Suggestion Skills - What makes a class?

[Eldrylars]

Hello, it's me again!​

I am back with the next question on my mind. This is a continuation of my last thread "Upcoming Class Revamp Suggestions" ​

In that thread I bring in for discussion the idea of changing from a tiered character progression to a smooth progression.​

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This suggestion would give each class their "needed skills" early and as your character levels you gain your "icing skills"​

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Please see the previous post to get a better idea of this proposed system​

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What I would like get the communities thoughts on from players that have played the classes what skills they propose their class needs at the base line and what skills would be great to give as they level!?​

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I would prefer that you only post your suggestion for classes you have personally played but I am not the police so post as you will ​

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Although you are welcome to explain yourself I am guessing it will be obvious why you picked what you did. ​

What I am looking for is what you think a class needs to function in it's roll and get those skills in early, then put in skills that are helpful and good but not absolutely essential higher and higher up the leveling tier. If this is done right and if it ever became a reality you could essentially balance pvp for most classes across most levels.​

I will add that this will not make a class more power as they will all end with the same abilities and powers they have now. More powerful skills gained early can be balanced by giving reduced benefits until later so please pick the skills your class needs to function and then work out from there!​

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Here is a handy template to use:​

<Class>


Essential Skills to Function:



Important Skills


"Icing on the Cake" skills

My Example to start off:​

<Cleric>
Essential Skills to Function:
Potion
Smite
Bandage
Scan
Antidote
Pray
GuardianAngel
Revive
Chant
Important Skills
Might
GroupHeal
Invuln
"Icing on the Cake" skills
FullHeal
Dispel
Ampul

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OLD Example!
<Cleric>
Level 1:
Potion
Smite
Bandage
Scan
Antidote
Pray
Dispel
Level 10:
Invuln
Ampul
Level 20:
Revive
Chant
Level 30:
Might
GroupHeal
Level 40:
GuardianAngel
Level 55:
FullHeal
@werwew190 Scycor @WitchOnaRampage @northeaster345 HoldMyPie @maxmaxm @LightningCape @bfittipaldi @Dsawemd @Kainzo @Dazureus @Roadkill909 @leftovers5 @gabizou @Angyles @pandaman7
@Rumblestikk @Ellron23 @Nightroado @Northac @lumont @Sigpit @Danda @EtKEnn @Symbolite @MultiHeartGold bob_de_blastoise @macura @Drastikos @Haxnn @AzenYumCha @Xerot @Oudaiesty @EzMac2099

 

[Eldrylars]

xargun Carlover1234 connormcwood crazydodapie natenate682 forzakenangel Bigbawssman Dreamcycler Weikauno Bobby848 TheSojourner Danielcan kirinelf Rumblestikk Jasquan Multis_Revenge12

I know there are a lot of you out that play Herocraft!​

Please share with me some of your insight!​

What skills are needed for your class to function and what skills are the icing skills to top off the cake?​

 

[Carlover1234]

Merci mon ami! Hmm well I like the idea of a more smooth progression for getting skills. I would also like to say that we should make classes have different levels for when they get skills. Right now most classes have the same cut and dry pattern for when they get skills. Bard is only one of the exceptions. Classes should have different skill patterns to meet their needs and to create a more unique experience.

 

[TheSojourner]

<Ranger>
Level 1:
Potion
Sneak
Kick
SummonArrow
IceArrow
Forage
Level 10:
Wolf
Track
Level 20:
FireArrow
Gills
Level 30:
PoisonArrow
Barrage
Level 40:
BowStrength
Level 55:
Camouflage


Those are just off the top of my head. One thing for certain though, Ranger should definitely get SummonArrow right away.

 

[lioIIoil]

TheSojourner I think ice arrow should be switched with poison arrow.

 

[Multis_Revenge12]

The only thing I have to complain with is beguiler, you arn't really useful until you get plague bomb. Maybe start (or get it at level 10 or so) with plague bomb and have the damage scale as you level?

 

[Eldrylars]

I am chaning the format to a more simplified format so people don't have to be distracted by the levels as that would not be decided by us anyhow.​

<Ranger>
Those are just off the top of my head. One thing for certain though, Ranger should definitely get SummonArrow right away.

