Suggestion War/Raiding Plugin development

[northeaster345]

I've been thinking about an idea for a bit for how to change up the way raiding and open world pvp is focused on Herocraft. This suggestion would take a significant amount of coding work, but I think it would help give a point to world pvp and raids, and also increase the roleplaying feel and how diplomacy works. The details of this proposal would have to be fleshed out, but that comes after

Wars
Towns would be able to declare war on one another, for a decent startup cost(1000c?), with an item cost every week or so.

• a town can only declare war on one other town at a time, but multiple towns can declare war on a single town (Diminishing returns for multiple outposts attacking one town)
• You get a small coin bonus for killing someone in a town you're at war with (?)
• When you're at war, a manager of a town can set up a town respawn point, where if you die within 200 blocks of your town, you respawn there instead of at a graveyard.
• You have to be at war with someone to set up an outpost outside their town.
• Can't declare war on a town for the first 2 weeks of its existence
• Need cooldown on declaring war on someone

Capitulation

• A town can make themselves a vassal of another town at any time, but they have to pay a tribute to their new liege lord (proposed 1/4 of the drain rate - see below- of an outpost, i.e. 30c/day for a 1-10 member town) - same amount of profit as an outpost for attacker, but vassal loses a lot less
• Vassal town can no longer have war declared on them, only on their liege lord
• If either vassal member or lord town member kills one another, there's a coin penalty from the offending member (if no $$, from town bank)
• Lord town now has an increased drain rate from any outpost attacking them (+25% per vassal), bigger target of raids.
• Lord town can accept multiple vassals, but cannot be a vassal.
• Both sides can break the agreement, but it stays active for 3-7 (TBD) days so people take these agreements seriously, and don't break them because they can.

Outposts/Raids
This is part of the core of the idea, in order to give people a motivation to get out of their towns to defend, and also to add area control to Herocraft, while adding faster paced battles.

Basics

• Attackers can set up a regioned raiding outpost (size 15x15x15, or so) outside the town (100-200 blocks) they are at war with for a cost (items). Proposed cost (1 gold sword, 3 diamond swords, 10 iron sword, 10 bows, 5 sets of iron armor, 5 sets of chain armor, 5 sets of leather)
• This acts as a respawn point if you die within 200 blocks of the town you are attacking.
• The outpost only has a number of charges (100?), where you each time you respawn there, it costs 1 charge.
• The reason you have to attack the outpost is because it gradually drains the defending town's town bank of coin, a percentage of which goes to the attackers, probably 25%. My thought was 10c/30 minutes or 480c/day

I propose making the rate of drain based on the number of members a town has. That way smaller towns are not targetted as heavily
1-10 members, the rate of drain is 120c/day
11-25 members, 240c/day
26-50 members, 360c/day
51-100 members 480c/day
101-200 members 600c/day
201+ members 720c/day

Attacking and defending

• The outpost is recharged by every 3rd or 4th kill the attackers make on the defenders, within the vicinity of the town
• Perhaps on a long cooldown (3 hrs?), it could be reinforced for an item cost (10 lives for 1 diamond block?)
• Defenders can deal with the outpost by killing the attackers
• Or... casting a spell (channel 1 minute, 30 min-1hr cd), within 20 blocks of the outpost or so, that would drain 10 charges from the outpost respawner. If you have more players you can get rid of an undefended outpost relatively quickly. Would have to be given to players who have specced combat, so you can't send someone in who is pvp-off
• Defenders would try to find out when the outpost is undefended to sneak in and cast a drain spell safely, even newer players would be able to help (if they are specced).
• Defenders get a reward for destroying the outpost before the attackers remove the outpost (500c from attackers, 250c goes to defenders?). Attacker can remove the outpost for 500c, so no money goes to the defenders.

