Suggestion Running / Kiting Still Dominant Tactic in Herocraft - Suggestion

[Dakinara]

I have beat this drum many times but i wanted to offer a broad base solution this time for comment. In my opinion, pvp combat in minecraft is forever plagued by constant running away due to the very mechanics of combat. Melee attacking stops sprinting (although this may not be as big an issue with sprint button in 1.7), drawing a bow slows you immensely, casting a spell with a warm up slows you immensely, and dealing damage to an enemy knocks them away from you. All these factors add up to essentially, if someone wants to run away from you, they generally can unless you have some unfair advantage, be it movement skill they dont, or a speed pot, etc. But take two classes with the same skills,equipment, attributes, and inventory items - if one wants to run from the other, he can, because the combat mechanics make it so the aggressor will be forever losing ground to the runner. There are just very few abilities in game that snare / root targets to make catching back up feasible, and I believe only one of them is a projectile (icebolt). For clarification, I am not in any way against kiting - kiting is a fun mechanic that increases the strategy of fights. I am against pure running and pursuers having very limited ways to catch up.

I think this could be somewhat ameliorated by granting every class in game (subject to debate, see below) a 10 second cooldown, fireball like projectile that would root a target hit in place for four seconds, breaking on damage. This sounds op for sure, but i think this can be offset by giving the ability a massive resource cost. I am thinking 600-650 endurance for principally endurance based classes, 300 mana for mana based classes, and / or some combination thereof for classes like pyromancer / runeblade, etc, that rely on both. In 1v1 confrontations, this massive resource cost would be very restrictive and make you question whether you want to risk pursuit or just let them go. However, when multiple attackers are chasing a single runner, this ability would greatly improve the current situation in game where that guy running is probably just gonna get away and / or combat log.

The following classes i have concern giving this ability to:
1) Ranger - simply put, ranger can do a lot of damage without really needing to use stamina or mana, and if he can root a target to get ground back and start firing away, this could be very problematic. Would love to hear ideas on how this could be balanced for rangers, or if rangers should just be left out. Bard and Ninja could potentially fall into this category too for the same reason.
2) Druid, wizard, beguiler and necromancer - these classes currently have roots or other forms of crowd control, do they really need another root? As a druid, i would prefer entangle be replaced with a projectile ability, but not sure if others would share my opinion.

Other classes you have concerns for? On the surface giving a 10 second cooldown root to everyone certainly would change the combat mechanics of the game greatly, but to me the goal would be to make the resource cost high enough to where it is of situational use, with the primary obvious use being catching that guy 10 blocks ahead of you that you never would otherwise.

 

[MultiHeartGold]

If you give every/nearly every class a 4-second root to stop people from running away, it would also work the other way around, making it possible for the runner to use it and get free 4 seconds to make it pretty much impossible to catch up. In my opinion, it would end up being too counterproductive against the purpose you are suggesting it for.

 

[Dakinara]

If you give every/nearly every class a 4-second root to stop people from running away, it would also work the other way around, making it possible for the runner to use it and get free 4 seconds to make it pretty much impossible to catch up. In my opinion, it would end up being too counterproductive against the purpose you are suggesting it for.

But as i indicated, the primary purpose is not for 1v1 situations, its for multiple people chasing a single person. And remember - the root is projectile based. It would inherently take more skill for the runner to root someone by quickly turning around, hit the chaser, and maintain sprint, than for the chaser, who is just aiming for some guys backside as he runs away.

 

[Dakinara]

I also made it a root rather than slow as the game root mechanics tend to make it where you cant really move / face your pursuer until the root ends. I dont think this is a perfect solution by any means, and if anyone else has ideas id love to hear them. I just find the current running mechanics unsatisfying in general.

 

[Dakinara]

Oooo... brainstorm idea. Based on how backstab works, it seems possible to determine if an attack is hitting the front / rear of a character. What if this root ability only worked if it hit the back of an enemy, and did nothing if hit the front? Would resolve most issues that would make this ability actually help running i think.

 

[DanielcanLoL]

Kiting is the main think of ranged classes...

If you let melee classes catch you or close the gap you , you will die. Ambush them or if you think that you can handle with them in flat area try to dodge iceballs.

 

[lioIIoil]

Almost every class has a stun, slow or a mobility buff.

 

[Dakinara]

So no one relates to the numerous instances where you are running behind someone, 10-15 blocks away, at basically the same speed, and will never ever catch that person? I personally find the circumstance extremely common and annoying, but if everyone feels otherwise, so be it.

