• Guest, we are doing a new map (refresh) for Herocraft. Gather your friends and get ready! Coming next Friday, 06/28/24 @ 7PM CT play.hc.to
    Read up on the guides and new systems! Here.
    View the LIVE Map here @ hc.to/map
    Stuck or have a problem? use "/pe create" to to open a ticket with staff (There are some known issues and other hotfixes we will be pushing asap)
  • Guest, Make sure to use our LAUNCHER! Read more here!

The purple elephant in the room...

Status
Not open for further replies.

STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
I'd like to quote a short blurb I found on the forums, dated back a few months:

Please explain why a class shouldn't have as much chance to kill another class as any other?

I've been reading a lot on the forums how class vs. class battles end up being 'rock, paper, scissors' matches. The general belief around here is that there are certain classes that AREN'T SUPPOSED to beat other classes... but why?

Every class should have advantages and disadvantages. I chose the healer path on day 1 because I had experience with the path on another server. I was expecting that, no matter what path I chose, I will have an equal oppurtunity to beat someone if I crossed paths with them (assuming we're at similar levels).

The reality, of course, is that this isn't the case. As soon as I see someone running in my direction wearing a big tanky suit, I might as well just /kill so I don't give the guy the satisfaction of killing me. The numbers don't lie... the vast majority of the people playing on this server are Warrior specs. The disappointing part is the REASON why they're warriors. On day 1 they didn't look at a list of all the skills and say "oh wow, i want to become a Samurai because these skills look awesome!". The fact is, they chose the warrior path because it is in their best interest not to die (ie, you're fooling yourself if you don't think they're beyond OP).

There are some exceptions though. There seem to be quite a few Wizards, Necromancers, Ninjas, and Rangers online at any given time. Some Wizards and Necromancers, perhaps, mainly go that route for their ability to make money from spawn or nether ports, although I'll agree that these 4 specs have a good shot at killing a warrior spec if they are skilled enough.

There are, of course, many other specs you can choose from, but players are generally staying away from these since they know that they'll have little chance of survival. At this point, the Healer class in itself might as well be wiped out completely, especially now that Disciples received that hard nerf a couple of days ago.

I understand that there is a balance team that is designed to sort all of this out, but some of the decisions made are confusing, to say the least. The only way I see this being fixed is by either giving all of the warrior specs (here come the tomatoes being thrown at me) a HARD nerf, or by bumping up the lesser played specs so they become more appealing and are able to survive.

TL;DR? Put 2 unskilled monkeys controlling different mastered specs against eachother and after a 100 game sample size the score should be 50/50, not 100/0. It shouldn't matter WHAT spec you choose, you should ALWAYS have an equal chance of beating your opponent assuming one of you isn't a HC savant.
 

malmenca

Diamond
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
I feel pain every time someone argues "My class is supposed to beat yours." 1) because it's fucking true, 2) it's absolutely retarded to have a pvp system that isn't based on skill. Skill is such a minute factor in PVP it's stupid as shit.
The people I play with all have realized the whole Warrior OP thing. The way we deal with it is to fight on mountains and play broken ass classes so we can knock u off said mountain.
 

themeoff

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
Location
Indiana
i have to say there is a big advantage that the warrior specs do hold over most others in just armor being able to absorb so much of the damage you deal. its dang near impossible to kill a warrior spec as a disc anymore unless your fighting on mountains and even then you won't get a kill
 

Northac

Obsidian
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Not to sure about all the classes (i dont pvp) but god forbid if you get jumped by one (happened to me today) cause all they have to do is charge you and bam, done. ( I just mastered caster today too but still ouch)
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
The equality issue has bothered me for a long time. Folks call for every class to be viable against every other class, but it seems like that would require the elimination or minimization of differentiating factors like magic damage disregarding armor. If every class should have advantages and disadvantages you cannot expect this to happen.

IMO, nothing is wrong with the idea of rock-paper-scissors as long as it isn't blatantly forced and if there's wiggle room. Warrior > Rogue > Caster > Warrior works off logical consequences of their general attributes and is not always true, so I'd consider our current setup a success. Tweaking is always possible of course and I'm not defending the apparent eminence of Warrior specs in PvP, but I genuinely think that we have it pretty good. Adding a higher skill factor to classes is great, but how do you measure how much skill potential is inherent in each class? And how do you account for other circumstances like terrain and group combat?

Maybe clearer communication as to the reasons behind changes would help with this subject. Sticky thread in General, mayhaps? Also, I see STD is still on the Disciple changes. :V
 

PewPewPewLasers

PewPew
Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Location
CANADA
It is not always, Warrior beats rogue, rogue beats caster, caster beats warrior. It is more based on skill that it is class, (IMO)
a good ninja, should beat a bad samurai. A good beguiler should beat a bad bard. A good dragoon should beat a bad wizard. It is more based on actual pvp skills, (hit ratio, blocking, etc) then it is just spamming skills on other classes. Or at least, I think it should be that way. Although, some skills for some classes, are designed to counter other classes attacks. For example, a warriors disarm is designed to beat a rogues attacks, for the few seconds they are disarmed. A rogues (ninjas) eviscerate, is designed to counter warriors, with it going through armour.
PvP should be based on actual skill, not just spamming skills that people consider to be, "OP"
 

malmenca

Diamond
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Armor is inherently broken in Minecraft since the patch in which Mojang altered armor (I can't recall which patch.) Everyone on HC complained about it, nothing was done, and here we are again.