Pros and Cons
Pros

• Makes PvP objective oriented, and faster paced
• Makes people have a reason to come out to defend their towns
• A way for active towns to deal with inactive towns
• Diplomacy has more consequences now
• Coin sink and item sink
• Multiple ways for towns to deal with attackers, some based in pvp, others based on diplomacy, or simply just being active.
• Could be integrated into Karma, so that good towns can only declare war on evil towns, etc. Maybe good towns get a better drain spell (gets rid of 15 charges instead of 10). Evil towns would get cheaper declarations of war and outposts, also maybe start outpost with 120 charges instead of 100 perhaps. Good would get cheaper declarations of war and outposts but only vs Evil. Neutral could still declare war, but would cost more $$$ and items

Cons

• hard to balance making it so you can't just leave an outpost outside someone's base to drain money, and making it so you can't just have people come on in the middle of the night to eliminate an outpost
• Concerns about big towns camping small ones (I have tried to change the incentive structure to avoid this)
• lots of coding
• need to flesh out costs
• can't have allied towns declaring war on each other to get benefits

Let me know what you think, or if I wasn't clear enough, or you have any concerns. If you have questions on why I propose things the way I did, I'd be happy to try and explain, or debate. I just think it would be a way to make raiding more interesting and diplomacy mean something.
Oudaiesty, themeoff, jake332211, Rumblestikk, leftovers5

 

[Rumblestikk]

100% this. Objectives besides Hide or Kill are needed.

 

[Warmachinexp]

• a town can only declare war on one other town at a time, but multiple towns can declare war on a single town

• The reason you have to attack the outpost is because it gradually drains the defending town's town bank of coin, a percentage of which goes to the attackers, probably 25%. My thought was 10c/20-30 minutes, so 24 hours of doing nothing = 480-720c drained

How does that go hand in hand? Cause what if the whole of a Kingdom attacked a newly forged town? Also what about allies of that town? Would there kills on attackers mean nothing but a chance for defenders to cast said destruction spell?

I only ask these coming from a new towns perspective.

 

[northeaster345]

How does that go hand in hand? Cause what if the whole of a Kingdom attacked a newly forged town? Also what about allies of that town? Would there kills on attackers mean nothing but a chance for defenders to cast said destruction spell?

I only ask these coming from a new towns perspective.

I had written in there that you can't declare war on a town that's less than 2 weeks old. Long post, must have accidentally deleted it.

All respawns from the attackers drain the charges, though maybe every 2 kills by the attackers on the defenders should equal an extra charge

 

[Warmachinexp]

I had written in there that you can't declare war on a town that's less than 2 weeks old. Long post, must have accidentally deleted it.

All respawns from the attackers drain the charges, though maybe every 2 kills by the attackers on the defenders should equal an extra charge

As for the money drain from the towns bank? I imagine with 2 towns declaring war on one the money would drain quick. This would force either alliances or a kingdom to rule them all. Even with a 2 week grace period the town may not have set up far enough. The grief of a town is heavy and large, but even in 2 weeks you can't build enough to defend a war. Maybe if the drain was based on town size also, the larger the town the bigger the drain.

How I see it is that if a kingdom wanted you gone, a small hamlet let's say, they could easily put 3 towns to war on said town. I imagine even with a 480 coin drain per day from war a hamlet could easily fall.

I'm not disagreeing with the suggestion I'm simply looking out for the little guys. I mean hell if anything it could even be used to free up town spaces faster by draining an inactive towns bank. Maybe even cause some war between evil and good causing pvp. Forcing alliances isn't necessarily a bad idea, cause lots of pvp on the server, I shall end with my early statement I am simply looking out for the little guys.

 

[northeaster345]

As for the money drain from the towns bank? I imagine with 2 towns declaring war on one the money would drain quick. This would force either alliances or a kingdom to rule them all. Even with a 2 week grace period the town may not have set up far enough. The grief of a town is heavy and large, but even in 2 weeks you can't build enough to defend a war. Maybe if the drain was based on town size also, the larger the town the bigger the drain.

How I see it is that if a kingdom wanted you gone, a small hamlet let's say, they could easily put 3 towns to war on said town. I imagine even with a 480 coin drain per day from war a hamlet could easily fall.