Thanks for your time!

Hmm well I like the idea of a more smooth progression for getting skills. I would also like to say that we should make classes have different levels for when they get skills. Right now most classes have the same cut and dry pattern for when they get skills

Which is a good incentive to level but it does not have to be that way

Have you played any class that you could give me a quick and short on what skills are needed to be effective and what skills are top off skills?

TheSojourner I think ice arrow should be switched with poison arrow.

Would you could you copy paste his suggestion with your suggested change? I am going to take all the suggestions after a few days and see where the meeting points tend to be.
Thanks!

The only thing I have to complain with is beguiler, you arn't really useful until you get plague bomb. Maybe start (or get it at level 10 or so) with plague bomb and have the damage scale as you level?

If you have played beguiler could you fill one of these out for me? Please please!
Fill in the skill needed to be effective and then the skills that top off the class?

 

[Multis_Revenge12]

I havn't played this class to 60 maybe RoflcerOfDaLawl SpikesLoL or nonamemajdeath could give some feedback.

 

[Xargun]

<Ranger>


Those are just off the top of my head. One thing for certain though, Ranger should definitely get SummonArrow right away.

Maybe not right away - but no higher than level 5. Its hard to survive on the few arrows you get from killing skeletons as a ranger - especially when our melee is crap.

 

[Rumblestikk]

I'll read this more when I'm not on a jobsite.

 

[Kainzo]

levels are being bumped to 65, fyi

Also - not all skills can benefit from per-level-increase-dmg, but most can...

 

[Eldrylars]

levels are being bumped to 65, fyi

Also - not all skills can benefit from per-level-increase-dmg, but most can...

You could always scale the casting cost, duration and cooldown

Have you came up with and prepared a new skill for each class or is that a ways out yet?

 

[Dsawemd]

I like the intent, but I suspect that by giving players their "needed" skills early you will be removing the incentive to level.

One way to combat this would be to make the new level bump be very rewarding to each class, so mastering retains its get-through-the-grind appeal.

ps. While I do not mean to insult your Paint skills, your graphs are confusingly similar, and I actually believe that the staggered staircase-y graph applies to this suggestion more than the current system (For example: Disciple getting ForcePush and ForcePull at level 10 seems much more like that chunky graph rather than the seamless flowing line graph).

 

[Kainzo]

You could always scale the casting cost, duration and cooldown

Have you came up with and prepared a new skill for each class or is that a ways out yet?

we're pretty close

 

[Eldrylars]

I like the intent, but I suspect that by giving players their "needed" skills early you will be removing the incentive to level.

One way to combat this would be to make the new level bump be very rewarding to each class, so mastering retains its get-through-the-grind appeal.

ps. While I do not mean to insult your Paint skills, your graphs are confusingly similar, and I actually believe that the staggered staircase-y graph applies to this suggestion more than the current system (For example: Disciple getting ForcePush and ForcePull at level 10 seems much more like that chunky graph rather than the seamless flowing line graph).

The incentive would come in with new skills being the smaller part and more powerful versions of the skills as you level. That's how you would get more of a smooth slope. You would see a boost in their functionality by getting a new skill but it would be less then how it is now because the skill would be more limited until you level.

For instance,
Level 10:
Forcepush - You force your target (within 5 blocks) away from you and deal them (10 + 1-per-level) damage.

This means at level 10 when you get forcepush it will only deal 20 damage, where as at level 60 it will deal 70 damage. So for gaining those additional levels your reward is 3.5 times more damage every cast. Thats where the steady slope comes in. I will fix the graph one more time to better show it!

 

[Dsawemd]

The incentive would come in with new skills being the smaller part and more powerful versions of the skills as you level.

For instance,
Level 10:
Forcepush - You force your target (within 5 blocks) away from you and deal them (10 + 1-per-level) damage.

This means at level 10 when you get forcepush it will only deal 20 damage, where as at level 60 it will deal 70 damage.

