Runeblade Overhaul / Revamp

[Delfofthebla]

Balance Team

Here is the Runeblade concept I am proposing.

I think that, with the exception of a small few, every single skill that the Runeblade currently has should be removed and tossed aside. It would be a complete revamp of the entire class, with an entirely new system to accompany the new abilities.

Similarly to the current Runeblade, he would be a melee spellcaster--one with the focus being on melee combat abilities rather than mid to long range spells. Each of their abilities would be an actual spell (and thus, silenceable), but the spell itself would do absolutely nothing without the aid of their melee attacks.

Envenom is a skill that works like this. You activate the ability before combat, but the poison effect isn't actually applied until you attack the enemy. It's a "preparation" skill that aids you in combat. This is the foundation of the new concept.

I believe that I was able to properly create this system during my last week of learning Herocraft skill programming. I created a system that allows you to "bind" runes to your weapon, that will be applied upon left clicking an enemy.

Example 1:
Player uses the "ToxicRune" skill. this applies a toxicity rune to their weapon. Upon left clicking a target, he will now poison them. After one left click, the rune has been consumed, and their future left clicks will function as normal, and have no additional effects.

Example 2:
Player uses "ToxicRune", "VoidRune", and then say, "IceRune". The first left click he deals will poison the enemy, the second left click will silence the enemy. The third left click will slow the enemy. After this, once again, their left clicks will function as normal.

Example 4:
Player uses "VoidRune", "VoidRune", and then another "VoidRune". This is the interesting one. Being able to silence a target repeatedly for so long is clearly too strong. But is it? Indeed, that would be a very long silence, but they'd have to actually remain in melee range in order to keep it. What if "VoidRune" had a 5-10 second cooldown? This would mean that if he wanted to silence a target and do nothing else, he'd have to prepare these runes ahead of time. Long before any actual fighting started.


The idea is to give them a plethora of abilities, but constrict them to using only a small few during a fight. Constrict them with cooldowns, constrict them with mana costs, constrict them with how "often" the runes actually apply. Give them versatility, but don't give them complete control.

In the system I propose, each "Rune" skill would have very different mana costs, very different cooldowns, and very different effects. Make the player feel as though he is a true Runeblade. He has the power to infuse powerful magic into his blade, and he can do so as he sees fit, but he isn't a mage--he's a melee fighter.

I personally feel that 3 runes is a good number for the Runeblade to have. But this of course could be increased or lowered as necessary.

The system would also function as a "queue". So let's say they have a maximum of 3 runes that they can apply. They apply Toxic, Void, and then Ice. The order that the runes would be applied would be like so:
1. Toxic
2. Void
3. Ice

If, after this, they used say, I dunno, "ArcaneRune", it would look like this:
1. Void
2. Ice
3. Arcane

It "pops" the last rune off the list, and puts the new one on the end.


-------
Here are some basic abilities I thought of for the Runeblade runes:

Toxic Rune: This is just a simple poison tick--basically envenom.
Void Rune: This is a rune that silences. (And possibly deals damage).
Ice Rune: This is a rune that slows (And possibly deals damage).
Arcane Rune: This is just a basic damaging rune.
Rune of FlameShield: This would work just like the current flameshield, but require you to actually hit your target to apply it. (I personally think this would help balance the ability out a bit as well, so it works out that it only applies "on hit" rather than the current method.)

Fire Rune: This would be fire damaging ability. This means that the Pyromancer could "block" it with flameshield. But it's also important to state here that this would NOT be a fire ticking rune (and thus, wouldn't be negated by fire resistance potions). "Fire Tick" is, in my opinion, a very poor mechanic for anything other than Fireball, and has no presence in melee abilities. Additionally, with ability for the Runeblade to use "Fire Aspect" weapons, I think that making this skill a fire tick would prevent it from ever being used by players.

You don't necessarily have to force the entire class into this system either. In fact, I think that that would be a bad idea. Forcing them to have absolutely nothing outside of left clicking is a little silly, and would probably lead to an "unfun" experience.

There are a wide arrange of abilities that don't require you to use your sword in order to function.

Some random ideas:
Phase Shift (Blink): This would be their gap closing ability. I think it's actually It would function very similarly to the Wizard's Blink skill, though possibly force it to only work on the horizontal plane. You could perhaps give it a shorter range, and possibly longer cooldown. I think that giving them a more "mage esque" form of mobility suits the design of the class better. Instead of "One", "WindWalk", "Jump" or even "Backflip".

