Suggestion reduce range on paladins reckoning

[mikehk]

paladins reckoning has too large of a range for a melee class. I know its meant to get mobs attention, but its got what, a 10 block range? this could easily be used to exploit walls and stuff that people have to hide animals and themselves. if you dont want to reduce the range, then reduce the damage to like 3 or 4, something to get the mobs attention, but not have this skill too OP as it is now. if u dont want to do that, make it so it cant hit through walls. also the same with all other AOEs this is an easy way to exploit and should be removed.

 

[macura]

Aoe's are designed to deal damage within a certain block range i don't think it would be possible to make them unable to deal damage through walls. Althogh getting aoed through walls can get annoying, aoe's ability to hit through walls is not an exploit and part of the reason why they are so useful.

 

[Aburido_burrito]

lol

 

[leftovers5]

The range isn't the problem, the damage it does is.

 

[Aburido_burrito]

You guys seem to forgot the high mana cost... Paladins run out of mana very quickly

 

[macura]

The range isn't the problem, the damage it does is.

Its ability to be a pull and a stun is also devistating to casters.

 

[Kwong050]

You guys seem to forgot the high mana cost... Paladins run out of mana very quickly

In a team fight, all the pally has to do is reckoning once and the opponents are extremely vulnerable. Imo the range and the dmg should be decreased.

 

[Aerokii]

I think there's a bit of a lack of understanding regarding the purpose of reckoning here. It is useful for "taunting" mobs, but this was only a small part of its purpose (because ideally, if it were just a taunt, that's what we'd use -taunt- for.)

The reckoning skill was also designed in order to finally give paladins something to prevent others from running away or just staying constantly ahead of us range wise- as before reckoning, if you could get away from a paladin for even a moment, there was nothing they could do about it. Paladins have no skill to increase mobility, and the only "range" we had were fishing polls (try using one of those skillfully while running and lagging.) As such, we were given Reckoning to pull in those who would run away and slow them down to stop their easy escape. We're now no longer at the complete mercy of casters and rangers, who before could kite us, and our only options were to run, or die.

The range is required to even the odds against ranged characters. The slow helps stop people who are running, and force them to fight. The damage... is actually pretty insignificant compared to the rest. Bash does more, and a paladin's sword does only slightly less (though, swinging a sword costs no mana, has no warm up and no cool down.) The slow effect is consistent with other classes- spells like root stopping them for 4 seconds, terror slows for 6 seconds. The main difference is that this happens to work in an AoE sense, making it useful in party vs. party combat (which is what the paladin is slowly being geared towards- they want it to become a utility class.)

Now, let's take a look at the changes proposed here.

Reducing the range: makes this skill worthless for stopping those who stay at range and kite. If we can get up close to them for a moment, sure, we could use reckoning and slow them down, but that's only if we get close enough in the first place, meaning all a caster/ranger has to do is stay five blocks ahead, or slow the paladin with one of the many skills they have for exactly this purpose. We're back at square one and at the mercy of ranged classes, unable to fight back. We note that a wizard's range for root is 10+0.1 per level, meaning by default almost as soon as a wizard has root, they can stop a paladin in their tracks without ever being in danger. Reckoning IS still one of the widest-ranging AoEs, and I think we could safely bring the range down to 7 or 8, but lowering it much past that would drastically reduce its worth.

Lowering the damage: 3 to 4 damage is an absolute joke. If we were to do this, we may as well just remove damage altogether and just put on the slow effect. When going through the wiki and looking at all other AoE skills for level 60 specs, Reckoning actually has the lowest damage, of all the AoEs that deal it, since it's only 75 damage.

Removing the ability to hit through walls: It's magic. I guess I don't have much of a counter to this, but all AoE do this, as you pointed out.


All in all, I think reckoning itself is in a good place. Could paladin stand to have other changes enacted on it? Yes, I think there still needs to be a balance worked out. But Reckoning, in my opinion, is in a good spot.

TL;DR- reckoning is one of the lowest damaging AoEs, slows as long as root stuns, and its range, while it could be tweaked one or two blocks, it's otherwise in a good spot. It also makes it so paladins can actually fight against ranged classes rather than fleeing or dying.

