Remove deep freeze

[Diffuse]

Geomancers can currently do 70 damage without having to do a damn thing. This 70 damage is not mitigated by armor and has a 15 second cooldown.

Rangers got root removed and are now forced to rely on ice arrow and their high average damage, yet they are still in a pretty good place pvp wise (because range in general is a bad idea for minecraft pvp).

Geomancers do higher damage than rangers yet still get to keep the root which also happens to be stronger than root ever was. Geomancers have no need for deep freeze, it is just a skill that sits there allowing them to destroy anything.

 

[GreekCrackShot]

I agree, but I assumed deepfreeze would only slow, which it does not. It roots like it did before, but breaks on dmg (which is good). It's just a bit unfair when a Dreadknight faces a Geomancer (Good match up, may the best man win) that is unarmed..... I mean they don't even have to punch me, it's just deepfreezem, fireball, icebolt, fireball again. Next thing I know, I'm at 1 heart running for my life until deepfreeze cools down.

You can fill in the rest

If you can come from the graveyard and kill a fully decked out Dreadknight 1v1, there's something wrong. A nerf (that I thought was already supposed to be in..?) for deepfreeze would be a reasonable workaround, we don't necessarily need to yank the skill out of the game.

 

[Darroes]

That is more a problem of casters in general than just Geo's Greek. I do think its a bit ridiculous that any caster can die and be pretty well as deadly walking out of the graveyard as they were before they were sent there. It allows casters to just zerg with minimal loss to their experience and no loss of items. Not sure what the solution to that would be other than adding a reagent to spells. But I digress, I do think Geo's burst damage needs to be looked at for sure. Like Diffuse said the ability to do 70 damage to someone with no chance and dodging/defending is a bit overpowered. That's more than half anyones health. Hell it's almost all of mine, but I'm still only a lvl 23 thief haha.

 

[TicklesTheMighty]

The only nerf DeepFreeze received was a duration nerf from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Now on top of our Icebolt cd+damage nerf, our combo has become DeepFreeze --> Icebolt --> Fireball for 67 damage, a far cry from the ~86 damage we used to deal with our DeepFreeze --> Icebolt --> Icebolt --> Fireball combo. We could likely tack on another Fireball during the Icebolt slow under little ranged pressure, going up to 89-93 damage. Math: 11 (DF) + 15 (Ice) + 22 (Fire) + 11 (DF) + 8 (Burn) = 67.
Geomancer combo: 89-93 damage.

The damage is high, but compare this to a reasonable Wizard combo of Root --> Fireball --> Bolt --> Fireball which I'd also call a pretty safe 89-93 damage (also the Wizard Pulse is much stronger than the Geomancer Pulse and I've heard they tack it onto their combo since it doesn't have to be aimed). Math: 22 (Fire) + 35 (Bolt) + 2-6 (Burn) + 22 (Fire) + 8 (Burn).
Wizard combo: 89-93 damage.

This comparison is assuming that the target is unable to put themselves out, obviously they would still calculate around the same way in the case of rain, nearby water, or a water bucket. Also I'm not a Wizard, so we may need one to come along and point out possible flaws in my made-up Wizard combo. And none of this accounts for Wizard-Geomancer mana discrepancies of course.^_^

To sum it up, I don't think DeepFreeze itself is at all the problem, especially since it only lasts 3 seconds now. I'd say that Wizard and Geomancer overall single-target dps are both at fault here if you guys can't win a fight against the casters.

Edit: As for the "walk out of graveyard and own everyone" problem, I completely agree. I think that a semi-reagent for some of the stronger spells, such as needing to have a hoe somewhere on your person, may be in order. I mean, most non-caster/healer classes are pretty hopeless without their weaponry (possible DK exception here) so why not make the casting-types be somewhat worthless without their weapon as well?

 

[what777]

The only nerf DeepFreeze received was a duration nerf from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Now on top of our Icebolt cd+damage nerf, our combo has become DeepFreeze --> Icebolt --> Fireball for 67 damage, a far cry from the ~86 damage we used to deal with our DeepFreeze --> Icebolt --> Icebolt --> Fireball combo. We could likely tack on another Fireball during the Icebolt slow under little ranged pressure, going up to 89-93 damage. Math: 11 (DF) + 15 (Ice) + 22 (Fire) + 11 (DF) + 8 (Burn) = 67.
Geomancer combo: 89-93 damage.

