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Suggestion Significantly reduce rent for shops in spawn/trade district

Do you think the Herocraft economy is fun/good in its current state?

  • Could be better.

  • Its fine the way it is.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
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16
#1
Introduction:
Hello, my name is StrikerDude and i've played herocraft on and off since I was a freshman in high school. I'm now a junior at a university. So obviously i've played herocraft for a really long time. This suggestion is about something that feels like it has been missing from the last couple of maps that I have played on. The following is simply my observations, and reasoning I used to reach my conclusion.

As I was wandering around spawn I noticed that there were really only 5-6 shops in total scattered across spawn. This kinda makes spawn feel like mostly empty/filler space. I liked how in the older herocraft maps there was a trade district filled with shops. While these shops were not always in stock, it was nice to see a spawn that was somewhat lively and it was fun to search for the cheapest products.

I honestly feel like this server is missing a large economy. While that may not matter much to some people, it was part of the experience of choosing a profession. Leveling up my profession just doesn't have as much incentive anymore because I probably wont be able to afford a shop.

The current rent rates for shops honestly feel like a hurdle. Buying a shop in spawn is a risk, people might not buy your products and the rent could just drain your bank account. If the rent prices are reduced then I have no doubt in my mind that more shops will open because the risk to the shop owners will be reduced.

My argument


Main Argument/Conclusion:

We need to significantly reduce rent prices for shop plots in the trade district

Premises:
  1. More lively spawn (current spawn just feels large and mostly empty besides the upper area)
  2. Larger Economy = More fun (Current economy feels pretty small, mostly seems like it is trading between individuals. Also more shops = lower priced products)
  3. Adds another layer of depth to the game
  4. Professions will feel more meaningful
  5. A livelier spawn will attract the attention of more newcomers and leave a better impression.
Counter - Argument:
  1. Herocraft should be difficult, high rent prices adds to that difficulty.
  2. The fact that there are other shops in spawn already, shows that it is possible to create profitable spawn shops.
  3. Spawn will not be more lively, because the active player base is simply smaller than it used to be. Also larger economy will not be possible without larger numbers of players.
  4. In the past herocraft has never actually had a large economy, and my miss observation is due to my own reminiscing.
Rebuttal:

  1. Yes Herocraft should be difficult and hardcore. However, when a certain aspect of a game diminishes significantly, then the fun that people derived from that aspect of the game also diminishes. I claim that the difficulty (high rent prices) is too high because it diminishes an aspect of herocraft (the economy, lively spawn etc...).
  2. While there are shops in spawn already, there are only a few. (I'd like to know if these shops are even profitable personally). Also, in order to have a large economy and lively spawn there will need to be more than few shops. Perhaps we could compromise and only temporarily decrease rent prices, at least until a lot more shops open up.
  3. While we do have a smaller player base now, if we lowered the rent prices we could still create a larger economy. Then after a while the larger economy could attract a larger player base.
  4. Perhaps I am wrong, and herocraft was never like that. Well then lets lower rent prices and create a lively spawn anyways.
final thoughts/conclusion:
Perhaps I am completely wrong, and the shops in spawn are totally lucrative. However, I honestly feel like if I made a shop, it would be a struggle to make a profit. I'd really like to know what everyone else thinks, so if you have a relevant idea/thought leave a comment please.

ps; It's 1;37am where I am so please forgive any spelling errors, or jumbled ideas. I think everyone who reads this will get the main point. Also If I'm not supposed to tag you for this, sorry admins, first time i've posted on the forums in really long time.
 
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
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Location
Spokane, WA
#2
@Kainzo @Danda @Admins

I was just going to write a request similar to this and pleasantly found this thread posted just moments prior by @Strikerdude

Economy.jpg

The trade district is as dead as a doorknob, and with the global market now being specific to Merchants (aka "Black Market"), the methods of exchange in HC are abysmal at best. I mirror what was posted above. Please, immediately adjust the rents in the trade district to either one week or even *two* for the same cost. We *need* a vibrant trade district, and at this time, there are literally five shops open for business. The daily tax is ridiculous, especially for the going price and the upkeep that it requires. Please make this an auto withdrawal, and it is my humble request that it is kept at the price it is at for two weeks of trade district rent. If you need a money sink, *please* locate a different place to take away money from the population, but don't do it in the trade district.