 

[Kwong050]

I think there's a bit of a lack of understanding regarding the purpose of reckoning here. It is useful for "taunting" mobs, but this was only a small part of its purpose (because ideally, if it were just a taunt, that's what we'd use -taunt- for.)

The reckoning skill was also designed in order to finally give paladins something to prevent others from running away or just staying constantly ahead of us range wise- as before reckoning, if you could get away from a paladin for even a moment, there was nothing they could do about it. Paladins have no skill to increase mobility, and the only "range" we had were fishing polls (try using one of those skillfully while running and lagging.) As such, we were given Reckoning to pull in those who would run away and slow them down to stop their easy escape. We're now no longer at the complete mercy of casters and rangers, who before could kite us, and our only options were to run, or die.

The range is required to even the odds against ranged characters. The slow helps stop people who are running, and force them to fight. The damage... is actually pretty insignificant compared to the rest. Bash does more, and a paladin's sword does only slightly less (though, swinging a sword costs no mana, has no warm up and no cool down.) The slow effect is consistent with other classes- spells like root stopping them for 4 seconds, terror slows for 6 seconds. The main difference is that this happens to work in an AoE sense, making it useful in party vs. party combat (which is what the paladin is slowly being geared towards- they want it to become a utility class.)

Now, let's take a look at the changes proposed here.

Reducing the range: makes this skill worthless for stopping those who stay at range and kite. If we can get up close to them for a moment, sure, we could use reckoning and slow them down, but that's only if we get close enough in the first place, meaning all a caster/ranger has to do is stay five blocks ahead, or slow the paladin with one of the many skills they have for exactly this purpose. We're back at square one and at the mercy of ranged classes, unable to fight back. We note that a wizard's range for root is 10+0.1 per level, meaning by default almost as soon as a wizard has root, they can stop a paladin in their tracks without ever being in danger. Reckoning IS still one of the widest-ranging AoEs, and I think we could safely bring the range down to 7 or 8, but lowering it much past that would drastically reduce its worth.

Lowering the damage: 3 to 4 damage is an absolute joke. If we were to do this, we may as well just remove damage altogether and just put on the slow effect. When going through the wiki and looking at all other AoE skills for level 60 specs, Reckoning actually has the lowest damage, of all the AoEs that deal it, since it's only 75 damage.

Removing the ability to hit through walls: It's magic. I guess I don't have much of a counter to this, but all AoE do this, as you pointed out.


All in all, I think reckoning itself is in a good place. Could paladin stand to have other changes enacted on it? Yes, I think there still needs to be a balance worked out. But Reckoning, in my opinion, is in a good spot.

TL;DR- reckoning is one of the lowest damaging AoEs, slows as long as root stuns, and its range, while it could be tweaked one or two blocks, it's otherwise in a good spot. It also makes it so paladins can actually fight against ranged classes rather than fleeing or dying.

its is pretty much an AoE blackjack proc

 

[Flippintuna1]

I think there's a bit of a lack of understanding regarding the purpose of reckoning here. It is useful for "taunting" mobs, but this was only a small part of its purpose (because ideally, if it were just a taunt, that's what we'd use -taunt- for.)

The reckoning skill was also designed in order to finally give paladins something to prevent others from running away or just staying constantly ahead of us range wise- as before reckoning, if you could get away from a paladin for even a moment, there was nothing they could do about it. Paladins have no skill to increase mobility, and the only "range" we had were fishing polls (try using one of those skillfully while running and lagging.) As such, we were given Reckoning to pull in those who would run away and slow them down to stop their easy escape. We're now no longer at the complete mercy of casters and rangers, who before could kite us, and our only options were to run, or die.

The range is required to even the odds against ranged characters. The slow helps stop people who are running, and force them to fight. The damage... is actually pretty insignificant compared to the rest. Bash does more, and a paladin's sword does only slightly less (though, swinging a sword costs no mana, has no warm up and no cool down.) The slow effect is consistent with other classes- spells like root stopping them for 4 seconds, terror slows for 6 seconds. The main difference is that this happens to work in an AoE sense, making it useful in party vs. party combat (which is what the paladin is slowly being geared towards- they want it to become a utility class.)