Kainzo has expressed that he is not comfortable with the amount of exploits that occur from Blink, but I'm curious what every else thinks here. I personally don't feel as though blink is "exploity" at all, and I think it's a perfectly functioning ability that is a great tool for Wizards. Having something similar on the Runeblade sounds to me like a really neat idea, and could be done without it being too overpowered.

Runeword: Carry over Runeword to the new Runeblade. It still synergizes really well with his concept, and Kainzo has mentioned his desire to keep the skill.

Siphon Life / Drain Soul: This would actually just be a renamed "DuskBlade". The current DuskBlade ability, funnily enough, doesn't actually require a blade to use. You can simply use it whenever you want, regardless of whether or not you are carrying a sword. While this is somewhat silly, I think it would be a good addition to the new Runeblade concept. It gives them an "inbetween" skill use that isn't tied to their left click spam, while also allowing them to defend themselves slightly if they are weaponless. I thought about including this as a "Rune" ability, but I think keeping the ability function as it currently does is the better option.

Perhaps the damage / lifesteal amount could be altered as well, but it's hard to say at this stage.

Sword Damage Changes: I also think that their melee damage should be lowered by a large amount, to emphasize the dependence on their "magic" in their fighting style. This means that when focusing on more utility based runes (such as slows or silences) their ability to kill a target will be hindered greatly.

Another interesting thought I had was regarding the Heroes HeroMod. Seeing as how the "Mana Bar" and "Party Frame" UI elements were created specifically for the HeroCraft server, you could technically do the same with the Runeblade RuneWords. It would be a bar, similar to the mana bar, that shows which runes the player currently has in queue--and updated as they used them. This would be a really great improvement to the functionality of the class, as well as a great addition to the HeroesMod. Though, that's just a thought, I don't know just how extensive the work on that would be.

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Now, there are definitely several balance and playability concerns with this system, and I haven't neglected that fact.

I think that with proper cooldown / mana cost placement, you can balance the more powerful combinations that are possible with the system.

In the end, I think it's a good idea. I actually play the current Runeblade class on Herocraft, and, in terms of PVP, it's actually one of the "better" classes on the server. (Overpowered, even.) But the problem with it is that it just isn't unique--it isn't interesting. It's a pieced together abomination that doesn't have much that's special or unique to it, and that's why I decided to design this system.

Anyways, lemme know what everyone thinks, and if you wanna ask any questions--feel free.

I'll probably end up editing this post as time goes on to reflect the discussion / decided changes.

 

[leftovers5]

I think this revamp is excellent, my commentary as follows:

• A three rune queue system is the best bet. Two is definitely too few and four seems to encompass four out of the five proposed runes, which leads to not enough micromanaging. Runeblade should be all about rune management.
• I'm not sure if I would like Blink on Runeblade. I do agree that a gap closing skill might be needed to fit this new playstyle, but I too share Kainzo's concerns about it being too exploity. What about One?
• Back in 2008, I mained Deathknight on WoW for awhile. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it may be a good model to use. I know how much Kainzo hates comparing Heroes to WoW, but I definitely think the rune + runic power model that Deathknight presents can apply nicely here. I don't entirely remember the system, but I believe runes are consumed and runic power is generated. This could be extended as such: 1. Rune A is used, generating X runic power (mana). 2. [Non-Rune Skill like DuskBlade is used] consuming X runic power.
• Do you think Firewave fits into this equation at all? I personally hope not, heh.
• What will the level 60 (for that matter 65) skill(s) be?

 

[Delfofthebla]

I think this revamp is excellent, my commentary as follows:

• A three rune queue system is the best bet. Two is definitely too few and four seems to encompass four out of the five proposed runes, which leads to not enough micromanaging. Runeblade should be all about rune management.
• I'm not sure if I would like Blink on Runeblade. I do agree that a gap closing skill might be needed to fit this new playstyle, but I too share Kainzo's concerns about it being too exploity. What about One?
• Back in 2008, I mained Deathknight on WoW for awhile. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it may be a good model to use. I know how much Kainzo hates comparing Heroes to WoW, but I definitely think the rune + runic power model that Deathknight presents can apply nicely here. I don't entirely remember the system, but I believe runes are consumed and runic power is generated. This could be extended as such: 1. Rune A is used, generating X runic power (mana). 2. [Non-Rune Skill like DuskBlade is used] consuming X runic power.
• Do you think Firewave fits into this equation at all? I personally hope not, heh.
• What will the level 60 (for that matter 65) skill(s) be?