This is absolutely necessary for HC to build and thrive. We suffer enough with low daily numbers (max 40-50), which makes it difficult for a trade district to function in the first place; with the daily taxes to sell one's wares so high, it is a nail in the coffin.

Please change the rental rates immediately and make it top priority.

Thank you,

-yavool
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Likes
140
#3
Economy dead because i'll sum up in a few key points:
- Buying boosts gets you money from pot (artificially generated)
- Money (currency) then becomes worthless
- Items then become worthless
- Economy inflated as heck, everything worthless
- GG
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Likes
261
#4
Economy dead because i'll sum up in a few key points:
- Buying boosts gets you money from pot (artificially generated)
- Money (currency) then becomes worthless
- Items then become worthless
- Economy inflated as heck, everything worthless
- GG
While I agree the money attained from boosts really puts a dent on the economy, I wouldn't go as far as saying it becomes "worthless". All in all, the economy has never been great on Herocraft, and it especially sticks out this map.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
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261
#5
What are the costs anyway? I keep seeing you say it's high, but I'm curious about the costs. I've never had a problem acquiring money on Herocraft, and this map especially the nugget drops from killing mobs is set at 100%. It is extremely easy and quick to acquire money.
 

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Likes
16
#6
Economy dead because i'll sum up in a few key points:
- Buying boosts gets you money from pot (artificially generated)
- Money (currency) then becomes worthless
- Items then become worthless
- Economy inflated as heck, everything worthless
- GG
I agree that the economy is inflated. However, nearly every MMO ever has this problem, and there are ways of dealing with it. Also, it's my understanding that the pot is generated by the player base donating money to the pot. Since we're not actually printing money, it's not the cause of the inflation.
 
Last edited:

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
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#7
What are the costs anyway? I keep seeing you say it's high, but I'm curious about the costs. I've never had a problem acquiring money on Herocraft, and this map especially the nugget drops from killing mobs is set at 100%. It is extremely easy and quick to acquire money.
I can't give you an exact number right now because I won't be home until after work and school. However, even though you could generate the rent purely by voting and killing mobs. That's not exactly the point, the idea is that the shop should generate a profit and be able to pay for itself, otherwise what incentive is there to create a shop?
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
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#8
I can't give you an exact number right now because I won't be home until after work and school. However, even though you could generate the rent purely by voting and killing mobs. That's not exactly the point, the idea is that the shop should generate a profit and be able to pay for itself, otherwise what incentive is there to create a shop?
If you're not generating a profit then put the blame elsewhere; Supply and Demand. Clearly there is not a demand for what you are supplying, or one that isn't as big as you'd hope. Perhaps this is due to a small player base, or a player base who are new/dumb and don't understand the following;

1) your shop exists
2) prices in general
3) the benefit of owning what you are selling

I am a town owner who has only 1 other semi-active town member. I have yet to buy anything from a shop, because I rely on myself. Perhaps I am an exception, but I have never seen a need to purchase anything from shops. This exact scenario is echoed to towns. If your town is running properly, then the town alchemist will provide your town with potions, the farmer will supply everyone with leather, the enchanter with enchanted items, etc.

Don't blame shop prices, this is not the issue. If you want to make 500c I would suggest you kill mobs at T6 for less than an hour. There's your problem.
 

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Likes
16
#9
If you're not generating a profit then put the blame elsewhere; Supply and Demand. Clearly there is not a demand for what you are supplying, or one that isn't as big as you'd hope. Perhaps this is due to a small player base, or a player base who are new/dumb and don't understand the following;

1) your shop exists
2) prices in general
3) the benefit of owning what you are selling

I am a town owner who has only 1 other semi-active town member. I have yet to buy anything from a shop, because I rely on myself. Perhaps I am an exception, but I have never seen a need to purchase anything from shops. This exact scenario is echoed to towns. If your town is running properly, then the town alchemist will provide your town with potions, the farmer will supply everyone with leather, the enchanter with enchanted items, etc.

