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Suggestion Windwalk

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
Return windwalk to Speed III, Alchemists can make speed II pots that last longer than windwalk. Giving an advantage to someone with speed pots over sammy. I don't really care either way, but seems like a pretty shitty nerf considering the other class that had "one" got blink instead.
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
Lets see, windwalk unlike potions is instant and doesn't require you to hold them in your inventory. Seems like a pretty fair trade to me, even if it is only speed II.

As for blink, runeblade is supposed to be a caster-like rogue. Besides, a speed boost is more efficient than a blink when trying to catch someone running.
 

Dsawemd

Wiki Team
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
What we REALLY need to augment the revamp is a way to allow potion effects and Heroe's skills to interact.

Imo, if a Samurai has a speed I effect from a potion, he should be regranted the remaining effect after losing Windwalk, minus the time to use WW. Possible?
 

w0nd3rb0y

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
What we REALLY need to augment the revamp is a way to allow potion effects and Heroe's skills to interact.

Imo, if a Samurai has a speed I effect from a potion, he should be regranted the remaining effect after losing Windwalk, minus the time to use WW. Possible?
This would work as well, If a sammy drinks a speed pot then uses WW its cancels both out and then you have nothing.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Return windwalk to Speed III, Alchemists can make speed II pots that last longer than windwalk. Giving an advantage to someone with speed pots over sammy. I don't really care either way, but seems like a pretty shitty nerf considering the other class that had "one" got blink instead.
Windwalk / One will not be returning to Speed III.

The fact of the matter is, Speed III is too powerful. It is far from balanced, and I do not think it should be tied to such a static ability such as WindWalk. Naturally, the same thing goes for One. While Runeblade did indeed get Blink in place of One, the blink is half the distance in comparison to Wizard (7 blocks) with around a 4 second longer cooldown. Yes, Blink is a very useful skill that cannot be acquired via potions, but I'd just like to make the point that as far as melee combat is concerned, One/WindWalk are far more beneficial abilities compared to Blink.

However, I do agree that them having a skill that does the exact same thing as a potion isn't very "fun" or "fair". The only solution is to replace it with another ability. It would likely be something other than a static speed increase, but still allow Samurai to have some sort of gap closing capabilities.

People are welcome to suggest possible alternatives, but unless they are cleared by Kainzo & I am capable of coding them, it probably won't happen.

What we REALLY need to augment the revamp is a way to allow potion effects and Heroe's skills to interact.

Imo, if a Samurai has a speed I effect from a potion, he should be regranted the remaining effect after losing Windwalk, minus the time to use WW. Possible?
I do not think this is possible.
 
Y

ytiggidmas

Windwalk / One will not be returning to Speed III.

The fact of the matter is, Speed III is too powerful. It is far from balanced, and I do not think it should be tied to such a static ability such as WindWalk. Naturally, the same thing goes for One. While Runeblade did indeed get Blink in place of One, the blink is half the distance in comparison to Wizard (7 blocks) with around a 4 second longer cooldown. Yes, Blink is a very useful skill that cannot be acquired via potions, but I'd just like to make the point that as far as melee combat is concerned, One/WindWalk are far more beneficial abilities compared to Blink.

However, I do agree that them having a skill that does the exact same thing as a potion isn't very "fun" or "fair". The only solution is to replace it with another ability. It would likely be something other than a static speed increase, but still allow Samurai to have some sort of gap closing capabilities.

People are welcome to suggest possible alternatives, but unless they are cleared by Kainzo & I am capable of coding them, it probably won't happen.


I do not think this is possible.
I see no point in having windwalk with this recent nerf, for example earlier today you were able to outrun me because you used speed 2 potions, and gained even more distance with blink. But I cannot stress how stupid it is to have this skill when you can use a potion and have it on for 3x longer. I think samurai's should get a new sort of gap closer, samurai's are just super awkward now, and I feel that even the best pvpers on the server would struggle playing it effectively as a pvp class. I understand it is rather difficult to hit people with speed 3, but with a more focus, and maybe thinking a bit more, like using a slow skill could prove rather effective against it. If the point of a skill is to allow you to chase somebody down, you would think it would be faster than what another person would be able to run.
 

kirinelf

A frightening Cactus!
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
A classic samurai skill in many games is Flash (Issen), where the Samurai just plains teleports behind the target, hitting it with a slash (or more, depending on the style and realism) in the process. If I recall correctly, there's a similar skill for the Pyromancer that involves an Ender pearl (Although I think it got removed for being glitchy and slow as heck?). Having something like throwing an item (Such as a leaf block, for that classic scene in many movies where a leaf is floating down and gets sliced in half) with a limited range (Something like 4 blocks) and teleporting to where it lands while attacking might be a good option. it might be a bit too similar to the new Runeblade's Blink though.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
I see no point in having windwalk with this recent nerf, for example earlier today you were able to outrun me because you used speed 2 potions, and gained even more distance with blink. But I cannot stress how stupid it is to have this skill when you can use a potion and have it on for 3x longer. I think samurai's should get a new sort of gap closer, samurai's are just super awkward now, and I feel that even the best pvpers on the server would struggle playing it effectively as a pvp class. I understand it is rather difficult to hit people with speed 3, but with a more focus, and maybe thinking a bit more, like using a slow skill could prove rather effective against it. If the point of a skill is to allow you to chase somebody down, you would think it would be faster than what another person would be able to run.
I didn't actually have a Speed II potion when running from you. I was just using blink and ensuring that I was taking the most advantageous terrain paths.