I understand.
I am comparing the reward of 'getting entirely new skills upon reaching a level milestone' to 'getting a passive damage increase with the skills at each level'. I think that the former is much more appealing and makes leveling more rewarding than the latter.

 

[Eldrylars]

Updated the graph to try to make it a little easier to understand what I am saying.

I understand.
I am comparing the reward of 'getting entirely new skills upon reaching a level milestone' to 'getting a passive damage increase with the skills at each level'. I think that the former is much more appealing and makes leveling more rewarding than the latter.

I understand and I will not say that I think it would be more incentive to level, in fact I suppose I am trying to remove the need for pure leveling.
The biggest incentive to level right now in the game is so your character is playable. I will challenge you that this method is not the best way to run the game. My challenge is to make the process of playing and the process of leveling as flowing as possible. By starting players off with 40% of their class effectiveness already and quickly bringing them to 60-80% you will actually drop the need to level by a lot while still creating a need to level! A level 60 will still most likely floor a level 20 or 30 but, there is an actual chance that the player could fight or help their friends fight.

Like I said to Templar when he said "Strong classes should have a shitty time playing the game until their mastered" Why? Why play a game that is only fun when you reach the end? Why can't the whole trip be fun?
By giving the essential skills to players early and allow them to gain some skills and more powerful versions of the ones they already have from leveling it creates a nice slowed sloped climb until they finally hit Mastery. This way though the whole climb they get to actually play their class instead of not until it's over.

 

[Eldrylars]

Correct my bad writing from my dead brain.

This does not effect me as I have been the same class and mastered since the beginning of the map
Being a Mayor for 6 months I have lost at least 30 if not 50 players after joining my town. They all eventually leave the game because they could not play the game effectively until they leveled until at least 45-50.
Not taking away the rewards from leveling or numbing down the game but starting off the player with the skills they needed to survive and enjoy the process of leveling would have saved at least a dozen of them from leaving.

Either way this is best talked about in the other discussion, this discussion is for people to propose the skills they think classes need to be effective.
I would love to keep debating and or discussing this but lets move it here.

 

[Dsawemd]

Oh. It IS an interesting idea to remove the need for pure leveling but this would be a different direction than Herocraft has always been, rewarding effort and time on the server.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Updated the graph to try to make it a little easier to understand what I am saying.



I understand and I will not say that I think it would be more incentive to level, in fact I suppose I am trying to remove the need for pure leveling.
The biggest incentive to level right now in the game is so your character is playable. I will challenge you that this method is not the best way to run the game. My challenge is to make the process of playing and the process of leveling as flowing as possible. By starting players off with 40% of their class effectiveness already and quickly bringing them to 60-80% you will actually drop the need to level by a lot while still creating a need to level! A level 60 will still most likely floor a level 20 or 30 but, there is an actual chance that the player could fight or help their friends fight.

Like I said to Templar when he said "Strong classes should have a shitty time playing the game until their mastered" Why? Why play a game that is only fun when you reach the end? Why can't the whole trip be fun?
By giving the essential skills to players early and allow them to gain some skills and more powerful versions of the ones they already have from leveling it creates a nice slowed sloped climb until they finally hit Mastery. This way though the whole climb they get to actually play their class instead of not until it's over.

While I see what you are saying, I would rather see this problem solved in a different manner. Such as the Dungeons or HeroBoss stuff. The reason leveling is a chore is not because you don't have your skills, but because there is no actual PVE on Herocraft. If you add PVE content, there is no need to alter skills in the way you describe.

I am more on the side of Dsawemd here. It's the RPG standard to acquire new skills as you "grow in power". To be given everything at once and have it be lackluster from the beginning is boring and uninteresting. You no longer get the rush of "Yes! Now I have <skill here>!"

Even with your suggestion, you will still find players needing to be "maxed" for your class to be playable. The fact of the matter is, there is no need for your primary class other than PVP. Without PVE content, your health, your damage, your skills--they're all completely worthless. They're just meaningless fluff that serve to make you feel better about yourself.

Until PVE content is created, the issue you described will still exist. This system is not the answer, and I don't think it's a good idea. Simply re-arranging the level at which you receive skills is the better solution until we actually see some content updates.