Ranger Revamp

[Haunted9899]

Balance Team
These are the Ranger changes I am proposing: ( I would like to note that I will be coding all the new abilities.)

I believe that Ranger is in need of a complete rework, some of the skills will remain the same, but a majority will be changed.

Skills:

• Kick(same as before)
• Sneak(same as before)
• Track(same as before)
• Summon Arrow (Increase the amount of arrows provided)
• Gills(same as before)
• Forage(same as before)
• Bow Strength(same as before)
• Poison Arrow(same as before)
• Maim
• Aimed Shot
• Wolf-Strike
• Summon Wolf

*Decrease arrow damage*
*Increase melee damage*

Summon Arrow: Buff summon arrow to provide four arrows instead of two.

Maim: Strike with your axe, dealing damage and slowing your target.

Wolf-Strike: Strike with your axe dealing damage.

Summon Wolf: Summons wolf to aid you in combat.

Aimed Shot: Channel a projectile that fires straight forward, dealing damage on entity collision

The idea behind these changes are to do away with the current system and make Rangers more well rounded. Currently Rangers are too reliant on landing their arrows, making it so that if you land all your arrows you do too much damage, and if you don't land enough you are worthless.

By reducing bow damage and doing away with most of the current system a Ranger is not only less reliant on landing their arrows, they can actually be of some use in a team fight.

I am not suggesting that their melee attacks do so much damage that their ranged bow attacks be forgotten, what I want is for Ranger to be able to use a mix of ranged combat and melee.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I like the changes overall, and think this is a good idea. However, I think that they should have 1 more bow ability. I remember you tossing around some ideas before, but I don't see any of them here. Poison arrow isn't a bad thing to keep, but I still think they need something else to give it the umph it needs.

Other than that, I think everything is good.

 

[Eldrylars]

A few ideas if you are actually changing the code.

• Summon arrow.
  • Rework to give a temporary infinity buff. There has to be some way if it exists as an item enchantment. upping summon arrow will just allow for the free creation of items which can be exploited
• Bow Skills.
  • Although making the the ranger more usable at close range is attractive, the Ranger is the only class that is supposed to work mostly at range and with the listed skill sets it really seems to be detracting from that aspect. Some examples written on the quick. These examples would also be useful in group combat if the Ranger can get some positioning and get debuffs or drains on targets. The strength of the debuffs can actually be better to an extent(while still considering solo or small group) because a Ranger with bad aim could just as easily hit his allies or completely miss his target.
    • Giving Rangers skills based off the new Runeblade system could be made to work. Make it so it only works when a bow is held. It could be made to apply three charges of each toxin. The effects would not stack but if the Ranger landed three consecutive shots he could apply the effects to three different targets per cast. A miss would burn a charge.
      • ApplyPoison
        • Standard Health damaging run breaking DoT
      • ApplyNeuroToxin
        • Applies a 3 second nausea effect with a small DoT
      • ApplyMuscleToxin
        • Applies a stamina DoT that drains the targets stamina.
      • ApplyDrainingSerum.
        • Applies a Debuff that stops mana and health regeneration for x seconds
• Wolf-Strike
  • Just another damage dealing skill that will mix in with the rest. What about the giving the Ranger a melee damage bonus for Melee attacks near the wolf? basically a variant of Might that is cast from the Ranger Wolf that buffs the rangers melee? That would give more unique skills that will not change the outcome to much over a DD skill but would be something special to the Ranger.

I would also consider putting summon wolf early in the progression, maybe level 20 or 30 instead of 65.

 

[Haunted9899]

A few ideas if you are actually changing the code.

• Summon arrow.
  • Rework to give a temporary infinity buff. There has to be some way if it exists as an item enchantment. upping summon arrow will just allow for the free creation of items which can be exploited
• Bow Skills.
  • Although making the the ranger more usable at close range is attractive, the Ranger is the only class that is supposed to work mostly at range and with the listed skill sets it really seems to be detracting from that aspect. Some examples written on the quick. These examples would also be useful in group combat if the Ranger can get some positioning and get debuffs or drains on targets. The strength of the debuffs can actually be better to an extent(while still considering solo or small group) because a Ranger with bad aim could just as easily hit his allies or completely miss his target.
    • Giving Rangers skills based off the new Runeblade system could be made to work. Make it so it only works when a bow is held. It could be made to apply three charges of each toxin. The effects would not stack but if the Ranger landed three consecutive shots he could apply the effects to three different targets per cast. A miss would burn a charge.
      • ApplyPoison
        • Standard Health damaging run breaking DoT
      • ApplyNeuroToxin
        • Applies a 3 second nausea effect with a small DoT
      • ApplyMuscleToxin
        • Applies a stamina DoT that drains the targets stamina.
      • ApplyDrainingSerum.
        • Applies a Debuff that stops mana and health regeneration for x seconds
• Wolf-Strike
  • Just another damage dealing skill that will mix in with the rest. What about the giving the Ranger a melee damage bonus for Melee attacks near the wolf? basically a variant of Might that is cast from the Ranger Wolf that buffs the rangers melee? That would give more unique skills that will not change the outcome to much over a DD skill but would be something special to the Ranger.

