaking your attacks are more precise and deal an additional (13.25 % per agility point) more damage.

11 % per AGILITY POINT ???????????????????
11 x 24 = 264%

Also, yes even though this was tested in visions, it is the same on live. Tested it out already.

@Kainzo

 

[Irishman81]

I honestly think until the custom items are in that increase agility, backstab should just increase left click damage by a set amount and not a ridiculous percent.

 

[xMJay]

leather armor casters get four shot

208 damage through full leather armor with shears


Also the sneak bonus doesn't actually add to the total damage. The damage modifier replaces the original backstab bonus. It does not augment it.

 

[johnnjlee]

Ninjas depend on getting backstabs now a days, otherwise they usually loose the fight. To counter this, just keep them in your sights and don't let them hit you from behind. When they smoke bomb, just run away, don't try to find them (that's a good way to get killed). In a fight against a caster that knows I'm a ninja I get in about 3-4 backstabs max, against melee, I can only squeeze in about one max. Its not op if your smart enough to keep a ninja in front of you.

 

[Irishman81]

Ninjas depend on getting backstabs now a days, otherwise they usually loose the fight. To counter this, just keep them in your sights and don't let them hit you from behind. When they smoke bomb, just run away, don't try to find them (that's a good way to get killed). In a fight against a caster that knows I'm a ninja I get in about 3-4 backstabs max, against melee, I can only squeeze in about one max. Its not op if your smart enough to keep a ninja in front of you.

Classes like casters/healers/other rogues can't afford to just "keep the ninja in front of you" They need to move and maneuver around to get their skills off successfully, if they have to face the ninja head on they will lose, every time.

 

[LordZelkova]

Ninjas depend on getting backstabs now a days, otherwise they usually loose the fight. To counter this, just keep them in your sights and don't let them hit you from behind. When they smoke bomb, just run away, don't try to find them (that's a good way to get killed). In a fight against a caster that knows I'm a ninja I get in about 3-4 backstabs max, against melee, I can only squeeze in about one max. Its not op if your smart enough to keep a ninja in front of you.

It doesn't matter.
No class should have the ability to 4 shot a fully geared class.
Ninja has always been a cool concept, hard to implement well class. But dealing 208 damage to a fully protected caster is way too much.

 

[Pugglez_]

Ninjas depend on getting backstabs now a days, otherwise they usually loose the fight. To counter this, just keep them in your sights and don't let them hit you from behind. When they smoke bomb, just run away, don't try to find them (that's a good way to get killed). In a fight against a caster that knows I'm a ninja I get in about 3-4 backstabs max, against melee, I can only squeeze in about one max. Its not op if your smart enough to keep a ninja in front of you.

No, no, no. You don't get the point. Even before the Ninja buffs this recently, Ninja could still actually do some damage, at least to casters and other rogues. EVEN without backstabbing.

Like I posted above, the bug is that it is dealing game breaking damage, that is capable of 4 shotting rogues/casters with backstab, and also that you could deal this much dmg(200+ to leather armor) WITHOUT sneaking.

Also, PvP against Ninja with the way you described it is much different than that.

 

[johnnjlee]

Classes like casters/healers/other rogues can't afford to just "keep the ninja in front of you" They need to move and maneuver around to get their skills off successfully, if they have to face the ninja head on they will lose, every time.

Well classes like wizard can blink away, necro can web and run and their dots keep back-flip from executing properly, disciples can force push and pull, I'll admit clerk will fail against a ninja but won't all classes beat it mono a mono? Ranger can grapple hook (although not as reliable) and even go toe to toe with a ninja in melee for a short time because all the damage comes from backstab, beguiler can always cause a ninja to drift and will make it die very easily because of that, runeblade can just straight up destroy a ninja mono a mono along with dragoon, bard doesn't go well mono a mono either. There is a counter for ninja in almost everything, you just got to know when to play your cards and what one from your hand to play.

 

[xMJay]

Well classes like wizard can blink away, necro can web and run and their dots keep back-flip from executing properly, disciples can force push and pull, I'll admit clerk will fail against a ninja but won't all classes beat it mono a mono? Ranger can grapple hook (although not as reliable) and even go toe to toe with a ninja in melee for a short time because all the damage comes from backstab, beguiler can always cause a ninja to drift and will make it die very easily because of that, runeblade can just straight up destroy a ninja mono a mono along with dragoon, bard doesn't go well mono a mono either. There is a counter for ninja in almost everything, you just got to know when to play your cards and what one from your hand to play.

The one v one matchups mean nothing. As cleric I could beat ninja with it's current backstab. What you really have to consider is that in teamfights and ninja can work off paladin and berserker stun and insta kill any squishy.

 

[johnnjlee]

The one v one matchups mean nothing. As cleric I could beat ninja with it's current backstab. What you really have to consider is that in teamfights and ninja can work off paladin and berserker stun and insta kill any squishy.

Well if you divine stun some one in a teamfight and two people are beating away at some one they are going to fall no matter what.

 

[xMJay]

Well if you divine stun some one in a teamfight and two people are beating away at some one they are going to fall no matter what.

not true at all

 

[Kainzo]

Just to note: this isnt a "bug" persay - it was decided to have this increased by the balance team.
"4 shotting a class" -- I actually think this is something that should/could happen if things align. While we do want to keep combat slowed down a tad, we definitely dont want melee swings 4 shotting. So either we need a cooldown on the chance of proccing backstab damage or to rethink how it is handled.

Hitting a target from behind with the Backstab passive means around 260-300% damage increase. This at the moment, is intended.