Now, let's take a look at the changes proposed here.

Reducing the range: makes this skill worthless for stopping those who stay at range and kite. If we can get up close to them for a moment, sure, we could use reckoning and slow them down, but that's only if we get close enough in the first place, meaning all a caster/ranger has to do is stay five blocks ahead, or slow the paladin with one of the many skills they have for exactly this purpose. We're back at square one and at the mercy of ranged classes, unable to fight back. We note that a wizard's range for root is 10+0.1 per level, meaning by default almost as soon as a wizard has root, they can stop a paladin in their tracks without ever being in danger. Reckoning IS still one of the widest-ranging AoEs, and I think we could safely bring the range down to 7 or 8, but lowering it much past that would drastically reduce its worth.

Lowering the damage: 3 to 4 damage is an absolute joke. If we were to do this, we may as well just remove damage altogether and just put on the slow effect. When going through the wiki and looking at all other AoE skills for level 60 specs, Reckoning actually has the lowest damage, of all the AoEs that deal it, since it's only 75 damage.

Removing the ability to hit through walls: It's magic. I guess I don't have much of a counter to this, but all AoE do this, as you pointed out.


All in all, I think reckoning itself is in a good place. Could paladin stand to have other changes enacted on it? Yes, I think there still needs to be a balance worked out. But Reckoning, in my opinion, is in a good spot.

TL;DR- reckoning is one of the lowest damaging AoEs, slows as long as root stuns, and its range, while it could be tweaked one or two blocks, it's otherwise in a good spot. It also makes it so paladins can actually fight against ranged classes rather than fleeing or dying.

Well first off I've played as a pally. Store they got this massive buff and I felt as if it were incredibly op already. It wasn't want to kill anything without assistance and that's what it does. Root doesn't launch the player towards you and breaks in damage. The range is completely unfair because it goes around 10 blocks. The damage I couldnt care less for. But what do you mean all apes go through walls? Only like 3 of them do. All aoes where you have to choose a target don't. (megabolt blade dance ...). And warriors are supposed to be weak to ranger classes. That's their weakness in the combat triangle.[DOUBLEPOST=1349670645,1349669974][/DOUBLEPOST]Ugh I hate auto correct.......

 

[Aerokii]

Well first off I've played as a pally. Store they got this massive buff and I felt as if it were incredibly op already. It wasn't want to kill anything without assistance and that's what it does. Root doesn't launch the player towards you and breaks in damage. The range is completely unfair because it goes around 10 blocks. The damage I couldnt care less for. But what do you mean all apes go through walls? Only like 3 of them do. All aoes where you have to choose a target don't. (megabolt blade dance ...). And warriors are supposed to be weak to ranger classes. That's their weakness in the combat triangle.[DOUBLEPOST=1349670645,1349669974][/DOUBLEPOST]Ugh I hate auto correct.......

Ahh, I've played as paladin too! Quite some time, actually- though, I do wonder when you played as them? I never quite recall them being called "OP" back in the Zeal or DG days (with the exception of when a skill was broken, such as layhands not having the proper cooldown, or endurance overstacking with shield.) Perhaps I was hasty in saying "All" AoE cast through walls- the non targeted ones go through walls (such as pulse), while the targeted ones cannot. This could be fixed for reckoning by making it require a target- I have no major issue with this.

Also, it seems you took my comparisons a little out of context- I'm not saying "This is the paladin's root equivalent", I was using the root comparison for both range and time, rather than "it does this." Beyond that, root is a slightly lower mana cost for a class that has a much higher mana, and is a level 20 skill rather than 40- it also has a shorter cooldown. Again, I'd be ok with them shortening the range, but only by a bit.

In addition, I believe you've made a mistake reguarding the combat triangle- range is not supposed to be an auto-win for a class. The advantage that's supposed to be given over warriors is the fact that magic cuts through armor, not "we can cast from far away so you can never even get close to us." Big difference.

In the end, though, regarding changes to paladin or reckoning, I just want to make sure that any changes are made for the right reason and with a lot of forethought/data, instead of just "LOL paladin OP" as so many people are fond of spouting off. While I applaud those on this thread who put forth ideas for balancing, short of taking a couple blocks off the range, I think reckoning is in a good place for a high-level skill on this utility class.