I would also consider putting summon wolf early in the progression, maybe level 20 or 30 instead of 65.

I am trying to get away from ranger being completely bow based. Bows are flawed in that they are really unreliable. Not only is the damage unreliable, landing the arrows is also very unreliable. Even when the server is in perfect conditions the class itself is unreliable.

Ranger as it is, is completely reliant on skill shots(the only class like it in the game mind you). Adding in the melee abilities not only makes Ranger more playable as a whole, it brings Ranger back to what is should have been all along.
Ranger is suppose to moderate melee and ranged damage alike. They are not an archer, although they have been masquerading as one.

The goal is to make Ranger more versatile and playable, I feel that getting away from the current system is the only way to do it.

Unless of course you were talking about augmenting their melee weapon, I was thinking if this originally and thought it would be more like the Vanguard Ranger using weapon augments, but I thought it maybe kind of lame taking such things from Runeblade.

 

[Eldrylars]

I am trying to get away from ranger being completely bow based. Bows are flawed in that they are really unreliable. Not only is the damage unreliable, landing the arrows is also very unreliable. Even when the server is in perfect conditions the class itself is unreliable.

I understand that. I have played around with a Ranger on a crappy computer mind you and I landed 15% of my shots. On a good computer I am betting I could get to an average of 50% quickly but I will see tonight when I get home.

Please note that my counter suggestion was going with exactly what you were trying to do. Add more melee capable skills. Unfortunately though your suggestion does not address one of the major issues with Rangers. Their lack of group oriented play. With the build you have above the Ranger will do more damage in a group fight if he gets into Melee range(which will inevitably happen) but I do not see it making the Ranger anymore functional. Consider this, the Ranger tries to land some arrows which do or don't but while the ranger is trying to land damage any rogue/fighter class closes on the Ranger getting into Melee range. The Rangers going to die against any other melee and not going to contribute to any group scenarios. Lighter armor and less health then all the Fighter classes and less damage and melee skills then all the rogue classes will leave the Rangers feeling worthless, just as they often do now.

I agree that Rangers need a buff to their Melee survival to at least give them some sort of fighting chance but every other class is melee/spell related and I personally believe that the main place of the Ranger should still be with his unreliable bow

I know my suggestion adds in several skills that would push a Rangers skills to 16 but I think 15-20 skills per class is not a bad thing as it will provide situationally relevant options to each class and give several ways to play, which will in turn give players a lot more to do.

Giving the ranger more effects to apply would give them some group viability. Landing a NeuroToxin on a Healer/Caster would take them of of commision for 3 seconds letting your group get in those needed hits or prevent some additional damage. Landing a MuscleToxin on a Dragoon or an Sammy would limit it's ability to spam it's skills. Situational support options. Sure some good balancing would have to come into play as we would have to consider 1v1 2v2 4v4 10v10. I Just don't see giving a damage boost to the melee as well as two melee skills and lowering the bow use as actually helping Rangers find their place again.

Rangers used to be pretty good if I am not mistaken back for a while on Dragon.

@leftovers - You are a Ranger Lifer, this is your playing field. speak up.

 

[Haunted9899]

I understand that. I have played around with a Ranger on a crappy computer mind you and I landed 15% of my shots. On a good computer I am betting I could get to an average of 50% quickly but I will see tonight when I get home.

Please note that my counter suggestion was going with exactly what you were trying to do. Add more melee capable skills. Unfortunately though your suggestion does not address one of the major issues with Rangers. Their lack of group oriented play. With the build you have above the Ranger will do more damage in a group fight if he gets into Melee range(which will inevitably happen) but I do not see it making the Ranger anymore functional. Consider this, the Ranger tries to land some arrows which do or don't but while the ranger is trying to land damage any rogue/fighter class closes on the Ranger getting into Melee range. The Rangers going to die against any other melee and not going to contribute to any group scenarios. Lighter armor and less health then all the Fighter classes and less damage and melee skills then all the rogue classes will leave the Rangers feeling worthless, just as they often do now.

