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Remove deep freeze

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
I am saying that individuals are not unskilled, but rather due to the lack of skill in the class skilled players cannot actually be differentiated from unskilled players. Deep freeze removes the difference between good and bad geomancers.

Off-topic: Diffuse, using the term "skill" in minecraft PVP is idiotic at best. PVP on this server requires "skill" but it's such a low need that the word shouldn't be used. Be it using a "rooting" skill to stop a target in it's place and insta-killing it, or spamming your sword as fast as you can to get a kill, it's all the same. As for casters being, easier to play; it completely depends on the persons preference, experience and lagg/computer. For most, I assume it would be harder. Lagg, being the leading downfall of casters. And no, 90% of caster classes suck. Not because of the class, but because of the lack of PVP experience. The ones that kill you are either the casters that bother to PVP, which are decently knowledgeable about there class, or the ones who simply do root/ deepfreeze combo's. Which DON'T 1 shot you, though close(ish)

On-topic: Deepfreeze is a great skill for Geo's but as most have seen, it IS overpowered. Though, taking it out of the would be foolish. What it should be, is 11 damage and a 50% slow for 4 seconds on use, with 8 more, extra damage if hit with a fireball. The skill should break on ALL damage. So it gives the caster the chance to decide between a fireball with 8 extra damage, or something else he'd rather set up depending on his mana. This will give, some manoeuvring ability and a not, guaranteed a hit; though chances greatly increased. However, the burst damage, SHOULD stay close to the same. Acquiring it should somehow be more difficult. Perhaps my suggestion could work.
 

Popeyepoop1

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Casters being able to hit through armor is simply op. A wizard, for example, only has to come out with a few spells bound to his items (dirt, torch, etc junk) and he could whoop most specced classes. Any warrior spec fully geared in armor usually dies before he can even hit the wizard since his spells go right through armor. Seriously, a wizard can Root ---> Fireball ---> Bolt ---> Fireball ---> Blink away if needed ---> Replenish (if even needed) ---> Root ---> Fireball ---> Bolt. Usually the target is dead at this point, even if they are a DK with full gear on.
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Casters being able to hit through armor is simply op. A wizard, for example, only has to come out with a few spells bound to his items (dirt, torch, etc junk) and he could whoop most specced classes. Any warrior spec fully geared in armor usually dies before he can even hit the wizard since his spells go right through armor. Seriously, a wizard can Root ---> Fireball ---> Bolt ---> Fireball ---> Blink away if needed ---> Replenish (if even needed) ---> Root ---> Fireball ---> Bolt. Usually the target is dead at this point, even if they are a DK with full gear on.

Spells that don't go through armour make Warrior classes OP. So instead of bitching, try constructive feedback. Making spells go through armour was the correct decision on Kainzo's part. Though, because of this, skills need to be toned down or tweaked to where the class isn't able to come from the graveyard and smash every fully geared enemy in sight. As a Maxed Geo/Wiz I know fireball does almost as much as bolt. This, should not be so.

My input is this:

  • Bolt needs to stay 30 damage, but should require a diamond hoe to use (Example: a Mage needs his staff to execute stronger spells)
  • Fireball should be cut from 20-25 (Geo FB) / 22-27 (Wiz FB) to 15 base damage with a 19 total with fire tick.
  • Root is where it should be for Wizards, since the nerf. Atta boy Kainzo.
  • Blink, stays as is. Maybe even take out the sulphur cost, and trade it also for the Diamond Hoe (Staff).
  • Geo's Deep-Freeze SHOULD be 10 damage and a 50% slow for 4 seconds on use, with 8 more extra damage if hit with a fireball. The skill should break on ALL damage giving the player to choose if he wants the extra fire damage or set something else up. All this with a 15 second cool down.
I think I covered everything people were claiming was OP.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
I just don't understand why fireball goes through armor. It's a snowball, that just passes through armor, despite it being straight damage, unlike bolt or other warmup skills... I mean if it's gonna do 30 damage per through armor, at least make it so you can't spam it.

Maybe tone the dmg down, cuz I mean if you get in an ocean with a caster and no boat, you might as well /kill

I want to mention also that despite rogue's role as "the caster killers", they can't use kick to stop fireball or deepfreeze. And since rogues get both shitty armor and low health, a spec'd caster can pretty much kill a spec'd rogue in 3 fireballs plus maybe one other armor piercing skill.

Ninjas and Thieves get EscapeArtist, but it has (So I've been told) a 128 second cooldown. while skills like deepfreeze have about a 15 second (?) cooldown. So despite being able to get away once, if said geo/wizard gets deepfreeze/root off again, said ninja/thief is done for.
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
I just don't understand why fireball goes through armor. It's a snowball, that just goes through armor... I mean if it's gonna do 30 damage per through armor, at least make it so you can't spam it.