The damage is high, but compare this to a reasonable Wizard combo of Root --> Fireball --> Bolt --> Fireball which I'd also call a pretty safe 89-93 damage (also the Wizard Pulse is much stronger than the Geomancer Pulse and I've heard they tack it onto their combo since it doesn't have to be aimed). Math: 22 (Fire) + 35 (Bolt) + 2-6 (Burn) + 22 (Fire) + 8 (Burn).
Wizard combo: 89-93 damage.

This comparison is assuming that the target is unable to put themselves out, obviously they would still calculate around the same way in the case of rain, nearby water, or a water bucket. Also I'm not a Wizard, so we may need one to come along and point out possible flaws in my made-up Wizard combo. And none of this accounts for Wizard-Geomancer mana discrepancies of course.^_^

To sum it up, I don't think DeepFreeze itself is at all the problem, especially since it only lasts 3 seconds now. I'd say that Wizard and Geomancer overall single-target dps are both at fault here if you guys can't win a fight against the casters.

Edit: As for the "walk out of graveyard and own everyone" problem, I completely agree. I think that a semi-reagent for some of the stronger spells, such as needing to have a hoe somewhere on your person, may be in order. I mean, most non-caster/healer classes are pretty hopeless without their weaponry (possible DK exception here) so why not make the casting-types be somewhat worthless without their weapon as well?

Maybe decrease the normal damage of spells, and increase them when wearing a hoe. (Wood +1 damage, Iron +2, Gold +4, Diamond +3)?

 

[Aryios]

I think it just needs to be tuned down. Deep freeze needs to be broken on damage and less damage done to the target.

 

[Dazureus]

Maybe decrease the normal damage of spells, and increase them when wearing a hoe. (Wood +1 damage, Iron +2, Gold +4, Diamond +3)?

I'd be 0kay with this. Hoes are a way for Casters to deal melee damage, but that's all they do. Maybe handled a little bit differently, though- A 2 or 3 point setback isn't exactly worth the trouble of getting a hoe.

Could perhaps set it up based on multipliers or something- a Caster's Fireball does 6 with no hoe, Fireball does 6x1.5=9 with wood, 6x2.0=12 with stone, 6x2.5=15 with iron.

 

[Thunderjolt]

I think you guys are missing the whole point of the Caster role.

We are MEANT to do extremely high burst damage, to counter this we are extremely squishy, I myself almost never wear leather armor. If you can get anywhere near me, I'm f***ed. My job is to turn you to dust before you get that chance.

Our lack of initial equipment setup just comes with the territory of playing a class that relies almost solely on skills.

 

[gooscar]

The walking out of the Graveyard thing is half the point of being a caster.

You don't NEED anything, you use skills that work with anything from a fish to a gold block- items are irrelevant.
Casters shouldn't need anything, that is silly- just tone down the damage. But also, don't tone it down much as Thunderjolt says, if a melee character comes even close to a caster they die. It's as simple as that really. A casters damage IS it's defence.

 

[greenliketea]

I totally agree with Thunder, Tickles, and gooscar. Caster's are very squishy and when attacked by close range characters or even a long range character such as a Ranger, were totally screwed. Caster's are also the counter to warriors so they are supposed to be able to kill them easily. I don't think deep freeze needs to be nerfed at all.

 

[Diffuse]

Both geomancers and wizards outdamage rangers so that should not be a big problem. With 80-90 max hp you die relatively fast but that doesn't matter, if you are getting hit more than 5 times by anything but a dragoon or maybe bard then you're doing something wrong. The problem comes with the fact that due to things like deep freeze and root, you remove the possibility of anything ever getting close to you thus removing the only possible weakness you have.

Based on the fact that everyone in minecraft moves at the same speed, root and deep freeze allow casters to permanently stay at range if they aren't confined to a small area or retarded. Deep freeze -> fireball -> icebolt -> fireball kills most non mastered specs, and takes a good 7 hearts out of any mastered spec while being on a 15 second cooldown that you can just sprint away to waste that time.

The damage is a huge problem since they are just shredding through anything, but the biggest issue I have with the 2 specs is that it takes pretty much no skill whatsoever. If geomancers and wizards keep the insane damage that allows nothing to touch them, at least make it so they have to know the spec and be skilled in order to do it.

Theres a fun video to illustrate the idea of how geomancers are operating. It is in world of warcraft terms so just replace these terms:

Scissors = geomancers
Paper = rogues, healers, dragoons
Rock = warriors
When they say scissors are invisible replace that in your mind with rock can never catch up to scissors. (also note that due to this scissors shits on rock)

That is how balance is right now in my mind.