And very few classes have any kind of snare / stun / root / crowd control that is usable beyond 10 block range. Here is list of all classes with crowd control type abilities effective at 10 blocks or more:

1) Berserker - none (even lunge has a realistic max 10 block range, and it does not slow or disrupt target in anyway)
2) paladin - none
3) dreadknight - none
4) dragoon - spear - 12 block range
5) ninja - blind - 12 block range, grappling hook - theoretically could hit someone from quite far but with the extra drop not very realistic
6) ranger - icevolley - huge drop compared to normal arrow, not very good range. grappling hook - see ninja
7) runeblade - none
8) bard - none
9) pyromancer - maybbbbe chaos orb on a huge stretch but good luck hitting someone more than 10 blocks away with chaos orb.
10) wizard - icebolt, entangle, i guess blizzard (lol)
11) necromancer - none
12) beguiler - quantum leap, piggify (both 15 block)
13) cleric - lol
14) druid - theoretically earthwall i guess but it is just not large enough in most circumstances to do any major slowing
15) bloodmage - none
16) disciple - none realistically (40 int forcepull >>)

This is why dragoon, wizard, ranger, and ninja will continue to be endlessly popular. The movement abilities they have allow them to basically disengage from any fight, anytime, and you wont catch them unless you are also a dragoon, wizard, ranger, ninja, or bard (yay for one group movement ability), sometimes beguiler. And notice these classes are also the ones with the longest range snare / crowd control abilities. Once they are more than 10-15 blocks away, you are essentially out of luck. Herocraft world pvp in a nutshell.

 

[AzenYumCha]

Kiting is a mechanism some classes do greatly well in. It's a tactic to some players because it gets them to victory.
However, the running factor is pretty annoying, yes, the high mobility classes do have the advantage to avoid wilderness PvP. In organised, arena-style PvP, they really cannot run but only kite.
By the way, I am partially for and against a projectile root, only because I don't want to require adjusting myself to an adjusted skill but with practice I think it'd be worth it since it'll have a significantly longer block range.

 

[LightningCape]

11) necromancer - none

Web and DoTs?

 

[Dakinara]

web is only 8 block range, dots i would not consider crowd control, they dont really help anyone catch up to the player, and even then, decay is only 9 blocks, plague 12. Since plague has a warm-up, you actually lose ground on the enemy by casting it if they are running. Classes with movement abilities can move out of those ranges in the press of a button.

 

[Glacial_Reign]

I rather not give all classes stuns. I don't know about you but I rather not get stunned locked every fight I get into. There's no skill in that

 

[lioIIoil]

The only classes that I see having trouble catching up to people are support healers. I don't agree with giving all classes a root.

But dude Druid has entangle?

 

[Dakinara]

this is not a stun, its a root that breaks immediately on damage, and would only work if you hit someone in the back with it when they were running away from you, AND it would have a very high resource cost.

Druid entangle has the same problem almost all of the snares / crowd control abilities have - it only has an 8 block range. Wizard blink will immediately move them 12-14 blocks away, same with jump, backflip, etc. The movement abilities are just much better than the snares / roots available.

 

[STDs4YouAnd4Me]

5) ninja - blind - 12 block range, grappling hook - theoretically could hit someone from quite far but with the extra drop not very realistic

I thought the 12 block range on Blind was a mistake, but nope, you're right.

Brb while I quit herocraft. Can ninjas be in a better spot than it currently is? A 12 block range? Don't make me puke.

 

[Dakinara]

soooo many dislikes on this post lol. I am open to and would love to hear other suggestions, but the current system is not balanced. I am fairly confidant that if you took the total number of master ninja, ranger, dragoon and wizards together, it would outnumber the number of masters from the twelve other classes combined.

 

[Jack_Reacher]

If a huge group can't catch a target the way things are now, then they're bad. Rotate through your stuns, roots, slows, forcepulls, spears, etc - in a group you will have multiples of these. It's still tricky to hunt down some mobility classes in certain situations, but the problem is not nearly as widespread as you are making it out to be.

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Brb while I quit herocraft

We NEEEEEEED you, STDs! T_T ninja nerf incoming

 

[Dakinara]

well, in my opinion the problem is essentially this - there are multiple classes really good at running away. There is only one class specifically good at allowing groups to catch targets running away (bard, but not as useful now that melodic bindings is only slow ii). There needs to be more "catch" abilities to match the large number of run abilities in game.

And it really doesnt matter if your group has 200+ non mobility classes, they wont catch a mobility class once they get more than 10-15 blocks away lol.

 

[j2gay]

Let's make it so that people who don't want to fight because they will likely die can't run away and will surely die. This sounds like a great idea. (Sarcasm)