Maybe tone the dmg down, cuz I mean if you get in an ocean with a caster and no boat, you might as well /kill

Haha, an item made from cold that carries tremendous heat. Weird, eh? It does around 25 with tick damage for all caster spec's. This should be changed to 15. It won't be much more DPS then a Ninja. Infact, it probably less with the assumption that even the best casters miss 1/3 of there shots on hostile human targets. Which, is completely reasonable. And cut's this OP calling down to nothing. If the changes are put into effect, people calling OP will look like inexperienced scrubs.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
Haha, an item made from cold that carries tremendous heat. Weird, eh? It does around 25 with tick damage for all caster spec's. This should be changed to 15. It won't be much more DPS then a Ninja. Infact, it probably less with the assumption that even the best casters miss 1/3 of there shots on hostile human targets. Which, is completely reasonable.
if you deepfreeze someone, and miss fireball, you must have some shitty aim. If you're a smart caster (not saying you're bad ;)), you book it once you use fireball and wait for deepfreeze/root cd, then freeze them and fireball.
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
if you deepfreeze someone, and miss fireball, you must have some shitty aim. If you're a smart caster (not saying you're bad ;)), you book it once you use fireball and wait for deepfreeze/root cd, then freeze them and fireball.

Same could be said for Harm touch, or Empathy.. Or any skill on any given class.. :S

Also, I don't need to book it usually... I just kite my enemies in circles. Not for root, but for mana for damage skills.
 

GreekCrackShot

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
New York
Same could be said for Harm touch, or Empathy.. Or any skill on any given class.. :S

Also, I don't need to book it usually... I just kite my enemies in circles. Not for root, but for mana for damage skills.
okay, I'm going to go fight a caster and use harmtouch on them, then run for 15 minutes and hit him again, despite the fact he's regenerated all his health. Hopefully he'll fall off a cliff or something. (I keed)

I could do a combo of skills on a caster. But I can never get near them cuz they just deepfreeze then spam fireball.

They nerfed range for drainsoul, and that is fine, but I can't get near casters now, so fighting them 1v1 is a pain.

If I can get in range of a caster, then maybe I can kill them, but once df coolsdown, it's just a matter of how bad my lag is, because one more fireball and I'll die.
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
okay, I'm going to go fight a caster and use harmtouch on them, then run for 15 minutes and hit him again, despite the fact he's regenerated all his health. Hopefully he'll fall off a cliff or something. (I keed)

I could do a combo of skills on a caster. But I can never get near them cuz they just deepfreeze then spam fireball.

They nerfed range for drainsoul, and that is fine, but I can't get near casters now, so fighting them 1v1 is a pain.

If I can get in range of a caster, then maybe I can kill them, but once df coolsdown, it's just a matter of how bad my lag is, because one more fireball and I'll die.

Poor example, but I'm glad you understood my point, xD

So it isn't any caster. It's just Geo's. I know how agitating deepfreeze is. Though, in a 1v1 I can work around it (usually). When or rather, if Kainzo reads this.. I'm sure he'll make some sort of reasonable adjustments.
 

Diffuse

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
From a balance perspective I like most of the changes you suggested hollow, but it would make leveling a bit harder for specced casters imo.


PS: Has anyone else been noticing slowing spells doing a LOT more than they should? When I impaled people yesterday they just stopped moving and ice arrow did the same to me.
 

what777

Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
From a balance perspective I like most of the changes you suggested hollow, but it would make leveling a bit harder for specced casters imo.


PS: Has anyone else been noticing slowing spells doing a LOT more than they should? When I impaled people yesterday they just stopped moving and ice arrow did the same to me.

I always get pulled back when slowed, just cant move.
 

Darroes

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
What Greek says is true. While us rogues have high dps we don't really have much in the way of survivability. Both warriors and casters can kill us pretty easily. I think Hollowsith has the best compromise so far. It solves a lot of problems in one fell swoop. Maybe what could be done though instead of just outright nerfing fireballs damage is lowering the amount of armor it penetrates? This keeps your ability to kill monsters and level intact while weakening you against anyone decked out in armor.
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
Perhaps a percentage based on the number of armor points you have in your meter? +5% per whole armor point?

This caps it at 50%, a fully decked out Paladins can have up to 45% resistance and they would take 16x(100-45)%=8.8 rounded to 9 damage plus up to 10 additional damage thanks to fire.

For other examples, full leather provides 3 1/2 or 15% resistance, full chain gives 6 or 30%, full iron 7 1/2 or 35%. At this point I may suggest rounding up for half-points instead of down, making leather 20% and full iron 40%.
 

HollowSith

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
From a balance perspective I like most of the changes you suggested hollow, but it would make leveling a bit harder for specced casters imo.

Well, isn't that what people have been complaining about? Leveling and PVP is to easy for spec'd casters? I just made it harder, lol. Pick a side :p Caster as it is, is a hard class to fight with if you don't use the root/ deepfreeze. Having everything nerf and tweaked a bit will make it very difficult for leveling, but much or balanced for PVP. Lol, if Kainzo did bother to put the chances in, anyone who cried OP when they died to a Wizard/ Geo would just be purely bitching. Same with people who now bitch about DreadKnight. IMO DK's are now almost perfectly balanced with other classes.

PS: Has anyone else been noticing slowing spells doing a LOT more than they should? When I impaled people yesterday they just stopped moving and ice arrow did the same to me.