Thanks for the reply Leftovers. I too, share the same thoughts on the number of runes.

Blink / Phase Shift / Windwalk / One:
My problem with One / Windwalk is that it is...too powerful. It allows you to completely strafe your enemy and dance around as you pummel them to death. When I play the current Runeblade, it is not uncommon for me to completely run circles around my opponent spamming abilities and left clicking them like crazy without them even being able to see me. It's just...too fast. For a first person combat game, I don't think it's fair that you can have that much mobility when directly in another player's face.

Additionally, I just don't think it fits the new theme. The Runeblade is a Mage at heart. Sure, he fights with his sword, but all of his power stems from his magic. This is why I felt that a "Weaker Blink" was right up his alley. Obviously, Kainzo has the final say on this, but I really, really really think that the new Runeblade should have a blink like skill. He just wouldn't feel "complete" without it.

Now, I'd really like someone to explain to me what the deal is with "Blink Exploits", because I don't feel like there are any of them in existence. When it comes to Ender Pearls, there is absolutely no question. They cannot be added back into the game due to the ridiculous amount of exploitation that comes from them. I wouldn't suggest bringing back Ender Pearls in a heart beat--they're just not safe. But Blink, blink doesn't give me that impression. Hell, I don't even know what exactly blink does that you two are afraid of. Additionally, if there is exploiting being done involving Blink, why do Wizards still have it? Shouldn't it be removed?

Leftovers, I'm sure you're familiar with the escapades that my town and our allies have done in terms of "clever skill usage". During the Ender Pearl fiasco, we were the primary culprits who caused it to become so well known. We used Ender Pearls to go through LWC doors, glass blocks, glass panes, iron bars, dirt walls, and even stone ceilings. It was flat out retarded, and we did it all while being told that the current ruling was that it was legal.

You can't do any of that with Blink. You can't go through blocks, you can't go through doors, you can't go through anything. The only possible "exploit" with blink is that you can, at specific angles, teleport through a 1x1 hole. And this was something that was deemed both fair and legal do to with Ender Pearls. Is being able to do this with blink really so bad?

Those are my thoughts on that anyways. Please give me your input when you can.

WoW DK Rune System:
Regarding the WoW DK, I too played it, and I am very familiar with the system. While I think that it was a great system that was very fun to play, I do not think that it will mesh well with Herocraft. In that system, a player would have to keep track of which runes he has used, how much runic power he has, and which runes he has left. And he'd have to do this through the chatbox, a mere "textual" update.

Blizzard has the advantage of creating UI elements and adding in special effects / notifications. While Heroes has definitely been able to get close with Fireworks / Sounds / HeroesMod, I don't know if it's necessarily a good idea to create such a complex system where there isn't one already. Even with my proposed system, I worry that Players will forget "which runes" that they have queued up, and possibly become frustrated during / after a fight because of it.

And honestly, I just think that keeping the Runes themselves + a Mana bar simply fits better. Unlike the WoW DK, this Runeblade isn't using his runes as a resource--they are the skills themselves. The WoW DK uses his "runes" to generate "runic power". It's all resource management--the runes themselves aren't actual abilities.

But with my proposed changes, the runes are the abilities. They aren't a resource, they are a skill. Each unique rune has a unique effect. So for this reason, I don't think bringing in a runic power resource is the best bet.

FireWave:
Hmm, Firewave. It's hard to say really. I would personally like to think that no, they should not get it, but at the same time, it serves a purpose to the Runeblade that I haven't really solved in my proposed concept.

The Runeblade has absolutely no ranged viability at all. He can't use bows, he has no projectiles, and he has no "mid to long range" damaging skills. If he is to do any damage at all, he has to get up close and personal--no questions asked.

Firewave allowed the Runeblade to have very very slight ranged capabilities. You could initiate with it, and if you were juuust far away enough to not be able to attack, it was sometimes able to seal the deal for you. To remove these capabilities from the Runeblade is a little unfortunate, but I think that it might be the best idea.

Firewave just doesn't really fit anymore in my opinion. And neither does a straight up "FlameShield" ability. The current Runeblade adopts too much from the Pyromancer in my opinion, despite the fact that there really isn't any "connection" between the two classes.

At the end, I think as long as their gap closing ability is reliable in putting them at their target, there won't really a need for Firewave. It has it's use in the current class, but in the future, I'm hoping it won't be necessary.

Lvl 60 / 65 skill:
As Kainzo posted in the main class overhaul thread, this doesn't need to be a major ability. Sure, I thought of giving them something crazy like "RuneBurst" where they apply every rune all at once, but that seems unnecessary and overpowered.

