Suggestion Balance Changes

[pure_autism]

Ok children it's math time.
Lets assume the Pyro has 30 intellect (average for pyros) and 30 strength (above average for pyros) and they are attacking a squishy squishy necro with only 30% damage reduction.
The Pyro lands great combustion
181.25 damage
The Pyro Chaos Orbs you
146.25 damage
You eat a dark bolt (still stunned by the way)
95 damage
You get enveloped in a Dragon's Breath
112.5 damage
and the whole time they Pyro is relentlessly wailing on you with their gold tier weapon
268 damage reduced by 30% = 183 damage

So after this violent mauling you have taken 718 damage, but wait, this is actually not possible. You see all these skills add up to 1150 stamina, and a Pyro only has 1000 stamina. Assuming the Pyro has 15 endurance (average) thats still 1050 stamina. So one spell will have to go.
And lets also remember that a Pyro has to be full stamina at the start of this rotation with all of their skills off cooldown meaning either
A: you got jumped (in which you are screwed anyways)
B: he hasn't done any damage to you up to this point
So lets take dark bolt out of this rotation meaning you are actually taking around 623 damage

So under picture perfect conditions where the stars are aligned in a pyromancer's favor yes they can six heart you, but if you let yourself get wombo comboed this hard you deserve to loose 6 hearts in 2 seconds.

Every class in the game has a way to interrupt or negate the damage from this combo (in the necromancer example, just use harmshield to reduce the damage to 436, this is the same as bolt + fireball + iceball.) So when you see the pyromancer warming up for something, I can bet you 100s that he is trying to explode you, just use your class' interrupt or defensive cooldown to stop it from happening.

Go math. *high five*

 

[RShooter2000]

Here's my experience with Ninja last map, and why I think it's underpowered.

Ninja vs Paladin = Loss
Ninja vs DreadKnight = Loss
Ninja vs Berserker = Loss
Ninja vs Dragoon = Loss
Ninja vs Wizard = Win
Ninja vs Necromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Beguiler = Loss
Ninja vs Pyromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Shaman = Win
Ninja vs Druid = Win
Ninja vs Cleric = Win
Ninja vs Disciple = Loss
Ninja vs Bloodmage = Win
Ninja vs Ranger = Win
Ninja vs Bard = Loss
Ninja vs Runeblade = Loss

These are from a 1 vs 1 perspective, if you were to sneak up on some of these classes, the results would be more wins.

Ninja just doesn't seem able to kill any other melee heavy classes, it can't kill any warriors, it can possibly kill a Pyromancer, but the Pyromancer has to miss their combo. Beguiler has so much CC and kiting ability it's not fun to fight them 1 vs 1, but if you were to take them by surprise it would be easy to kill them. Disciple is just a pain in the ass to fight no matter what, especially @TrueCorruptor cause he's good at Disciple. Bard can be tanky and do a decent amount of damage.
Runeblade is squishy but does so much damage it's hard to beat them without sneaking up on them. Necromancer honestly I feel has the best kiting and so therefore is annoying to fight and usually ends up in really close fights.

I think Ninja just needs to be able to contend with these classes a bit better, especially warrior classes.

My suggestion is add a skill called stab. This skill is basically piercing strike, but will be scaled off of 50% of the targets weapon damage, this is a skill more focused on killing warriors.

Skill: Stab
Mana Cost: 0
Stamina Cost: 250
Warmup: Instant Cast
Cooldown: 3.5 seconds
Skill Description: You stab your target within (4 Blocks) with your sword or shears dealing 50% of the targets weapon damage. This skill bypasses armor.

Trying to use this skill against casters wouldn't do much and would result in a waste of stamina.

 

[Egorh]

@Trazil you face palming a bunch of posts adds nothing to the discussion. Why is it facepalm worthy? Why do you think those ideas/comments are unworthy of the mighty Trazil

 

[Dakinara]

personally im not a fan of classes designed around "blowing someone up" in a short stun or other crowd control effect, but i know it can be difficult to make 16+ classes feel unique. I think there would be less need for stuns and hard crowd control if there were more short duration snares or other movement reductions to help with the nature of minecraft kite-o-mania.

 

[Egorh]

For all the Pyromancer talk

When I was playing Pyromancer GreatCombustion was just a tool to land an extra ChaosOrb and some more auto attacks. It went GreatCombustion->ChaosOrb->ChaoticStrength (no stamina cost). Pyro's biggest problem for me were the stamina costs; if you wanted to use all the possible skills in the stun duration you could, but you would be completely drained of stamina. Being out of stamina is a massive issue for any melee class, Pyromancer included. When you can't run you can't keep up with your target, they can strafe around you easily to out melee you or the kiting class can just get the distance needed.