I'm not disagreeing with the suggestion I'm simply looking out for the little guys. I mean hell if anything it could even be used to free up town spaces faster by draining an inactive towns bank. Maybe even cause some war between evil and good causing pvp. Forcing alliances isn't necessarily a bad idea, cause lots of pvp on the server, I shall end with my early statement I am simply looking out for the little guys.

I understand your concerns, but I just worry about people declaring war on one another to give themselves immunity. We could also make it so the more towns that declare war on a town, the less that each outpost drains. .75 x 480 for 2 towns , 2/3 x 480 total for 3 towns, etc.

I don't think it would be that hard to break a siege, you can always sneak on late at night, with 2 or 3 people and take a good chunk out of the outpost's charges. If they don't always have someone at least watching the outpost you can break the siege with some dedicated work.

From the attacker's perspective, this might also give a reason for engineers to set up turrets to defend the base lightly when fewer people are on. I'd imagine that a minute of vulnerability would make it tough to eat shots from a turret.

I also think having 3 towns constantly attacking a new hamlet would provoke some kind of response from the rest of the server.

Love the feedback btw. Really helpful, I still need to flesh out this idea.

 

[Warmachinexp]

Basics

• Attackers can set up a regioned raiding outpost (size 10x10x10, or so) outside the town (100-200 blocks) they are at war with for a cost (items).
• This acts as a respawn point if you die within 200 blocks of the town you are attacking.
• The outpost only has a number of charges (100?), where you each time you respawn there, it costs 1 charge.

Attacking and defending

• The outpost is recharged by every 3rd or 4th kill the attackers make on the defenders, within the vicinity of the town
• Perhaps on a long cooldown, it could be reinforced for an item cost (10 lives for 1 diamond block?)
• Or... casting a spell (channel 1 minute, 30 min-1hr cd), within 20 blocks of the outpost or so, that would drain 10 charges from the outpost respawner. If you have more players you can get rid of an undefended outpost relatively quickly. Would have to be given to players who have specced combat, so you can't send someone in who is pvp-off

Suggestions on your Suggestions

1. The outposts cost maybe give an idea of what is needed to set one up. Having part of it planned out could help ease in the idea of it being added. Adding on to it make weapons be added like 1 gold sword 3 diamond 10 iron a bow, because wars aren't fought with blocks and coins. Another thing would be adding into towns that you may not upgrade your town if a outpost is under siege of your town, due to annoyances that could come with upgrading and claiming an outpost/items.

2. As for the idea of respawns I like it, but maybe increase the region of the outpost a bit to stop from aoe camping on an outpost. As for the recharge It seems like a good idea but for a wealthy town 1 diamond block is nothing, also soldiers fight for pride and money, a diamond block could work but coin would make more sense. Also maybe even a cooldown in between setting up outposts.

3. I love the idea of a spell to remove a bit of charges from the outpost, I only see a few flaws with it. Deciding what class/prof gets it, and if it should be based on a town cooldown or a player cooldown. Because as you said people could just come online at the middle of night and just use said skill to drain the outpost. So maybe a town skill type thing could be added? Only one use of the town, but then comes the idea of multiple outposts. Good idea needs more thought. If the cooldown was small then the costs of an outpost would not be as large, but if the cooldown was long then larger costs for an outpost should be needed. Lots of more thought into this needed in my opinion.

 

[northeaster345]

Suggestions on your Suggestions

1. The outposts cost maybe give an idea of what is needed to set one up. Having part of it planned out could help ease in the idea of it being added. Adding on to it make weapons be added like 1 gold sword 3 diamond 10 iron a bow, because wars aren't fought with blocks and coins. Another thing would be adding into towns that you may not upgrade your town if a outpost is under siege of your town, due to annoyances that could come with upgrading and claiming an outpost/items.

2. As for the idea of respawns I like it, but maybe increase the region of the outpost a bit to stop from aoe camping on an outpost. As for the recharge It seems like a good idea but for a wealthy town 1 diamond block is nothing, also soldiers fight for pride and money, a diamond block could work but coin would make more sense. Also maybe even a cooldown in between setting up outposts.