What's not to say we can't give them a final rune at max level? I think that VoidRune is probably one of their more powerful abilities, and would be a suitable skill to place at the end. Doing so would prevent the Runeblade from being able to silence until he has reached max level, but that just might be a bullet that everyone would have to bite.

Or, you could even make it "RuneWord". The ability seems a bit lackluster at first glance, and with the current Runeblade, it often goes unused in a real fight. However, for the new concept, I think it will have a lot more usage, and probably be a lot more powerful due to the reliance on specific runes to deal damage. Adding this at the end would really give the class a final feeling of completion in terms of combat, without stripping them of the important stuff early on.

 

[Licksterboy]

Amazing, just amazing! I personally think this will make runeblade quite unique and much more interesting in PVP.

I really don't have anything to add, leftovers covered anything important, BUT...

Addressing the speed boost issue, perhaps we should now compare runeblade to LoL. Yorick is a champion (in LoL) who duels with ghouls. One of his specific ghouls can be casted on an enemy, and at that very second, Yorick gains a slight speed boost and will keep the speed boost until his ghoul dies or just despawns. Maybe a skill could be created so that you can "ready" the rune, and then when you hit an enemy, you gain a slight speed boost. This will make it so you can only gain the speed boost when in melee range and cannot cast it whenever like windwalk or one.

In addition to that, I have a question. If we want to stick with 3 runes, surely the class will have other types of skills, correct? All in all, this will construct a well, fun, and balance class.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Amazing, just amazing! I personally think this will make runeblade quite unique and much more interesting in PVP.

I really don't have anything to add, leftovers covered anything important, BUT...

Addressing the speed boost issue, perhaps we should now compare runeblade to LoL. Yorick is a champion (in LoL) who duels with ghouls. One of his specific ghouls can be casted on an enemy, and at that very second, Yorick gains a slight speed boost and will keep the speed boost until his ghoul dies or just despawns. Maybe a skill could be created so that you can "ready" the rune, and then when you hit an enemy, you gain a slight speed boost. This will make it so you can only gain the speed boost when in melee range and cannot cast it whenever like windwalk or one.

In addition to that, I have a question. If we want to stick with 3 runes, surely the class will have other types of skills, correct? All in all, this will construct a well, fun, and balance class.

League of Legends is a very different game with very different gameplay mechanics. Even with that said, I personally believe that there is a lot that can be gained when comparing two different games types. It's important to consider all ideas, even the crazier ones. However, I personally feel that the concept you described is one that just wouldn't work well in Herocraft.

I have two major concerns with a system that functions like Yorick's.

1. Potions
Potions are a vanilla mechanic that have a very real impact on PVP, and should be considered when making any balance changes to the server (in my opinion). The ability to "naturally acquire" a Speed I for 8 minutes, or a Speed II for 1:30, must be accepted. It's also important to understand how Herocraft abilities interact with these potions.

Let's take One / Windwalk / Accelerando as examples. These are all implementations of the "Speed III" effect. Note that this isn't obtainable by any potion or other Minecraft mechanic. We, as players, can only hope to achieve Speed III by using Herocraft abilities.

Speed effects do not stack, and they do not clip. What I mean by this is, let's say that there was an ability that granted "Speed II" for 5 seconds. You cannot drink a Speed II potion, use the ability, and have it increase the duration of your speed effect by 5 seconds. This is typical behavior for these kinds of things, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. But clipping is something that is normally expected, but does not actually occur on Herocraft.

If a player has a "Speed I" buff that lasts for 6 minutes, and he uses an ability that grants him "Speed III" for 10 seconds, the expected behavior is that Speed I gets removed, and the Speed III replaces it. This does not happen. Instead, the ability is wasted, and no changes are made to the player buffs.

So what am I getting at exactly? That having several "bursts" of small speed boosts (whether they be I, II, or III) would not behave well with potion effects. I don't necessarily enjoy the idea of having him forgo all potion usage simply because he would be unable to fully benefit from his speed buff mechanic if he used any.

2. No "Guaranteed" Mobility
If a system like the one you described was used, the Runeblade would have no method of gaining movement speed outside of actual combat. He'd have to get the jump on his target in order to stick to them, as he is nothing more than a water bucket without it. This would make travel time a pain, and initiation a pain. The real goal of a mobility skill on the Runeblade is to grant him something to close that initial gap--not keep an already closed one closed. (That role would be better suited to the use of Ice Rune).