Not only are all of Pyro's damaging skills skill shots they also all have a stamina cost. Missing a ChaosOrb is a lot more than just missing that damage. You wasted that 300 stamina and 100+ mana to teleport yourself somewhere you did not want to be (probably).

Missing GreatCombustion will normally cost you the fight because it is where you can land those hard to hit skills. It may be easy to hit in some situations but in any kind of group fight where everyone is running around you can easily miss the stun. When we ganked someone last map while I was Pyro I was busy trying to land a stun or skillshot while they knocked the person around making it close to impossible for me to land something.

As Delf has stated before GreatCombustion is very hard to hit on someone who is running away due to the short range (you might be in range but when you start to use it you get that slow and then they end up being out of range). It is not meant to be a skill used on someone who is running away, it is meant for the people that are coming at you.

Here's my experience with Ninja last map, and why I think it's underpowered.

Ninja vs Paladin = Loss
Ninja vs DreadKnight = Loss
Ninja vs Berserker = Loss
Ninja vs Dragoon = Loss
Ninja vs Wizard = Win
Ninja vs Necromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Beguiler = Loss
Ninja vs Pyromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Shaman = Win
Ninja vs Druid = Win
Ninja vs Cleric = Win
Ninja vs Disciple = Loss
Ninja vs Bloodmage = Win
Ninja vs Ranger = Win
Ninja vs Bard = Loss
Ninja vs Runeblade = Loss

These are from a 1 vs 1 perspective, if you were to sneak up on some of these classes, the results would be more wins.

Ninja just doesn't seem able to kill any other melee heavy classes, it can't kill any warriors, it can possibly kill a Pyromancer, but the Pyromancer has to miss their combo. Beguiler has so much CC and kiting ability it's not fun to fight them 1 vs 1, but if you were to take them by surprise it would be easy to kill them. Disciple is just a pain in the ass to fight no matter what, especially @TrueCorruptor cause he's good at Disciple. Bard can be tanky and do a decent amount of damage.
Runeblade is squishy but does so much damage it's hard to beat them without sneaking up on them. Necromancer honestly I feel has the best kiting and so therefore is annoying to fight and usually ends up in really close fights.

I think Ninja just needs to be able to contend with these classes a bit better, especially warrior classes.

My suggestion is add a skill called stab. This skill is basically piercing strike, but will be scaled off of 50% of the targets weapon damage, this is a skill more focused on killing warriors.

Skill: Stab
Mana Cost: 0
Stamina Cost: 250
Warmup: Instant Cast
Cooldown: 3.5 seconds
Skill Description: You stab your target within (4 Blocks) with your sword or shears dealing 50% of the targets weapon damage. This skill bypasses armor.

Trying to use this skill against casters wouldn't do much and would result in a waste of stamina.

Although another skill would be cool Ninja already has plenty of skills. When I was playing Ninja my spots for binding stuff on my keyboard was practically full. But giving something to Ninja that allows them to deal with those tanky enemies is what it needs. I personally would rather have the skill scale off of armor weight or health (not weapon damage) because the warriors do not always have high weapon damage. Paladin's and Dreadknight's are fairly low, and Berserker's melee damage is only high when they are low.


For Necromancer

Another class that you would need to rework to 'fix'. It is in the same boat as Druid (except maybe a little less). You put your DOTS on then you run around and use Drainsoul. A few number changes are not going to fix that issue.

 

[C4ruso]

Here's my experience with Ninja last map, and why I think it's underpowered.

Ninja vs Paladin = Loss
Ninja vs DreadKnight = Loss
Ninja vs Berserker = Loss
Ninja vs Dragoon = Loss
Ninja vs Wizard = Win
Ninja vs Necromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Beguiler = Loss
Ninja vs Pyromancer = Loss
Ninja vs Shaman = Win
Ninja vs Druid = Win
Ninja vs Cleric = Win
Ninja vs Disciple = Loss
Ninja vs Bloodmage = Win
Ninja vs Ranger = Win
Ninja vs Bard = Loss
Ninja vs Runeblade = Loss

These are from a 1 vs 1 perspective, if you were to sneak up on some of these classes, the results would be more wins.

Ninja just doesn't seem able to kill any other melee heavy classes, it can't kill any warriors, it can possibly kill a Pyromancer, but the Pyromancer has to miss their combo. Beguiler has so much CC and kiting ability it's not fun to fight them 1 vs 1, but if you were to take them by surprise it would be easy to kill them. Disciple is just a pain in the ass to fight no matter what, especially @TrueCorruptor cause he's good at Disciple. Bard can be tanky and do a decent amount of damage.
Runeblade is squishy but does so much damage it's hard to beat them without sneaking up on them. Necromancer honestly I feel has the best kiting and so therefore is annoying to fight and usually ends up in really close fights.