Actually no, I've noticed it not slowing people down what so ever. I use it and less then 2 seconds later, they start running again. For around 2 days I've noticed it happening while I chase Unholy members around the map. Though, when I got it used on me, it worked fine. I assume it's just lag because of it's inconsistency; from both server and PC at the same time.

It wouldn't surprise me, I play on a toaster with speakers. 25 FPS when no one is around, 12-6 FPS in a fight with another player out side of town and 6-3 FPS while fighting in a town. All while allocating 4 gigs of RAM and playing with Optifine's settings for Max FPS. If only I had a decent computer. If only.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
Same with people who now bitch about DreadKnight. IMO DK's are now almost perfectly balanced with other classes.

I disagree entirely.

They get a long cooldown insta-half health damage ability called Harmtouch. Half of DK's abilities have too high a range and should require melee distance. I also believe Beguilers, being a half-melee-half-caster should have the highest caster health, not the 2nd lowest HP in the entire heroes build. Also, I think they need chainmail, and that Drainsoul, and decay, need to cost more mana. With armor's diminishing returns and a DK properly stocked on Insta-Health 2 potions 3 Specced/mastered classes weren't able to take a single DK down in over a 1 minute time period, also, he was able to simply sink down the to bottom of an ocean after being thoroughly destroyed by 3 specced/mastered people (zoomsz, victim130, and myself) completely used all of our mana to no avail, as he popped potion after potion being thwarted and slung side to side in a tight narrow street for nearly a minute straight.

I'm sorry but that's just bullshit. Either they need about 30% lower health and higher cooldowns and way more mana cost (since they melee hard too) or every class needs a buff to keep up with DK's. That and they need to nerf alchemy pots. JFC. I understand that he's got super high health, mitigation, and has higher DPS per mana than my class, and better melee, and better skills.

I literally have only piggify, and 3-4 fireballs, maybe a couple dispells, and I'm out. That's 60-80 hp, he's got like 110-130 HP, heals 30-40 hp from souldraining me, and deals half my 86 hp during those 3-4 soul drains, then harmtouch and 1 or 2 melee swings and I'm a goner. That's literally like a 20-30 second fight, or he can just crush my skull in while piggified in melee as I unload everything. Honestly though, my melee does what, maybe 5 damage ontop of my 60-80 fireball damage, assuming all 3-4 land?

Beguiler's true skill lie in "Crowd Control Captain" supposedly, but I don't see it unless piggify gets buffed again, we should be able to completely lock down ONE person nearly indefinately. Be able to dispel manafreeze, and purge damage over time spells from our allies, and still have some form of nice offense. I feel strongly on this which is why I suggested the Plaguebomb / Grenade like skill, my greatest hope is that it does enough damage and doesn't cost much mana to nerf our damage-per-mana output.

I still think Beguiler's need a faster mana tick rate, and lower cost/lower damage but more spammable spells. So we are more of a balanced caster. That's if buffing piggify/our cc abilities is a no go. I also believe SonicBoom should probably recieve a buff, even though I can't use it yet, I'm betting that 100% mana for a 6 second silence (1 mana tick) is completely fucking useless as a level 55 skill, and probably has a ridiculously high cooldown.

I picture Beguiler using many low cost spells, grenades, piggify, melee, and a few fireballs to deal damage and kite people. Honestly though, with piggify having a 20-25 second cooldown and only lasting 6 seconds. Just about anyone can close the gap since half the skills in Heroes can target you at range, and to absolutely gaurentee you land spells, you have to close range on piggify, or it'll just patrol out of your line of sight/missile path. Plaguebomb help with this, since it's an aoe explosion, it should land 90% of the time, on someone that's piggified. Again though, our total DPS output can only drop someone with intermediate Health pools. Anyone with 100+ health is going to just rip us apart after our initial piggify+3x-4x fireball. Even if we try to run. We might get kited with root, icearrow, etc. and having so little HP, dispelling it will only delay the inevitable.

My main complaint is twofold, dealing with both my class, and deathknights in general, as I believe a smith/deathknight combo is too Overpowered, combined with alchemy potions that are seriously overpowered.

PS.

Harm II splash potions do about 8 hearts to just about anyone hit by it. If you can afford them, using your combos with them will kill even greek's op ass in about 2.3 seconds. Part of why I believe Alchemy's potions should be maybe something half as useful as it is right now. IE: Insta Health II might restore 6 hearts or so of HP or full HP, but they need a significant cooldown. I know this hurts unarmored people more than armored, but armored targets with high HP are just ridiculous. Deathknights should have about 90 HP if they're going to have life stealing, and insta-attacks on 15 min cooldowns that just kill anyone. Pretty stupid. Their DPS output is too high with their effective mitigation/tanking.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
edit:

either 30% lower hp, AND OR higher mana cost spells, AND OR longer cooldowns.** (clarification)

my melee swings, (about 12 of them) do a total of 5 damage* (in the given situation above)

I also believe Harmtouch AND Empathy are ridiculously OP. Empathy is literally an I-WIN button.

Where's my 15 minute 40 damage instant-cast-mid-to-long-range cooldown? Do I get cookies and milk with that? Perhaps diamond armor and 130 HP?
 
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