While I think it's great to consider new and unique ideas, I personally think this would just be an unpleasant experience overall. He needs a cold, hard, guaranteed mobility skill that will give him the ability to get to the fight when he needs to.

----


Regarding the "3 rune" thing, I don't mean to say that they will only have 3 rune skills, but that the Runeblade will only be able to "queue" 3 runes onto their sword at any given time. In my original post, I laid out 6 possible run ideas, and that's not to say that there cannot be more (or less). It's just that they will only be able to "apply" 3 of them to their weapon during any given moment in game. If they try to apply more than 3, it will pop the oldest one off the list. Does that make sense?

 

[Licksterboy]

Regarding the "3 rune" thing, I don't mean to say that they will only have 3 rune skills, but that the Runeblade will only be able to "queue" 3 runes onto their sword at any given time. In my original post, I laid out 6 possible run ideas, and that's not to say that there cannot be more (or less). It's just that they will only be able to "apply" 3 of them to their weapon during any given moment in game. If they try to apply more than 3, it will pop the oldest one off the list. Does that make sense?

Ah, that makes much more sense and will work out great in game.

As for the speed boost, I understand your counter, I was just trying to think of new ideas. I'll try to think of some more but perhaps some sort of teleport or blink skill will be best.

 

[Kainzo]

I don't think firewave fits in at all. It was more or less a place holder skill.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Well, it's been a crazy week or so, but I feel as though the Runeblade Design is now complete. I've been doing some extensive playtesting and tweaking the concept / design along the way, and I believe I've finally got a presentable class that could fit into the Herocraft server. Many of the players that have been hopping on test have told me how much they liked the class, and that has been a pretty cool experience for me.

SKILLSET:
Scan
level: 1

Sneak
level: 1

RuneAbsorption:
level: 1
mana: 0
cooldown: 1 second

Description: Activate to consume your weapon's imbued Runes and regain a portion of the mana spent at a 35% rate.

ToxicRune:
level: 1
mana: 7
cooldown: 5 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Toxicity. Upon Rune application, this Rune will poison the target for 20 damage a second, for 3 seconds.

FireRune:
level: 15
mana: 25
cooldown: 10 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Fire. Upon Rune application, this Rune will deal 105 fire damage to the target.

IceRune:
level: 30
mana: 30
cooldown: 10 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Ice. Upon Rune application, this Rune will deal 40 magic damage and slow the target for 2 seconds.

VoidRune:
level: 35
mana: 30
cooldown: 13 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Void. Upon rune application, this Rune will damage the target for 40 damage and then silence them for 1.5 seconds.

Blink:
level: 45
max-distance: 7
mana: 12
stamina: 7
cooldown: 12 seconds

Same as normal blink, but with the altered distance / costs.

Duskblade:
level: 55
mana: 20
stamina: 7
cooldown: 10 seconds

Damage / healing are currently same as live. (May need some changing to fit with the new concept better.)

Runeword:
level: 60
mana: 20
cooldown: 25 seconds

Same as Live.

---------------

Mechanic talk: It's important to take into account that I have placed an internal cooldown on applying runes. You cannot apply runes more than once every second. This can be changed via the config setting inside of the "Rune Absorption" skill, if desired.

---------------
As all of you should notice, the current test version does indeed have Blink. Naturally, it is a much shorter version with a longer cooldown, but as stated before in this thread, Kainzo expressed his desire to not give Blink to another class.

I stand by my belief that Blink is a perfectly functioning ability with no exploitation capabilities, and I also believe that it fits in with the Runeblade design perfectly. I really would like to keep it in. However, Kainzo, you naturally have the final say here. I would like to know now, so that I can make changes to the class while there is still time left. Will you allow the new Runeblade to keep blink, or do you still stand by your original decision?


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If Kainzo gives it the go ahead, I think it's ready for some balance comments. Otherwise, it's back to the drawing board for me.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Balance Talk
---------------------------

So, I currently have the Runeblade set for lvl 60 so that I could compare it to the other lvl 60 classes. Obviously, things will change a bit once we move all the classes up in levels.

I really encourage all of you to hop on the test server and fight both as a Runeblade, as well as against Runeblades, and see how you do against them. I've been testing it a lot, and I think that it's in a pretty good place, but overall, it's probably a bit too powerful. It can feel really weak if you're not on top of your game, but if you really make an effort to stay on top of your rune applications, your ability to burst is quite insane.

Here are my current concerns regarding the balance of the Runeblade.