Don't blame shop prices, this is not the issue. If you want to make 500c I would suggest you kill mobs at T6 for less than an hour. There's your problem.
Edit (12:03pm pst) Your absolutely right, currently supply and demand is an issue and only the shops that sell the products with the highest demand (I.e tools, weapons, food) will survive. However, if we reduced the barriers to exchange like I proposed (reduce rent that shop owners are charged for owning a spawn plot) then shops that target market niches and shops that provide products that have less of a demand could open up. Also your right that the player base probably doesn't even realize that shops exist because you have to explore and look around. But if more shops opened up, then the player base would be more likely to notice the trade district. Also new players won't understand prices but with more shops they will be able to reference other shops to determine what a standard fair price is.

That being said:

My point isn't that we should lower rent prices so that shop owners could generate a profit. My point is that a large economy in herocraft (map wide economy rather than scattered individual local economies) is a fun dynamic to the game that is currently missing because of poor methods of exchange. Yeah you can trade with your townies or message people on trade chat, but having a vibrant marketplace would be attractive to new comers. Not only that but being able to build a shop and compete with other shops is something that some people consider fun. My solution to this problem is that we lower rent prices. The problem isn't that people can't get the items that they want, it's just that many people feel like an economy would be a fun dynamic to the game and in order for that to happen there needs to be an easily accessible method of exchange.
 
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what777

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Feb 5, 2012
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#10
Prices in beta were way cheaper, they're about 2x-3x as expensive now.

(for example, the most expensive tent, was 125c per week I believe, and it's 50c a day now.)

I brought this up at map start, but admins thought the new prices would be good, but it killed all my motivation to make a shop in the TD.
 
Joined
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#11
Prices in beta were way cheaper, they're about 2x-3x as expensive now.

(for example, the most expensive tent, was 125c per week I believe, and it's 50c a day now.)

I brought this up at map start, but admins thought the new prices would be good, but it killed all my motivation to make a shop in the TD.
Stop.

Vote once a day : 40c
Kill 'maybe' 20 mobs : 10c

Problem solved.
 

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
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#12
Stop.

Vote once a day : 40c
Kill 'maybe' 20 mobs : 10c

Problem solved.
You are missing the point... The point behind having a shop is to make a profit. If I need to vote, kill mobs, or mine in order to keep a shop running then I'm not making a profit. So why would I bother opening a shop if I need to do extra work to keep it open?

Example: I go mining everyday to afford the 25c a day I'm charged for rent. Or I could just close the shop and keep the money I gain from mining. In this case, since I'm not making a profit the shop is actually causing me to lose money.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
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#13
You are missing the point... The point behind having a shop is to make a profit. If I need to vote, kill mobs, or mine in order to keep a shop running then I'm not making a profit. So why would I bother opening a shop if I need to do extra work to keep it open?

Example: I go mining everyday to afford the 25c a day I'm charged for rent. Or I could just close the shop and keep the money I gain from mining. In this case, since I'm not making a profit the shop is actually causing me to lose money.
clearly ur shop isn't good enough then. ur prices must be too high or ur items must suck
 

Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
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Jan 10, 2012
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#14
clearly ur shop isn't good enough then. ur prices must be too high or ur items must suck
Yeah I guess that's one way of looking at it, but it's not really a good way to look at it because of the current state of herocraft. Since herocraft has a low amount of active players currently, shop owners will have a small amount of customers. Since shop owners are having a small amount of customers, they are having less people buy from them. So shop owners are having a hard time making a profit due to high rent prices and small amount customers. If you want more shops to open up in the trade district, we should get more active players on average. However, since drawing in more active players is very difficult, we should lower rent prices until more new players come to herocraft.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
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#15
You are missing the point... The point behind having a shop is to make a profit. If I need to vote, kill mobs, or mine in order to keep a shop running then I'm not making a profit. So why would I bother opening a shop if I need to do extra work to keep it open?

Example: I go mining everyday to afford the 25c a day I'm charged for rent. Or I could just close the shop and keep the money I gain from mining. In this case, since I'm not making a profit the shop is actually causing me to lose money.
Your shop isn't doing well because the only time Herocraft is active is when there's a boost. They're not spending that time shopping around for bread.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
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#16
Your shop isn't doing well because the only time Herocraft is active is when there's a boost. They're not spending that time shopping around for bread.
If you read over the initial post you can see that his implications aren't specific to his shop whether it be successful or not. That being lets focus on the bigger picture that Strikerdude is addressing using his own experience. Obviously we can all see that the lack of players directly results in the lack of an economy and that there is an issue with the amount of players being directly connection to experience boosts. To address these issues I agree with strikerdude in that we should reduce the cost of shops in order to boost the player driven economy instead of relying on individual methods. Fun servers are servers where you can interact with players in more ways than just grinding and mining.
 