I agree that Rangers need a buff to their Melee survival to at least give them some sort of fighting chance but every other class is melee/spell related and I personally believe that the main place of the Ranger should still be with his unreliable bow

I know my suggestion adds in several skills that would push a Rangers skills to 16 but I think 15-20 skills per class is not a bad thing as it will provide situationally relevant options to each class and give several ways to play, which will in turn give players a lot more to do.

Giving the ranger more effects to apply would give them some group viability. Landing a NeuroToxin on a Healer/Caster would take them of of commision for 3 seconds letting your group get in those needed hits or prevent some additional damage. Landing a MuscleToxin on a Dragoon or an Sammy would limit it's ability to spam it's skills. Situational support options. Sure some good balancing would have to come into play as we would have to consider 1v1 2v2 4v4 10v10. I Just don't see giving a damage boost to the melee as well as two melee skills and lowering the bow use as actually helping Rangers find their place again.

Rangers used to be pretty good if I am not mistaken back for a while on Dragon.

@leftovers - You are a Ranger Lifer, this is your playing field. speak up.

So wait, are you saying these poisons should be applied to melee attacks or bow?

 

[Eldrylars]

So wait, are you saying these poisons should be applied to melee attacks or bow?

These examples were meant for Bow.
The examples were created with the idea that the Ranger should do more damage at close range but his support skills are meant for range. I think limiting them to ranged attacks will in turn limit the ease of using them. This would give more play to up their effectiveness. As in, if you can hit your allies or miss your enemies then the effects should be stronger.

Up the melee as you suggested giving them some fighting change against other melees but still focus their support on ranged.

Kainzo design role for Rangers is:
Ranger (Range Damage / Med Def / Support)
Most of the current Ranger skills are bow related - Range Damage
Rangers have 44% damage reduction - Medium Defense
Rangers only real support skill is Track which although is an awesome skill it's very limited.

If we are trying to make Ranger more viable, just giving it some melee damage and skills is not going to fulfill any of the roles it's meant to fill and although it might balance it's damage numbers it wont balance it's class roles properly.

Giving Rangers some boost to melee and then a bigger boost to their potential support roles would balance it more against it's role as well as against other classes numbers/skill wise?

Really though, Leftovers played a ranged for 15 months or so, so we really need his input.

 

[Kainzo]

The ranger is the only true archer class and it should not have it's ranged damage changed.

While I think it should have its melee power slightly increased, I think you misunderstand the purpose and design goal of Ranger.

It should have an "outlet" if they come into close range but should, by no means, be as effective at both.

If you seek guidance on how the ranger is, look up Ranger in EverQuest or Vanguard. They are a hybrid class, mixed with rogue / druid.

 

[Haunted9899]

The ranger is the only true archer class and it should not have it's ranged damage changed.

While I think it should have its melee power slightly increased, I think you misunderstand the purpose and design goal of Ranger.

It should have an "outlet" if they come into close range but should, by no means, be as effective at both.

If you seek guidance on how the ranger is, look up Ranger in EverQuest or Vanguard. They are a hybrid class, mixed with rogue / druid.

I actually quoted "Ranger is suppose to moderate melee and ranged damage alike" directly from Everquest. As for Vanguard I made this post with that in mind as well. " Unique fighting styles allow the ranger to be able to fight defensively and offensively and improve their tactics by adapting their combat style in reaction to their opponent's powers. Rangers also have some command over nature itself, using it to heal and augment as well as channel it into special attacks. The ranger is also a very skilled archer, having many special skills when using a bow in combat." That is directly from Vanguards description of a ranger. When looking at the Vanguard rangers abilities, they have plenty of melee spells/ attacks and ranged alike. I am suggesting what I am because this is NOT Vanguard, and the arrow system is in no way comparable, but even in vanguard where their arrows were way more effective, they still had an equal mix of melee. With abilities like Blade of Winter, Blade of Summer, Sweeping Strike, Rancor, Windsong, and these are just in the first 10 levels of Ranger!

I think they should be versatile at both melee and ranged, as the description suggests. I am currently playing a ranger to get a better understanding of what the class needs, and to be honest, if the class had a little melee prowess it would be a better class in general. As it is, when fighting someone, it becomes a game of how long can I kite this person before they can get to me. Unless you are in an area that allows a person to get stuck on terrain, or a tunnel, they are going to get to you which is fine. The only problem with that is, unlike any other class in the game, when someone is hitting you at close range it makes it very difficult to get an arrow off, and pulling out your axe currently is negligible. Giving them a few melee attacks would go a long way.