Most of my testing has been done in 1v1 situations. I've done a few 2v2 fights, and random clusterfuck teamfights, but nothing too major, and I definitely didn't sample enough classes. 1v1's are definitely it's strong suit, but it really needs to "prepare" to fully take on certain classes.

Overall, players just really have to be on their toes to beat a Runeblade now. He's a low HP, low armor class, but as I said, his burst can reach really insane levels if you let him run free. Is it as clear cut burst as the current Live version of Runeblade? No, but it can get close...if you let it.

Fighting Wizards is...interesting, to say the least. If the wizard isn't really paying attention, or if he tries to use any warmups, he gets absolutely destroyed. It isn't even a fair fight--it's just sad. However, if the Wizard brings his "A-Game" to the table, the Runeblade can't do a single thing to stop him. Between their root, their Icebolt, and their superior blink, they have complete control over the fight. The Runeblade just doesn't have any means of getting to a Wizard that uses his skills properly. I really like this because it forces Wizards to use their other skills more, but it also just feels pretty balanced in terms of class capabilities--either one has the chance at victory, but the better player will claim it for sure.


Some random thoughts:
Toxic Rune can basically be spammed while your other runes are on cooldown, which I kind of like, but at the same time, it allows for really large bursts of damage.

Deciding which runes to apply is really only important for initiation, and even then, it's only important when fighting certain classes. After the initiation, you're free to spam them like crazy with little regards to the order you do so. The most efficient way to fight is to ensure that your stuff is never off cooldown. You just spam spam spam and left click left click left click to the best of your ability. Interestingly enough, fighting this way is a huuuge drain on your mana pool. A Runeblade who really utilizes his class to it's maximum capabilities will not be able to sustain himself in a teamfight. So while it's kind of stupid that they can fight this way, it doesn't pay off in the larger fights (or even continuous fighting, like in deathmatches) Kind of a cool outcome overall, in my opinion.

Stamina doesn't play much of a role for the class. I thought about adding stamina costs to all abilities (similar to Bard), but I really don't like how that actually plays in game. It feels really clunky and out of place. Why would it cost stamina to cast an ordinary spell? With that said however, I ended up squeezing some stamina costs into Duskblade and Blink. This really doesn't effect gameplay that much, but I felt like I should attempt to get it in somehow. I basically want it so that if you initiate with blink and then immediately Duskblade, you won't be able to sprint for a short time due to low stamina. This will prevent them from immediately bursting a lower health class as hard as they normally would be able to do to a melee.

The class is really strong against warriors, due to the large amount of armor penetrating damage. However, it's really hard to test the balance of these fights due to ALL abilities going through armor currently. I really think that needs to get fixed soon.

------
Anyways, those are my ramblings (for now). I'd like to see what you all think, and if you have any balance input regarding the current version that is posted on test. Lemme know.

 

[Kainzo]

Well, it's been a crazy week or so, but I feel as though the Runeblade Design is now complete. I've been doing some extensive playtesting and tweaking the concept / design along the way, and I believe I've finally got a presentable class that could fit into the Herocraft server. Many of the players that have been hopping on test have told me how much they liked the class, and that has been a pretty cool experience for me.

SKILLSET:
Scan
level: 1

Sneak
level: 1

RuneAbsorption:
level: 1
mana: 0
cooldown: 1 second

Description: Activate to consume your weapon's imbued Runes and regain a portion of the mana spent at a 35% rate.

ToxicRune:
level: 1
mana: 7
cooldown: 5 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Toxicity. Upon Rune application, this Rune will poison the target for 20 damage a second, for 3 seconds.

FireRune:
level: 15
mana: 25
cooldown: 10 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Fire. Upon Rune application, this Rune will deal 105 fire damage to the target.

IceRune:
level: 30
mana: 30
cooldown: 10 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Ice. Upon Rune application, this Rune will deal 40 magic damage and slow the target for 2 seconds.

VoidRune:
level: 35
mana: 30
cooldown: 13 seconds

Description: Imbue your blade with the Rune of Void. Upon rune application, this Rune will damage the target for 40 damage and then silence them for 1.5 seconds.

Blink:
level: 45
max-distance: 7
mana: 12
stamina: 7
cooldown: 12 seconds

Same as normal blink, but with the altered distance / costs.

Duskblade:
level: 55
mana: 20
stamina: 7
cooldown: 10 seconds

Damage / healing are currently same as live. (May need some changing to fit with the new concept better.)

Runeword:
level: 60
mana: 20
cooldown: 25 seconds

Same as Live.