Edit: Anne Frankly there isn't much HC can do because in order to alter armor they would have to introduce a downloadable mod of sorts.
 

kevinlive

Legacy Supporter 2
Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Location
Norway, Vardø
Armor is inherently broken in Minecraft since the patch in which Mojang altered armor (I can't recall which patch.) Everyone on HC complained about it, nothing was done, and here we are again.

Edit: Anne Frankly there isn't much HC can do because in order to alter armor they would have to introduce a downloadable mod of sorts.
Or, you could lower warrior's hp.
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
Right, and the VAST majority of the server are warrior specs simply by coincidence.
That don't mean he ain't tired.

Instead of illustrating what you think should happen, try and put a little more substance to it. Explain why it should be that way, and what could happen to make it the should.
 

malmenca

Diamond
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Or, you could lower warrior's hp.

True, I'm just pointing out HC can't do shit with armor, there are options for nerfing/buffing for the classes, but armor is pretty much unchangeable ( which piece a class can wear is totally configurable.)
 

STDs4YouAnd4Me

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
That don't mean he ain't tired.

Instead of illustrating what you think should happen, try and put a little more substance to it. Explain why it should be that way, and what could happen to make it the should.

I don't think anyone has been more active in 'whining' the last couple weeks than me (albeit, I think I have at least been constructively critical). I just suggested an hour ago in-game chat that everyone gets a 5x HP multiplier to make fights essentially last 5 times longer. That way, skill might prevail more often than it does now instead of it's current situation (stab stab, skill, stab, stab, skill, die). Mana would need to be tweeked though otherwise every class would ran out of mana mid-fight.
 

PewPewPewLasers

PewPew
Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Location
CANADA
I don't think anyone has been more active in 'whining' the last couple weeks than me (albeit, I think I have at least been constructively critical). I just suggested an hour ago in-game chat that everyone gets a 5x HP multiplier to make fights essentially last 5 times longer. That way, skill might prevail more often than it does now instead of it's current situation (stab stab, skill, stab, stab, skill, die). Mana would need to be tweeked though otherwise every class would ran out of mana mid-fight.
At the release of Warshard last map, the damage was multiplied by 9, and the hp by 10, to try and make combat last longer. For example, Ninjas now have, 900 something hp, (used to be 90 something) and their sword hits 107 (used to be 12)
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
I don't think anyone has been more active in 'whining' the last couple weeks than me (albeit, I think I have at least been constructively critical). I just suggested an hour ago in-game chat that everyone gets a 5x HP multiplier to make fights essentially last 5 times longer. That way, skill might prevail more often than it does now instead of it's current situation (stab stab, skill, stab, stab, skill, die). Mana would need to be tweeked though otherwise every class would ran out of mana mid-fight.
Don't whine. Don't be constructively critical. If something is worth criticizing just focus your constructiveness there.

You have a lot of ideas, which is a good thing. Less to your benefit is that some of your ideas run counter to some of the basic elements of Herocraft and/or seem like they would be ineffective at solving a problem well. I think most of us have had dumb ideas in the past so please realize I'm not attacking you. It's just how it is right now.
 

Algsa777

TNT
Joined
Sep 3, 2012
The idea of making hp much higher seems like a good idea, its annoying when a dragoon has a 100% of beating me as a cleric and the fight doesnt even last 20sec (thats inlcuding my invuln time)
 

Roadkill909

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Location
United States
--snip--
Every class should have advantages and disadvantages. I chose the healer path on day 1 because I had experience with the path on another server. I was expecting that, no matter what path I chose, I will have an equal oppurtunity to beat someone if I crossed paths with them (assuming we're at similar levels).

--snip--

At this point, the Healer class in itself might as well be wiped out completely, especially now that Disciples received that hard nerf a couple of days ago.


As a cleric, I disagree with some of your points. Healers are menaces in parties and incredibly handy in PVE.

With the exception of Disciples, healer specializations are generally useless in solo pvp. Last map, this didn't bother me at all because I choose healer for PVE, raid parties, and mob arenas. However this map mob spawn rates are abysmal and other than the random and rare event, there has been no replacement for mob arenas.

Healers are probably unpopular because how frustrating it can be to use targeted skills on others like scan, antidote, and bandage.Key-binds are barely usable because of lag, typing commands is near impossible in combat, and I don't use item binds because I loathe having to put away my weapon to use a skill. I've made suggestions, even coded a skill, but no progress so far.

Anyways, this thread only gathers feedback on a problem and doesn't really offer a solution. If you want something done, it's more likely that your concerns will be addressed if you post a suggestion and point out what should be changed and how.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top