 

[Darroes]

In many cases/games casters use runes or some other reagent to cast spells. In this case I think its needed for balance purposes. Say I fought and killed a caster only a hundred or so blocks from a graveyard. That hardly gives me any time to sort through loot and decide what to keep before he gets back with full hp and mana and I likely haven't recovered from the last fight still. A couple of them could just keep zerging a group until they eventually won. There's basically no risk playing a caster, you don't have to carry a diamond weapon or armor around with you to be effective. I quite like the idea Dazureus posted and think that would be an elegant solution.
Yes casters are very squishy at close range but not really that much more so than rogues so long as you wear armor. You also make it sound really easy to actually stay ontop of a caster long enough to do significant damage. Between being knocked back by fireballs and sprint being buggy its actually quite hard to stay in melee range.

 

[look_out]

Deep freeze isnt the problem its fireball... it does so much damage

 

[gabe cohen]

i can see how the ability of deep freeze is unfair in several opinions however as a geo its our bread and butter you can alternate between close and long range and in close range geos arnt to well off another factor is your ability to summon a dog, between several hits with an axe and a dog a geo can stop one of u, the other will occupy enough time to either thaw out or for them to not do serious damage. i know doogler does just fine fending me off a lvl 40 geo as well without deepfreeze geos would loose battles because mages in general have to deal with lag, geo have a move that can give us a fight ing chance to defend ourselves

 

[Thunderjolt]

Us casters and related specs have to rely on a rotation to obtain our maximum DPS we aren't "unskilled" because of this. Our "snare" skills are to help us catch you in the face with a spell or 2.

My root only slows you down for 4 seconds and breaks on damage. Even with the maximum of 4 seconds that gives you 11 seconds to close the gap and smash my face in. That seems like plenty of time to me, like what was said, I run just as fast as the rest of you, so neither of us are at advantage.

If I'm running so help you God you'd better stab me in the back, you have plenty of time. Just do it before my skills are off cooldown, because you WON'T survive 2 salvos of a specc'd casters fury

 

[Haxnn]

Deepfreeze is fine to stay inside I say, it could be tweaked so it no longer imobalizes but slows and makes jumping impossibe like root does for wizard. It also isn't like there is no way to beat geos, nearly every class has a way to deal with one. For example, all other casters have some form of root/slow, rogues have kick, silencing the caster, beguliers have sonicboom, all healers heal so while the geo is on cooldown they can heal up, paladins have ALOT of survivability so this should be no problem for them and the rest of the warriors have high health, great skills (dragoon jump can mess a geo up).

The point of casters are to deal lots of burst damage (as stated before) but have very little survivability. I view geos as the ones with the most damage yet have no chance traped in a small space with really any other class. Wizards have great mobility AND root. Beguiliers are the helping class plus they have piggify and necros are more of the evil tricky summon demons to come aid them type of class (they also have web). I do agree that damage on geos should be tweaked a little, but not compleatly getting rid of an entire spell.

 

[Diffuse]

Us casters and related specs have to rely on a rotation to obtain our maximum DPS we aren't "unskilled" because of this. Our "snare" skills are to help us catch you in the face with a spell or 2.

My root only slows you down for 4 seconds and breaks on damage. Even with the maximum of 4 seconds that gives you 11 seconds to close the gap and smash my face in. That seems like plenty of time to me, like what was said, I run just as fast as the rest of you, so neither of us are at advantage.

If I'm running so help you God you'd better stab me in the back, you have plenty of time. Just do it before my skills are off cooldown, because you WON'T survive 2 salvos of a specc'd casters fury

I am not saying that the casters are unskilled, just that it requires no skill to be a geomancer/wizard atm. Not trying to insult any of the casters, just pointing out that the skilled ones and the unskilled ones fight the same way because of the simpleness of deep freeze/root.

Also, how do you propose a non dragoon catch up to a wizard? Since both people will run at the same speed and you have blink you can just sprint jump away from me for 11 seconds. If casters were unable to sprint that would be one thing, but since both casters and melee move at the same speed the caster will always have the advantage.

Removing deep freeze still allows you to have the advantage of range without making it too easy to keep that advantage. The advantage of range is something that you should have to think about and work for, not be given for free with an ability like deep freeze.

 

[Thunderjolt]

I am not saying that the casters are unskilled, just that it requires no skill to be a geomancer/wizard atm.

So your not saying, your just saying?

 

[Diffuse]

I am saying that individuals are not unskilled, but rather due to the lack of skill in the class skilled players cannot actually be differentiated from unskilled players. Deep freeze removes the difference between good and bad geomancers.

 

[gabe cohen]

you would be supprised how challenging it is to be a geo/wizard im lvl 40 and i can barley hold my own against a lvl 26 deciple and doogler, he just rapes everything