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Mechanic talk: It's important to take into account that I have placed an internal cooldown on applying runes. You cannot apply runes more than once every second. This can be changed via the config setting inside of the "Rune Absorption" skill, if desired.

---------------
As all of you should notice, the current test version does indeed have Blink. Naturally, it is a much shorter version with a longer cooldown, but as stated before in this thread, Kainzo expressed his desire to not give Blink to another class.

I stand by my belief that Blink is a perfectly functioning ability with no exploitation capabilities, and I also believe that it fits in with the Runeblade design perfectly. I really would like to keep it in. However, Kainzo, you naturally have the final say here. I would like to know now, so that I can make changes to the class while there is still time left. Will you allow the new Runeblade to keep blink, or do you still stand by your original decision?


-------
If Kainzo gives it the go ahead, I think it's ready for some balance comments. Otherwise, it's back to the drawing board for me.

Dont see the need for scan... rather not populate the list when its not needed, as they wont really have time to use it.
Balance Team

 

[Warmachinexp]

From talking to alot of other people they were also confused at Runeblade having scan. I'm guessing kick was taken out due to voidrune coming in?

 

[Licksterboy]

Dont see the need for scan... rather not populate the list when its not needed, as they wont really have time to use it.
Balance Team

Yeah... even though we want it to be a "caster" rogue class, scan seems unnecessary. Also, is blink going to be permanent? I feel that a better type of gap closer could be made, at the moment though I am out of ideas. Other than that the whole rework looks and works amazing!

 

[Dsawemd]

Is there any way to code Blink as a physical movement, like a very horizontal Jump, rather than a short teleport?

Medium range Charge to within 4 blocks of an enemy? If not aimed at an enemy, shorter dash forward.

 

[victim130]

As I said earlier, if you keep blink in as their gap closer, it needs to be like 4-5 blocks down from the 8-11ish it is at now for wizards.

Is there any way to code Blink as a physical movement, like a very horizontal Jump, rather than a short teleport?

Medium range Charge to within 4 blocks of an enemy? If not aimed at an enemy, shorter dash forward.

See I like this idea, but we need to keep in mind its a magical class rather than a strong one (Unless we gave some magical means to the jump/charge) I think blink (Renamed to something more enchanter/Runeblade like and nerfed) will do its job.

Maybe something like this: RunePortal: "The user enchants a block (Distance) ahead of them and teleport to it."

On that note, why not make it a toggle effect? Allowing them to maneuver from two spots within like a 5 second time span? So it can function like blink, but also has a twist on it to help them dodge or disrupt fights.

Just some input, let me know what you think.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Dont see the need for scan... rather not populate the list when its not needed, as they wont really have time to use it.
Balance Team

From talking to alot of other people they were also confused at Runeblade having scan. I'm guessing kick was taken out due to voidrune coming in?

Scan was added in to drive home the idea that it was more of a "caster". It's a skill that hardly has any practical use, but it's not bad to have. He doesn't necessarily need to have it however. If you'd rather he didn't, we could take it out.

As far as kick is concerned, you are correct Warmachine. The decision to remove it was due to how strong VoidRune can be if stacked multiple times. Adding in another silence was not something I wanted to see. It would be...too strong.

Yeah... even though we want it to be a "caster" rogue class, scan seems unnecessary. Also, is blink going to be permanent? I feel that a better type of gap closer could be made, at the moment though I am out of ideas. Other than that the whole rework looks and works amazing!

I'm pushing for blink to be permanent, yes. I find it to be the perfect gap closer for the new design.

As I said earlier, if you keep blink in as their gap closer, it needs to be like 4-5 blocks down from the 8-11ish it is at now for wizards.


See I like this idea, but we need to keep in mind its a magical class rather than a strong one (Unless we gave some magical means to the jump/charge) I think blink (Renamed to something more enchanter/Runeblade like and nerfed) will do its job.

The current Blink for Runeblade is set to be 7 blocks, with a 12 second cooldown. It also has a large stamina cost. If the Runeblade is using DuskBlade along side with Blink, they will not be able to sprint for a moment after they finish blinking again.

The Runeblade has no ranged capabilities, whereas the Wizard is entirely ranged based. In addition, it is not nearly as far as a Wizard blink (13 blocks) and has a longer cooldown (3 seconds longer). And finally, he has the risk of not being able to sprint when spamming it during a fight. I believe that this makes the current skill balanced for the class.

Is there any way to code Blink as a physical movement, like a very horizontal Jump, rather than a short teleport?