I'd like to correct you on something else though. WindWalk is not designed to allow you to "chase somebody down". It is a combat ability. It is meant to allow you to outpace your opponents and quickly close small gaps between you and your target. While this sometimes goes hand in hand with chasing, it is not meant to allow you to catch the more mobile based classes, such as Dragoon, Wizard, Ninja, and now Runeblade. Speed III not only allowed you to completely and utterly destroy your opponents ability to react to your movements, it also gave a very high level of chasing power. The ability was simply too strong. Part of the decision to reduce the speed ranking for WindWalk was made in order to hinder the Samurai's chasing capabilities.

However, like I said before, I agree that Speed II for WindWalk isn't really doing the job--it's better than nothing, and it's instantaneous unlike a typical Speed II potion, but the ability just isn't as reliable as it was before. Now, I'd like to see this addressed, but I'm telling you now--WindWalk is not going to get Speed III back. This means that if you find the ability lackluster, it needs to be replaced with something else. If you wish to see this issue resolved, think of a solution and suggest it.

A classic samurai skill in many games is Flash (Issen), where the Samurai just plains teleports behind the target, hitting it with a slash (or more, depending on the style and realism) in the process. If I recall correctly, there's a similar skill for the Pyromancer that involves an Ender pearl (Although I think it got removed for being glitchy and slow as heck?). Having something like throwing an item (Such as a leaf block, for that classic scene in many movies where a leaf is floating down and gets sliced in half) with a limited range (Something like 4 blocks) and teleporting to where it lands while attacking might be a good option. it might be a bit too similar to the new Runeblade's Blink though.
I think I know what you're referring to, but I don't know if I would call it a teleport (despite how it is often portrayed in media where this "leaf cutting" thing is present.)

It's more along the lines of a high speed dash, which is honestly what I was thinking when I originally was brainstorming alternatives. However, due to NoCheat issues, I haven't put much thought into it other than the initial idea.

I'd like to see what Samurai players think of the idea of a high speed dash kind of ability.
 

kirinelf

A frightening Cactus!
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
I think I know what you're referring to, but I don't know if I would call it a teleport (despite how it is often portrayed in media where this "leaf cutting" thing is present.)

It's more along the lines of a high speed dash, which is honestly what I was thinking when I originally was brainstorming alternatives. However, due to NoCheat issues, I haven't put much thought into it other than the initial idea.

I'd like to see what Samurai players think of this.

That's what actually happens, yes. xD It's just highly stylized to make it seem like a teleport. A flash step, so to speak, hence the Japanese name (Issen = One Flash).

Yet another alternative would be a vortex skill of sorts. Similar to the Dragoon's Pull and the Disciple's Forcepull, the Samurai (lore-wise) slashes so fast before him it causes a vacuum that forces targets closer within a 4 block range. Or something similar.

These are probably the alternatives that most fit the current playstyle, and which can be and has already be done in Heroes, NoCheat interference aside. From what I've seen, Samurai basically need a way to close gaps quickly, and there's really only two options once you get down to it. Either move the Samurai to the target or move the target to the Samurai.

The two skills I suggested fit within the classical image of a Samurai and have already been successfully implemented in Heroes before, so I think they might be among the better options.
 

macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
Samurai is fine without speed 3, with speed 3 it was a caster killer making it have no counter. It countered all healers, wizard, pyro, all rogues and had a decent chance against all warriors. Only class that could effectives kill most samurais was necro.

Samurais still hit like a truck and can tank a decent amount especially with bladegrasp.

From my experience as a ninja and my experience as a sammy, it was far easier to kill casters as a samurai, which makes no sense because rogues are supposed to counter casters. The nerf on windwalk only makes samurai less of a caster killer, which is good.
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
Make Windwalk Speed III for 5sec! And a lower CD of course.
This isn't a bad idea, but I have a feeling it will still bring back one of the prior issues. Without a long duration, it will prevent them from being a "complete" caster killer, but even a few seconds is enough time to completely destroy any class, be they melee or caster. It's just too fast for a combat ability--it gives them too much control.

Why do bards still have speed 3 in their 3 second cd windwalk?
Theirs gets removed the moment they take any damage.

Telepoet Sammy to target 5 block range, stuns for 250ms, that way rogues can't immediately backflip blink or accelerando away. Don't care what the name is.
So you're wanting tackle then? >.>
 

Jack_Reacher

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 4, 2011
even a few seconds is enough time to completely destroy any class, be they melee or caster.
This is true - as a Wizard, if I let a (good) Samurai get close to me in a duel, I'm screwed. They drop all their DoTs and Cleave, while madly swinging the whole time. And with Fearless... they just tear through leather armor with no fear of reciprocated melee attacks.
 

macura

Diamond
Joined
May 2, 2012
I still don't get why sammy needs change though, they are not supposed to shred casters.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Why, someone who is no longer playing, so avidly defending / posting on balance discussions? ;)

Either way, the issue stems from potions causing balance issues.

We could just restrict them from everyone except Alchemists .. but not sure if thats a "good" idea.
 
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