I think Ninja just needs to be able to contend with these classes a bit better, especially warrior classes.

My suggestion is add a skill called stab. This skill is basically piercing strike, but will be scaled off of 50% of the targets weapon damage, this is a skill more focused on killing warriors.

Skill: Stab
Mana Cost: 0
Stamina Cost: 250
Warmup: Instant Cast
Cooldown: 3.5 seconds
Skill Description: You stab your target within (4 Blocks) with your sword or shears dealing 50% of the targets weapon damage. This skill bypasses armor.

Trying to use this skill against casters wouldn't do much and would result in a waste of stamina.

against Beguiler and Necro loss? you are just bad than

 

[Egorh]

against Beguiler and Necro loss? you are just bad than

Beguiler has 0 counterplay. Against a good Beguiler I lose every time because there is nothing you can do against getting combo'd. I do not know if escape artist works against Piggify but if it does the Beguiler still has MassPiggify and Entangle.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Beguiler has 0 counterplay. Against a good Beguiler I lose every time because there is nothing you can do against getting combo'd. I do not know if escape artist works against Piggify but if it does the Beguiler still has MassPiggify and Entangle.

lol Entangle on Beguiler.

 

[peeeeeeeeeew]

lol Entangle on Beguiler.

Entangle was added when piggify was removed with plaguebomb, due to the server crashing issues. Now that piggify is back in, for some reason entangle hasn't been removed. I hope plaguebomb comes back some day =/

 

[Delfofthebla]

All you are doing is quoting the wiki without showing experience of the skill... Honestly if pyro is so crash hot why isn't it a popular class?

Skill shots + the fact that it's a melee squishy with no "guaranteed" escape mechanic. Chaos Orb will only save you in specific situations, and ender pearls aren't something people are comfortable carrying on them at all times (filthy casuals). Most other squishies have more reliable escape mechanics (Backflip, Blink, Flicker, and maybe even through in GrapplingHook). Pyro has the ender pearls, that's it really.

Entangle was added when piggify was removed with plaguebomb, due to the server crashing issues. Now that piggify is back in, for some reason entangle hasn't been removed. I hope plaguebomb comes back some day =/

Kainzo say anything on that?

 

[Egorh]

Skill shots + the fact that it's a melee squishy with no "guaranteed" escape mechanic. Chaos Orb will only save you in specific situations, and ender pearls aren't something people are comfortable carrying on them at all times (filthy casuals).


Kainzo say anything on that?

No

 

[Delfofthebla]

For all the Pyromancer talk

When I was playing Pyromancer GreatCombustion was just a tool to land an extra ChaosOrb and some more auto attacks. It went GreatCombustion->ChaosOrb->ChaoticStrength (no stamina cost). Pyro's biggest problem for me were the stamina costs; if you wanted to use all the possible skills in the stun duration you could, but you would be completely drained of stamina. Being out of stamina is a massive issue for any melee class, Pyromancer included. When you can't run you can't keep up with your target, they can strafe around you easily to out melee you or the kiting class can just get the distance needed.

Not only are all of Pyro's damaging skills skill shots they also all have a stamina cost. Missing a ChaosOrb is a lot more than just missing that damage. You wasted that 300 stamina and 100+ mana to teleport yourself somewhere you did not want to be (probably).

Missing GreatCombustion will normally cost you the fight because it is where you can land those hard to hit skills. It may be easy to hit in some situations but in any kind of group fight where everyone is running around you can easily miss the stun. When we ganked someone last map while I was Pyro I was busy trying to land a stun or skillshot while they knocked the person around making it close to impossible for me to land something.

As Delf has stated before GreatCombustion is very hard to hit on someone who is running away due to the short range (you might be in range but when you start to use it you get that slow and then they end up being out of range). It is not meant to be a skill used on someone who is running away, it is meant for the people that are coming at you.

And that was kind of the intention. I gave them all these "cool skills" and shortly after adding GreatCombustion I realized that OH! shit! I can wombo-combo anyone and it one-shots. Fuck.


Hmmm... How do I maintain the potency of the skills without allowing them to one shot? Aha! Stamina Costs. I tried it out and liked how it affected the class. I increased mana costs and lowered damages too, you know how it is, a lot of tweaking.

They definitely still have that burst capability, but they are incapable of actually using every single skill in their toolset during that one burst. And if they try? They definitely get some good damage out, but they pay for it. And if they miss? Whelp, they're fucked.

No

Shame.