Medium range Charge to within 4 blocks of an enemy? If not aimed at an enemy, shorter dash forward.

This is actually more of what I was thinking when I originally proposed the concept to Kainzo, but after him mentioning his concerns with exploitation, and after playing with the current Runeblade on the test server, I'm less inclined to implement this kind of ability.

If a new skill has to be coded, it's possible that we could end up with some gamebreaking glitches, such as "charging" through walls or doors, or dropping players through floors. Perhaps that's a needless worry, but I'm confident that Blink "works properly" and that makes me more inclined to keep Blink rather than creating a new skill.

But other than that, I just think that blink is...more fun. It's fun to teleport up small hills, over walls, on top of roofs, ect. It makes chasing fun, it makes escaping fun--it's just a really cool ability. Due to the long cooldown and short range, I really don't find it to be all that out of place, either.

Maybe something like this: RunePortal: "The user enchants a block (Distance) ahead of them and teleport to it."

On that note, why not make it a toggle effect? Allowing them to maneuver from two spots within like a 5 second time span? So it can function like blink, but also has a twist on it to help them dodge or disrupt fights.

Just some input, let me know what you think.

This actually sounds pretty cool, but I worry that it will be really clunky and inaccurate in a real fight.

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There seems to be a lot of concern regarding Blink. Have all of you had the chance to playtest it on the server yet? Once you get a feel for how it performs first hand, I think it's possible you'd see it in a better light.

But who knows, perhaps I'm at the point to where I am too biased to really be able to say. I'd like to see what Kainzo thinks about all of this.

As a side note, I do think that both Duskblade and Blink need to be renamed to suit the new concept.

 

[Dsawemd]

The point of suggesting a physical "throwing of the player" was to remove the potential of exploit. I have never heard of Jump being used to go through walls.

 

[victim130]

The point of suggesting a physical "throwing of the player" was to remove the potential of exploit. I have never heard of Jump being used to go through walls.

I think blinking through stuff isn't possible anymore, but I may be wrong.

 

[Delfofthebla]

The point of suggesting a physical "throwing of the player" was to remove the potential of exploit. I have never heard of Jump being used to go through walls.

Oh you mean to code it velocity based, not as a teleport.

I really don't like this idea for a couple of reasons. I'm sure you've heard the countless cries of outrage from Dragoons and Ninja's over the past month or so. The mobility skills of these classes are practically broken due to two issues.

1. Lag Spikes
2. Nocheat

These things really make these classes frustrating to play. When using these skills, there are two possibilities of failure that have absolutely nothing to do with the skill itself. You could have either a tiny bit of server lag at the exact moment you try to jump, or nocheat decides to kick you in the balls. If either of these things happen, your skill becomes worthless. And in both cases, it actually causes more more harm to you than if you didn't even use the skill at all. You lose the stamina, you lose the time/effort spent on using the skill, and in the case of nocheat, you actually get rewound to your original position, wasting even more of your time.

There is nothing more frustrating than these things happening to you. I do not wish to add another potential skill that will have these issues. I dare say that they are worse than exploits, though I doubt everyone would agree with me on that.

But in addition to these points, I think that I'd prefer keeping the Runeblade skills to be "magic" oriented, rather than physical. Blink feels magical, it feels like a caster skill. It doesn't cause nocheat rubberbanding, and it isn't affected by lag. These are many of the reasons I am attached to the idea of giving him the skill.

 

[Dsawemd]

While I agree with the reasoning of working within the bounds of No-Cheat and server lag, I am frustrated that non-speed buff mobility skills are limited on one side by lag/plugin tethering and on the other side by teleport exploits.
Is it impossible to clear either of these barriers? I know nothing about coding, perhaps it is right now.

What if Runeblade had a very short range QuantumLeap skill? This would allow an even shorter (and less exploitable) range than an effective mini-Blink would.
PortalRune: On sword hit, the Runeblade turns 180 degress as he and his target swap positions.

EDIT: victim130 if blinking through things is no longer possible, what exploits is Kainzo referring to in his hesitance to implement more blink skills? edit: don't post exploits obvs.
also, i like your RunePortal idea as far as a creative mobility skill for RuneBlade goes, I think it could be exploited but I dont know^^^

 

[Kainzo]

The point of suggesting a physical "throwing of the player" was to remove the potential of exploit. I have never heard of Jump being used to go through walls.

Velocity is based off of TPS - which is highly volatile at times. We don't want to use it anymore than we already do.

I won't be discussing exploits here - don't ask.