Edit: Also, the idea of root ever launching someone towards the caster is downright silly, when the caster would likely want to keep the opponent at range so they couldn't hurt them. Now, for paladins, having a skill that draws people in because you completely lack ranged abilities (aside from reckoning) is really appealing.

 

[Flippintuna1]

What I meant with the combat triangle thing is that ranged classes are supposed to have the she over warrior classes.

Also, they do I much damage for how much hp they have. Today I snuck up on a pally who was in iron armor and was crafting at a crafting table. I used all my skills that do damage and hit him around 6-8 times before he even turns around. Then he bashes reckonings and drops me in around 3 seconds without even trying.

Think of how falker was at the start if the map. He ran around punching and bashing people to death without a weapon or armor and he still killed many people.

 

[cschris54321]

Paladins, Imo, should have reckoning range lowered and dureation of slow-zoomin nerfed, and divine stun removed. Paladins were in a good spot before they had any cc but this makes them able to almost 2v1 most some speced classes. The tankiest class in the game should not have the best aoe cc..... its silly tbh.

 

[jazza411]

Paladins are way too powerful lmao, great health, great strength, good aoe's and great armor...

First that needs to be nerfed imo is the damage of dps, aoe abilities and that god damn facking full heal paladins have all the armor and health + a full heal too powerful >.<

 

[dils1]

Paladins are way too powerful lmao, great health, great strength, good aoe's and great armor...

First that needs to be nerfed imo is the damage of dps, aoe abilities and that god damn facking full heal paladins have all the armor and health + a full heal too powerful >.<

they would be utterly shit if that happened

 

[jazza411]

they would be utterly shit if that happened

Utterly balanced*

 

[IkeBinZ]

Yeah the Hit dmg of Palas needs to be nerfed they dealing to much dmg with hits and they can eat tons of dmg with out dying

 

[Flippintuna1]

How about we take away their armor skils and make them attack with a gold block.

 

[Aerokii]

Paladins are way too powerful lmao, great health, great strength, good aoe's and great armor...

First that needs to be nerfed imo is the damage of dps, aoe abilities and that god damn facking full heal paladins have all the armor and health + a full heal too powerful >.<

Oooh, I see what you're saying. So what you want to do is remove everything that makes them a paladin!

If you're going to make suggestions like this, you really need to have good reasons/data to back it up, rather than just saying "I think you should nerf the fuck out of them because they're OP."

What I meant with the combat triangle thing is that ranged classes are supposed to have the she over warrior classes.

Also, they do I much damage for how much hp they have. Today I snuck up on a pally who was in iron armor and was crafting at a crafting table. I used all my skills that do damage and hit him around 6-8 times before he even turns around. Then he bashes reckonings and drops me in around 3 seconds without even trying.

Think of how falker was at the start if the map. He ran around punching and bashing people to death without a weapon or armor and he still killed many people.

Nope, combat triangle is Warriors > rogues > casters > warriors, where warriors take out rogues due to their low armor and hp, rogues take out casters thanks to their high damage and silence skills, and casters take out warriors because of their ability to cut through armor and deal direct damage. Also, falker's a bad example, given that he mostly graveyard camped newbies who'd just turned level 10 or his own town members. I can't speak as to why you were destroyed by that paladin since any number of factors can go into you getting beat, such as your class, your weapon, you armor level, who you attacked and what they did.

Paladins, Imo, should have reckoning range lowered and dureation of slow-zoomin nerfed, and divine stun removed. Paladins were in a good spot before they had any cc but this makes them able to almost 2v1 most some speced classes. The tankiest class in the game should not have the best aoe cc..... its silly tbh.

Reckoning is a fun skill, but hardly the best AoE in the game. As I stated earlier, it's the lowest damaging one there is. I'd be ok with tuning its range down, but that's about it. The slow and pull are in there for good reasons that I've described twice or so now. Once more I kindly ask that anyone demanding a paladin nerf please add non-anecdotal data to back it up.

 

[Kainzo]

Currently the "pull" effect isnt functioning on PVP. This has a very "low" dmg AE and is currently the lowest out of any AE in the game.