 

[RShooter2000]

against Beguiler and Necro loss? you are just bad than

I didn't specifically loose to the Necromancer I was fighting, but I felt that if they knew their class a bit better they might have won. Famine counters any stamina hungry class like Ninja, when I fight casters I would rather fight a Beguiler than a Necromancer, Beguiler has entangle which I can escape artist out of, thus making it easier to close the gap. Necromancer has web which you can't escape artist out of, during the web they can put some of their DOTs on you that they wouldn't be able to do during kiting. Until they do that they kite forever with bonespear, decay, and drainsoul then the occasional dark ritual.

 

[JupiterRome]

I don't think I've ever lost to a caster or healer (besides op disciple) as ninja Ive killed dreadknights who are goodish 1v1 @Dsawemd, like ninja could get a buff towards fighting tanks but it isn't a bad class in any way, rs idk I fucked up Trazil like everytime we 1v1ed and I think he's a pretty good Necro, Ive beat runeblades too when they got the jump on me cuz reading fourms, I mean it was coolbeans ive killed bards really easy but Irish is one of the only notable bards and he was Druid at the time so it was some nub, When BaBomba was a berserker our fights were usually pretty close, Paladin and Dragoon have been pretty hard though but I don't use shurkins just smoke bltz evisc get some backstabs when they turn around backflip and shurkin backflip has lower cd and is better then jump so you can use a bow on them too btw

 

[Trazil]

@TrueCorruptor I have been adding to the discussion and I give posts the rating I think they deserve
@jazza411 pyro isn't as desired because classes like wizard have high dps and very good utility.
@Ahrall @BaBomba I did not say it could 1 shot, I said it gets close enough that all you need to do to the rest of the fight is melee with a skill or two and 623 dmg is about 6 and a half hearts for me

 

[Ahrall]

Ninja vs X

Ill toss in my numbers to give a bit more data

Ninja vs Paladin = Never won ever
Ninja vs DreadKnight = Kite with surikens
Ninja vs Berserker = 50/50 depends on how well you can deal with rupture
Ninja vs Dragoon = Usually loose
Ninja vs Wizard = Win
Ninja vs Necromancer = Usually can win, but it is a tricky fight
Ninja vs Beguiler = You are melee, you have no chance
Ninja vs Pyromancer = Win
Ninja vs Shaman = Win
Ninja vs Druid = Super Win
Ninja vs Cleric = Win
Ninja vs Disciple = 50/50 depends on the disciple
Ninja vs Bloodmage =Never actually fought one
Ninja vs Ranger = Win
Ninja vs Bard = Win
Ninja vs Runeblade = Usually loose

 

[RShooter2000]

Ill toss in my numbers to give a bit more data

Ninja vs Paladin = Never won ever
Ninja vs DreadKnight = Kite with surikens
Ninja vs Berserker = 50/50 depends on how well you can deal with rupture
Ninja vs Dragoon = Usually loose
Ninja vs Wizard = Win
Ninja vs Necromancer = Usually can win, but it is a tricky fight
Ninja vs Beguiler = You are melee, you have no chance
Ninja vs Pyromancer = Win
Ninja vs Shaman = Win
Ninja vs Druid = Super Win
Ninja vs Cleric = Win
Ninja vs Disciple = 50/50 depends on the disciple
Ninja vs Bloodmage =Never actually fought one
Ninja vs Ranger = Win
Ninja vs Bard = Win
Ninja vs Runeblade = Usually loose

You could kite with shurikens all day and win, but its a shitty/scummy way to fight so I didn't count those as wins, there's no way that berserker is 50/50. You must have never fought a decent berserker, the damage is too much for a squishy ninja.

 

[Ahrall]

I agree 100% that kiting with shurikens is a garbage way to have to kill someone, but it gets the job done so I guess that has to count for something.
The way I fight berserkers is just kite with shurikens and counter their lunge with kick into backflip (so they can't rupture you) it works sometimes, but if you whiff it you are going to get ruptured and thus murdered

 

[Delfofthebla]

I agree 100% that kiting with shurikens is a garbage way to have to kill someone, but it gets the job done so I guess that has to count for something.
The way I fight berserkers is just kite with shurikens and counter their lunge with kick into backflip (so they can't rupture you) it works sometimes, but if you whiff it you are going to get ruptured and thus murdered

The original idea was that if you got the proper initiation, you could seal the deal with melee alone. But if you got jumped, or if things just weren't in your favor, you wouldn't be able to faceroll with left click spam.

That's why I decided to make Shuriken's your means of winning a fight that you were unprepared for. It's also why there is a small "arc" in the Shuriken toss. It forces you to play it more seriously. You have to run for your life while making small adjustments to your aim during a Shuriken toss in order to reach maximum damage output.

I'd argue it was more enjoyable to do all of this when the Shuriken actually knocked the target back, but it was also broken as hell, so I ended up taking it out. >.>

 

[LightningCape]

Ninja vs Beguiler = You are melee, you have no chance

I cried