 

[Pugglez_]

Well classes like wizard can blink away, necro can web and run and their dots keep back-flip from executing properly, disciples can force push and pull, I'll admit clerk will fail against a ninja but won't all classes beat it mono a mono? Ranger can grapple hook (although not as reliable) and even go toe to toe with a ninja in melee for a short time because all the damage comes from backstab, beguiler can always cause a ninja to drift and will make it die very easily because of that, runeblade can just straight up destroy a ninja mono a mono along with dragoon, bard doesn't go well mono a mono either. There is a counter for ninja in almost everything, you just got to know when to play your cards and what one from your hand to play.

But that doesn't mean it should keep a 200+ dmg backstab to a person near leather armor value without even having to sneak. And just because classes have some skills that make it seem like it can counter the ninja pretty easily on paper, does not mean it can easily beat it without taking decent damage. You recently joined December last year and I've looked up your profile(1 neutral kill, 5 deaths). From this I can tell that you aren't really experienced in PvP. It may seem like a class can easily counter a class from looking up their skills, but actual PvP with those classes are different most of the time.

 

[Irishman81]

Well classes like wizard can blink away, necro can web and run and their dots keep back-flip from executing properly, disciples can force push and pull, I'll admit clerk will fail against a ninja but won't all classes beat it mono a mono? Ranger can grapple hook (although not as reliable) and even go toe to toe with a ninja in melee for a short time because all the damage comes from backstab, beguiler can always cause a ninja to drift and will make it die very easily because of that, runeblade can just straight up destroy a ninja mono a mono along with dragoon, bard doesn't go well mono a mono either. There is a counter for ninja in almost everything, you just got to know when to play your cards and what one from your hand to play.

I'm sorry but I don't think you have been here long enough to know what you're saying

 

[LordZelkova]

Well classes like wizard can blink away, necro can web and run and their dots keep back-flip from executing properly, disciples can force push and pull, I'll admit clerk will fail against a ninja but won't all classes beat it mono a mono? Ranger can grapple hook (although not as reliable) and even go toe to toe with a ninja in melee for a short time because all the damage comes from backstab, beguiler can always cause a ninja to drift and will make it die very easily because of that, runeblade can just straight up destroy a ninja mono a mono along with dragoon, bard doesn't go well mono a mono either. There is a counter for ninja in almost everything, you just got to know when to play your cards and what one from your hand to play.

Blink: Actually a decent escape no argument
Web: You're more likely to web yourself too, unless you're using name binds
The Force: Backflip. Also, would require name binds or not being burst down before you cast
Grapple: Go ahead, turn around to shoot your grappling hook.
Guiler: Land your piggify's and beguile and you're fine.
RB: yeah, runes will wreck a ninja usually (Though this match up depends on the player)
Goon: Eh. The armor+Jump means it has the advantage but meh. Goon could lose.
Bard: The only chance a bard has is praying it can get an accelerando off to get away. Bard cannot 1v1 (This makes sense as it IS a support class)

As white said, just cause a skill *can* counter doesn't mean you auto-win.

 

[Pugglez_]

Just to note: this isnt a "bug" persay - it was decided to have this increased by the balance team.
"4 shotting a class" -- I actually think this is something that should/could happen if things align. While we do want to keep combat slowed down a tad, we definitely dont want melee swings 4 shotting. So either we need a cooldown on the chance of proccing backstab damage or to rethink how it is handled.

Hitting a target from behind with the Backstab passive means around 260-300% damage increase. This at the moment, is intended.

Why? This is pretty unbalanced. I don't know what the Balance Team was on when they decided this, but this is pretty unbalanced. Do note that it is proccing 200+ dmg Backstab WITHOUT sneaking. It may seem like it is hard to "Backstab" someone, but it is pretty easy. For kiters(mainly casters/healers), they are kiting and obviously have their backs on their enemy most of the time. For Melee, you just have to move around a lot and through them to proc the backstabs.

 

[johnnjlee]

But that doesn't mean it should keep a 200+ dmg backstab to a person near leather armor value without even having to sneak. And just because classes have some skills that make it seem like it can counter the ninja pretty easily on paper, does not mean it can easily beat it without taking decent damage. You recently joined December last year and I've looked up your profile(1 neutral kill, 5 deaths). From this I can tell that you aren't really experienced in PvP. It may seem like a class can easily counter a class from looking up their skills, but actual PvP with those classes are different most of the time.

Ever since the arena update it's been arena every day, I think I have a pretty good idea of how to play against players and what to watch out for.

 

[LordZelkova]

I'm sorry but I don't think you have been here long enough to know what you're saying

I think everyone can offer one different side of an argument.
You both simply look at it differently.

He sees the skill makeups and how they're designed

You see how the player implement them and use them.

 

[johnnjlee]

Blink: Actually a decent escape no argument
Web: You're more likely to web yourself too, unless you're using name binds
The Force: Backflip. Also, would require name binds or not being burst down before you cast
Grapple: Go ahead, turn around to shoot your grappling hook.
Guiler: Land your piggify's and beguile and you're fine.
RB: yeah, runes will wreck a ninja usually (Though this match up depends on the player)
Goon: Eh. The armor+Jump means it has the advantage but meh. Goon could lose.
Bard: The only chance a bard has is praying it can get an accelerando off to get away. Bard cannot 1v1 (This makes sense as it IS a support class)

As white said, just cause a skill *can* counter doesn't mean you auto-win.

I agree, however those extra seconds can mean the difference between a win or a loose.

 

[Pugglez_]

I think everyone can offer one different side of an argument.
You both simply look at it differently.

He sees the skill makeups and how they're designed

You see how the player implement them and use them.

Yeah, that was what I was telling him. It may seem what it seems like on paper, but it is different most of the time in an actual PvP situation.