3. I love the idea of a spell to remove a bit of charges from the outpost, I only see a few flaws with it. Deciding what class/prof gets it, and if it should be based on a town cooldown or a player cooldown. Because as you said people could just come online at the middle of night and just use said skill to drain the outpost. So maybe a town skill type thing could be added? Only one use of the town, but then comes the idea of multiple outposts. Good idea needs more thought. If the cooldown was small then the costs of an outpost would not be as large, but if the cooldown was long then larger costs for an outpost should be needed. Lots of more thought into this needed in my opinion.

1) Yeah, I really like the idea of a weapon cost what you proposed sounds fine, maybe more bows. Maybe armor too? Though an outpost should also cost some blocks too in my opinion. You'd have to build it, prolly wood and stone. Yeah preventing upgrades sounds good, that would provide another incentive to getting rid of an attacker's outpost.

2) 15x15x15 might be reasonable. Definitely a cooldown after your outpost is destroyed or removed. I'd say at the very least 1 day. Coin also works for reinforcement, diamond blocks might be used to recharge the magic of the spawn point, but either is fine.

3) I think that all combat specs should get it so people can use it as long as they are mastered. Also the player cooldown is useful because that way you get a benefit from having more players working to remove the attackers. Balance will be tough. I like the idea of 1 outpost per town because it keeps things from being too cluttered, and keeps the focus on the one outpost.

 

[Jonsoon]

Very neat idea, but first I have a question;
Why, besides the ability to completely camp a town, would someone declare war on a town?

Suggestions:

- Outpost costs 1,000c to place. Placeable by the town owner only, and the coin is taken from the Town Bank.
- Each time an attacker respawns at the Outpost, 1 diamond (or other item) and 5c is deducted from the attacker Town Bank, 3c of which goes to the defencer Town Bank.
- Each time an attacker kills a defender, 5c is deducted from the defender Town Bank, 3c of which goes to the attacker Town Bank.
- If there is no coin in the defender Town Bank, no money is deducted, an no money awarded to the attacker.
- If there is no coin or items required in the attacker town bank, they cannot respawn at the Outpost.

- Outposts are automatically destroyed after 12hrs, and all 1,000c is lost. The attacker town owner can opt to pre-emptively remove the Outpost at any time with a command, and 500c is returned to the attacker Town Bank.
- Defenders must have a way to stop the attackers. This I suggest there being four obsidian blocks, one on each corner of the Outpost region. If the defender is able to destroy these before the attackers remove the Outpost, the Outpost is destroyed, and the attackers lose the 1,000c investment, 500c of which goes to the defender Town Bank.

- I also suggest that the Outposts be prebuilt structures that are placed with a command from the town owner (if that is even possible).


Sorry if any of this was talked about in the comments, I only briefly read them.

 

[northeaster345]

Very neat idea, but first I have a question;
Why, besides the ability to completely camp a town, would someone declare war on a town?

Suggestions:

- Outpost costs 1,000c to place. Placeable by the town owner only, and the coin is taken from the Town Bank.
- Each time an attacker respawns at the Outpost, 1 diamond (or other item) and 5c is deducted from the attacker Town Bank, 3c of which goes to the defencer Town Bank.
- Each time an attacker kills a defender, 5c is deducted from the defender Town Bank, 3c of which goes to the attacker Town Bank.
- If there is no coin in the defender Town Bank, no money is deducted, an no money awarded to the attacker.
- If there is no coin or items required in the attacker town bank, they cannot respawn at the Outpost.

- Outposts are automatically destroyed after 12hrs, and all 1,000c is lost. The attacker town owner can opt to pre-emptively remove the Outpost at any time with a command, and 500c is returned to the attacker Town Bank.
- Defenders must have a way to stop the attackers. This I suggest there being four obsidian blocks, one on each corner of the Outpost region. If the defender is able to destroy these before the attackers remove the Outpost, the Outpost is destroyed, and the attackers lose the 1,000c investment, 500c of which goes to the defender Town Bank.