Sources:
http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Ranger
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:ranger

 

[Kainzo]

Yeah, like I said - I think its a good idea to improve ranger's ability in the close range, without sacrificing too much in the long range.

I can easily make Maim (though I think it should be renamed to something more .. .Ranger-y, maim sounds more like a warrior move)

 

[Haunted9899]

Yeah, like I said - I think its a good idea to improve ranger's ability in the close range, without sacrificing too much in the long range.

I can easily make Maim (though I think it should be renamed to something more .. .Ranger-y, maim sounds more like a warrior move)

Ensnaring Strike?
Do you want to keep the current system, and just buff the rangers melee a bit?

 

[Kainzo]

Ensnaring Strike?
Do you want to keep the current system, and just buff the rangers melee a bit?

I havent really played a ranger from start to finish. Though to me, the arrow queue system seems a bit ... unfun, at least to me.

 

[Haunted9899]

I havent really played a ranger from start to finish. Though to me, the arrow queue system seems a bit ... unfun, at least to me.

I agree, I have been scratching my head trying to think of a new way to make the ranged attacks better and more fun. Being able to imbue your arrows with poison seems like a good idea still, but I don't like that all the skills are stuck to that same concept.

 

[Delfofthebla]

I havent really played a ranger from start to finish. Though to me, the arrow queue system seems a bit ... unfun, at least to me.

It would be.

To be honest, I think Ranger would be more interesting with bow skills, rather than imbue or rune-queue effects. I really dislike the current system, both as a player, as well as a designer.

 

[Kainzo]

It would be.

To be honest, I think Ranger would be more interesting with bow skills, rather than imbue or rune-queue effects. I really dislike the current system, both as a player, as well as a designer.

Yah, I'm not a fan. I'd prefer it when they used it it would fire it immediately from their bow (require a bow to be wielded) rather than actually queueing the next shot... but I'm not sure how extreme that may be.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Yah, I'm not a fan. I'd prefer it when they used it it would fire it immediately from their bow (require a bow to be wielded) rather than actually queueing the next shot... but I'm not sure how extreme that may be.

Well, it all depends on what your goal is with the bow skills. Are you looking at immersion? Functionality? Or something else?

Simply requiring them to hold a bow and letting a skill use fire off skills is pretty easy. We do this already with skills that require weapons, (such as runes, Impale, LunarLance, or envenom).

The problem with bows, is that they have their own built in "warmup" to them. In order to fire an arrow, you have to hold left click, and then release. The only way to effectively make arrow abilities that "fit in" is to make them queue onto your next attack, like IceArrow and PoisonArrow.

So you either have situation A, where you press a button, and some arrow ability fires off in front of your face,
or situation B, where you press a button, hold left click, and fire off an arrow with the ability "attached" to it.

Situation A looks really derpy from the perspective of the player, but it's instantaneous.
Situation B looks a lot better from the players perspective, but doesn't allow them to "quickly" use skills, which some would argue is what the Ranger needs.

I think that if we use Situation B in a much better manner, it could work out really well.

What if ImbueEffects for Ranger arrows only worked for their next shot? Instead of stuff like IceArrow and PoisonArrow, you could attach stronger, more diverse effects. Perhaps your next shot transformed into a fan of arrows? Maybe it transforms your shot into the current barrage functionality. It would require a bit of re-coding, but you could really make it do anything you want--it doesn't have to use the arrow that comes out of the bow.

 

[yoIyo]

Delfofthebla, Kainzo, Haunted9899
This was made for a Ranger Revamp; If we want the melee/ranged hybrid. Let us change the name to something more suiting? Like Prowler or Hunter?
We can still have that ranged DPS followed by melee based skills.
Current flaws I find in Ranger:

• Lack of teamfight abilities.
• Only good for 1v1.
• Heavily reliant on Ice Arrow.
• Allies eat arrows like no tomorrow.
• Heartshot used correctly can 4-5 hit any leather target.

New Ideas:

• Increases attack power and speed of ranged attacks, while reducing attack power of melee attacks <-- vice versa; two different skills.
• Allows you to perform your next ranged attack without using ammunition.
• Uses two units of ammunition to deal double damage.
• Lowers target's evasion; slowing them; kinda like maim idea Haunted had

Just things I wanted to contribute.