Joined
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Location
Spokane, WA
#17
Plain and simple: if there is a single vacant shop/hut, then the economy is not being used to its fullest potential. I took a look just this morning, and the marketplace is at less than 10% capacity. This is not in any way, shape, or form good for the game of Herocraft. The price of the shops and huts needs to be reduced to the point where supply is slightly under demand. The easiest way to do this is to change the duration of the shop rental from a tedious "per" day to a "per 7 days" or "per 14 days."

As above, I recommend increasing the shop duration to every seven or fourteen days with the cost of the shop for that time remaining the same as is currently posted. Enforcement of their actual use as shops is necessary, as is enforcement that they are not being used for storage.

Thank you,

-yavool
 
Joined
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Location
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#18
@Kainzo @Danda any change we could get Admin feedback on this thread?

Thank you,

-yav

Plain and simple: if there is a single vacant shop/hut, then the economy is not being used to its fullest potential. I took a look just this morning, and the marketplace is at less than 10% capacity. This is not in any way, shape, or form good for the game of Herocraft. The price of the shops and huts needs to be reduced to the point where supply is slightly under demand. The easiest way to do this is to change the duration of the shop rental from a tedious "per" day to a "per 7 days" or "per 14 days."

As above, I recommend increasing the shop duration to every seven or fourteen days with the cost of the shop for that time remaining the same as is currently posted. Enforcement of their actual use as shops is necessary, as is enforcement that they are not being used for storage.

Thank you,

-yavool
 

Danda

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#19
@Kainzo @Danda any change we could get Admin feedback on this thread?

Thank you,

-yav
Honestly I feel like the problem isn't the rent prices more the fact that there isn't enough demand for items in general. People have lots of money but they don't spend it.
Think about it, how often have you had the need or want to purchase something this map?
Do you ever see people advertising things for sale in trade chat?
The problem is greater than that of rent costs however I don't have any ideas at present on how to stimulate the economy. Sure some adjustments may be needed in the future but I feel we need other solutions first.

I think our main problem is that mobs are providing too much loot to the point where everyone has everything in abundance as it's easier to gain loot than it is to lose said loot.

Additionally I'd argue that your statement on all the shops being rented is false. I don't believe we currently have the active player base to support all the shops being used.
 
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Strikerdude

ICE ICE ICE!
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#20
Honestly I feel like the problem isn't the rent prices more the fact that there isn't enough demand for items in general. People have lots of money but they don't spend it.
Think about it, how often have you had the need or want to purchase something this map?
Do you ever see people advertising things for sale in trade chat?
The problem is greater than that of rent costs however I don't have any ideas at present on how to stimulate the economy. Sure some adjustments may be needed in the future but I feel we need other solutions first.

I think our main problem is that mobs are providing too much loot to the point where everyone has everything in abundance as it's easier to gain loot than it is to lose said loot.

Additionally I'd argue that your statement on all the shops being rented is false. I don't believe we currently have the active player base to support all the shops being used.
Yeah I agree that there is a lack of demand for items in general. However, if rent prices were lowered then shop owners could lower their prices. Which may be enough to get people to buy more. Especially since there are some items (runestones, glowstone, leather) that still have high demand and are still able to generate the shop owner profit.

I don't agree that mobs are providing too much loot, mainly because most of what mobs drop is gold nuggets and fairly useless items like arrows, bones, and rotten flesh. Yeah they drop the occasional peice of armor, so maybe that's a problem but it's still not enough to sustain a player unless you grind constantly.
Anyways the main problem for the economy is the small player base. So the best solution is to bring back players. But until then I still think the best bet is to lower rent prices because the fact is that we have a small player base and getting new players back will be difficult.

Also, even if you disagree that this isn't the best solution. It is still a simple solution that we could test for a period of time and see if it works. (Perhaps when next big update comes along). Especially since it doesn't come with any enormous drawbacks, other then making the game very slightly easier.
 
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