- I also suggest that the Outposts be prebuilt structures that are placed with a command from the town owner (if that is even possible).


Sorry if any of this was talked about in the comments, I only briefly read them.

The problem is that there is no driving force for a defending town to do anything. I sit in town, and you lose 500c at the very least. Why should I go out at all?

In my proposition, outposts can be destroyed by casting a spell to drain charges, or by killing attackers. There's a defender's advantage in that every kill the defenders get counts for more than the attackers killing the defenders. The defenders can also use trickery or call in allies to get rid of the attackers. Or even diplomacy, you could pay off the attackers to remove their outpost.

The attackers get some benefit the longer they are able to maintain their siege/camp near the town, but have to keep a constant presence there or they will be eliminated.

The bonus for declaring war is that every time either side gets a kill on the other, they get coins, similar to your idea.

EDIT: missed the part about there being a bonus for destroying the outpost, but you don't lose anything by just sitting inside.

 

[Warmachinexp]

- Defenders must have a way to stop the attackers. This I suggest there being four obsidian blocks, one on each corner of the Outpost region. If the defender is able to destroy these before the attackers remove the Outpost, the Outpost is destroyed, and the attackers lose the 1,000c investment, 500c of which goes to the defender Town Bank.

A good idea if it was a minigame but you have to think of the times when noone is online. A miner with high effeminacy pick and excavate good destroy those blocks easily. The idea with the spell and the cooldown on it is that even at night due to a long cooldown on said spell the outpost may very well be alive at dawn.

 

[Jonsoon]

EDIT: missed the part about there being a bonus for destroying the outpost, but you don't lose anything by just sitting inside.

Why should they? If a defending town automatically looses coin, this would be extremely OP. Large towns and PvP oriented groups would target small towns unable to defend themselves. No time length of immunity can help people from this. This would cause entire towns to leave. This also would encourage attackers to target towns with no people online.

My suggestion will encourage attackers to place an Outpost at a currently active town to potentially earn money. The Outpost is an investment with no guaranteed return if the defenders choose to not participate. However, the defenders are encouraged to participate with monetary rewards for each kill, and a large reward for defending the attack by destroying the Outpost.

A good idea if it was a minigame but you have to think of the times when noone is online. A miner with high effeminacy pick and excavate good destroy those blocks easily. The idea with the spell and the cooldown on it is that even at night due to a long cooldown on said spell the outpost may very well be alive at dawn.

The point of my suggestion is to encourage active towns to attack active towns. And yes there is excavate, but that is incentive to have a Miner in your town. This could of course be done with skills as well.

Also yes this would do well as a mini game within Herocraft. This is not the first time I have thought of this

 

[Grandsoulking]

This whole idea seems like a huge waste of money. I can see all your reasons to why this could be good but it just seems like a major waste of time and money. If this was to added it would have to be added on a fresh map with no towns having been built yet as how the server is right now this would give larger towns a unfair advantage and 2 weeks grace period is not really enough time for a town to really set up like the town is starting form like myabe 5 members that would rule out the creation of small towns because of the money drain of deffending the new town

 

[northeaster345]

Why should they? If a defending town automatically looses coin, this would be extremely OP. Large towns and PvP oriented groups would target small towns unable to defend themselves. No time length of immunity can help people from this. This would cause entire towns to leave. This also would encourage attackers to target towns with no people online.

-snip-

I'm also fine with giving a coin bonus to defenders who eliminate the outpost before the attackers remove it.

A town should have some obligation to defend itself, this system offers a variety of ways to do that, some of which are based in PvP and others which are not.

The concerns about targetting smaller towns are fair, but perhaps they could be alleviated by instead of making the amount drained change based on the number of members they have. You can drain more money from a larger town than a smaller one.

1-10 members, the rate of drain is 120c/day
11-25 members, 240c/day
26-50 members, 360c/day
51-100 members 480c/day
101-200 members 600c/day
201+ members 720c/day

Gives towns a reason to trim their inactive members.

Also most of these small towns die out currently anyway....

 

[Warmachinexp]

0-10 members, the rate of drain is 120c/day
10-25 members, 240c/day
25-50 members, 360c/day
50-100 members 480c/day
100-200 members 600c/day
200+ members 720c/day

Gives towns a reason to trim their inactive members.

Maybe even something along the lines as

0-10 members, rate is hamlet 100/day town 110/day city/125 capital/150

 

[northeaster345]

Maybe even something along the lines as

0-10 members, rate is hamlet 100/day town 110/day city/125 capital/150

I'm fine with a multiplier based on town size, but it kind of provides a disincentive to upgrade towns. Maybe they also get a bonus in how strong their purge outpost is, or how much of a coin bonus they get when at war?

 

[northeaster345]

With a bonus of 250c on destruction of outpost out of 500c taken from the attackers, there's a significant disincentive to attack smaller towns. Small towns can take out an outpost within 48 hours and still come out ahead, while costing the attackers a lot.

 

[kirinelf]

What about an option for towns to opt in and opt out, with limits? Say you need to wait five days before opting in or out, as well as a fee in blocks and coins for doing so? Maybe even have time limits on opting out (For example you can opt out for a month, but after a month you'll need to pay some more to opt out again).

This will allow smaller/non-PvP towns to be able to stay out of the whole business. Think of it as the diplomatic/small country that offers a tribute in exchange for sanctuary.

 

[Jack_Reacher]

What about an option for towns to opt in and opt out, with limits? Say you need to wait five days before opting in or out, as well as a fee in blocks and coins for doing so? Maybe even have time limits on opting out (For example you can opt out for a month, but after a month you'll need to pay some more to opt out again).

This will allow smaller/non-PvP towns to be able to stay out of the whole business. Think of it as the diplomatic/small country that offers a tribute in exchange for sanctuary.

You should have the option to capitulate - at the cost of some coin/ITEMS that the defender must pay to the attacker. This way the defender can stop bleeding money if they know they can't win. I guess there should be some cooldown for declaring war on a town, so you can't just do this repeatedly. Perhaps the cooldown could be scaled to the town size differential between the attacker and the defender.

 

[northeaster345]

What about an option for towns to opt in and opt out, with limits? Say you need to wait five days before opting in or out, as well as a fee in blocks and coins for doing so? Maybe even have time limits on opting out (For example you can opt out for a month, but after a month you'll need to pay some more to opt out again).

This will allow smaller/non-PvP towns to be able to stay out of the whole business. Think of it as the diplomatic/small country that offers a tribute in exchange for sanctuary.

You should have the option to capitulate - at the cost of some coin/ITEMS that the defender must pay to the attacker. This way the defender can stop bleeding money if they know they can't win. I guess there should be some cooldown for declaring war on a town, so you can't just do this repeatedly. Perhaps the cooldown could be scaled to the town size differential between the attacker and the defender.

Perhaps with capitulation, you pay a town to be your protector, and you no longer can have war declared on you. Every time someone wants to declare war on you, they have to attack your liege lord instead. The vassal pays 1/4 of what the drain costs would be for protection (i.e. 30c/day for a small town). Both towns would suffer coin loss for killing one another (by individual, or if they have no money, from the town).

This liege lord would then have higher drain costs when they are attacked, so they lose more money if someone puts an outpost near their town (+25% drain cost per vassal). But the liege lord towns would likely be the ones who relish having more pvp come to their doorstep.

This incentivises small towns to seek protection from larger towns or pvp towns against other raiders. The protector state now gets money, but faces more incentive for attack.

You'd be able to capitulate before and during a war. But if you make yourself a vassal before the war, your Lord gets a benefit in a consistent small income, whereas during a war, they've already paid money to declare war etc. If you waited until after someone declared war on you, you'd prolly have to pay them a lump sum in addition to the vassalage tribute to convince them to accept the agreement.