Proposal: Wilderness Grieving & Township Rules

[Kaliven]

First off, I love this server, I haven't ever been so happy with my experience in a private server as I am with this one, I've never given $60 to a private server, and I intend to give more shortly, I LOVE it here...

However one thing bothers me, Herocraft is SO safe, I joined it because it was labeled as "Hardcore", PVP enabled, scary and bad...

I have to say, that my first few weeks here was scary, and Hardcore, Raided by Helms Derp a few times a day, it was hard, and fun.

But now there have been several rulings that protect everyone so everyone can attack each other with hugs and love... no wonder everyone on the server is allied... TIME TO SHAKE THINGS UP!

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This is my proposal for the wilderness grieving rules, as well as townships, and towns not yet ringed:




First some definitions:


A Township is defined as:

An official town with a ring around it in the sky, it has paid its 1500 coins, and has 10 members, its creator has been promoted to mayor.

A Settlement is defined as:

A town with no ring around it, it has not paid its 1500 coins and/or does not have the 10 members required to become a town, its creator has not been promoted to mayor. It may yet become a town, but is not yet.

[size=large]
Section 1 Township Rules conflicts:[/size]

Recently we have been giving conflicting sets of rules:

1.) Do not create realms outside your town.
2.) Do not create realms/cuboids bigger then 25x25
3.) Do not create realms bigger then 25x25 that has pvp disabled.

However, recently It was divulged that you are ALLOWED to break ALL THREE of rules, if you are a donor or a mayor that is “trying to start a (or another) town”

I think this rule is horridly unfair, and conflicting. What is to stop anyone from creating a million “going to be a town” cluttering the map with stupid, non pvp non create/destroy zones?

[size=large]My proposal for a resolution:[/size]

Inform a mod/admin/forum post that the realm is being created, you MAY NOT turn PVP off in your new realm UNTIL it becomes a TOWN (see above) except your NORMAL 25x25 area, (town hall, safe zone) as per usual.

You MAY realm off a 60x60 area to start your town but you can only shut off block editing, (create or destroy).

You have ONE WEEK to become a town (you need to place a sign upon creation), or your realms are deleted, recreating realms results in mod action.

This allows raiding of “Settlements” and doesn't give “Settlements” the same powers as “towns” being safe zones, for practically no danger, while setting up.

Making a town should be hard, not find a T4/T5 to realm it off, and safe forever till you eventually get 10 people, and get the money.
Fighting and scraping to get a town going, is an experience that is “hardcore” and belongs on this server.


[size=large]Section 2 Grieving Rules conflicts:[/size]

Here again we get some conflicts

• None of the above grants permission for grief and mindlessly tearing down buildings in the wastelands or mass terraform and mess up areas in the wilderness.
• To protect yourself in the wastelands, either join a township that offers protection, become a T3+ donator, hide your items, set traps or stay in Sanctum City.

And then the conflicts here

• ruining others' property in the wilderness by placing or removing blocks

So essentially you cannot take a block away, or place a block, creating a dirt hovel, as pointed out, you are perfectly protected by placing a block behind your door, with no donation.

I realize this is a hard balance between being a dick and making the wilderness dangerous. The word “mindless” is kind of subjective. So I've written a few proposed rules.

[size=large] Proposed Grieving Rules[/size]

1. You have NO expectation of privacy, security, or property outside of towns.

2. Your house cannot be completely destroyed unless a Mod/Admin okays it.

3. Your house must be left at least 80% unaltered, no blocks can be added such as lava or water.

4. You may have your house broken into, tunneled into/under, and the following blocks can be stolen if you are foolish enough to make your house out of them in the wilderness.
-Gold Blocks
-Diamond Blocks
-Mossy Cobble
-Iron Blocks
-Bricks
-Redstone

For ultimate protection Join a township.


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Just my humble contribution to the server.

 

[Kainzo]

I agree with the majority of this - I'll re-read it and edit this post more later.

I think its okay to realm/cuboid it from destruction - but not from pvp. Truth be told - this wont matter much when we go to bmod for the most part - realms is 0% ported atm and we'll be going without it.

 

[Mikespillow]

I don't exactly want the server to be all hugs and no danger of pvp competition, but not allowing a pvp-free zone in a developing town can become unfair. I have heard through chat and the forums of situations in which a group of players, sometimes plenty large enough for a town, attempts to build a town and cannot because of pvping. Certain players that pk frequently may camp out the area and just wait for people to kill, and when your items and time are repeatedly taken away, founding a township becomes extremely difficult.
I do agree that there should not just be a ton of "going to be a town" areas littered around the map, but I don't think that's whats happening. The rules in the past have not prohibited, to my knowledge, the realming of pvp-safe areas where budding towns are developing. I still don't see very many of these safe areas littered around the map, the few I know of are making constant strides towards becoming an official town, not just using the safe area for housing. If there were abandoned safe areas scattered across the map, I might have agreed, but this rule change would just become an protection for an efficient method of camping.

And before you say that's the point, people should defend themselves, or hire protection, its unfair to expect of group of newish players to be able to protect themselves or pay for help. And despite how much Kainzo wished for it, no group was formed for protecting the people who just want to build, because there is no incentive to participate in that activity at this time.

 

[Zigzo]

And despite how much Kainzo wished for it, no group was formed for protecting the people who just want to build, because there is no incentive to participate in that activity at this time.

That's pretty much what I do. I don't think any rules regarding pvp like this should be in place unless the system was far more refined then "I lag less I win/I'm a t5 with auto-sneak."

These rules are advantageous to only those who wish to pvp and pk rather then those that wish to do anything else.

What's the point of building anything if it can all just be torn down? You could just go destroying everything making doing anything BUT pvping/tearing buildings down pointless.

This rule change means I'll probably quit, because the only reason I donated was for the safety because it was advertised to provide it. With that safety gone, I am actaully feeling ripped off.

 

[Kaliven]

Guys you're missing the point... my point was there needs to be less towns.

There doesn't need to be 21342342 towns. Everyone wants to start their towns and be their own king/boss whatever and this allows them to do it with such insane ease.

If you want your stuff protected, join a town already established, or risk your stuff in the wilds, nothing stops you from joining a town, then gathering 10 friends and coins, and venturing out to start a new town, hell some alliances pay for your town to expand their power. I have at least 3 people doing that now. And I'm about to make good on those promises.

The rules say you need 10 people and 1500c you can claim a ring with NOTHING built, we did.

Not that hard. Really.

Hell Blasphemy will take you in let you use our (vast) resources, swear your new town to Blasphemy, and fall under our protection, I don't want to micromanage your town, I want your people when I need them. That is it.

THAT'S what the feudal system is about.

 

[Mikespillow]

No one would walk anywhere. And that completely ruins the ability to realm for everyone that paid for it, unless they are a mayor. Not everyone wants to found a town, some people want to just build in the wild and keep to themselves without being pked.

 

[wolfgang784]

As for groups of people trying to start towns that can't because of pkers, that just means they don't want to start a town. If they really did, they would get some iron, 2 diamonds, some meat, and defend the town. If they're building a town im sure they have the majority of the 10 people at least, and could therefore easily defend most groups of pkers unless an entire town attacked them.

I agree with everything said here except that realms should be off completely in the wild. If it is ever ported fully, realms should be allowed in the 25x25 area with pvp enabled.

Hope this gets implemented more, I too agree that towns are too easy to make. If I see anyone building, Im gonna stab em and take their supplies.

Oh as for people who just want to build. Find a town that wants you to build, find some people who are bored and will protect you, or get some iron and 2 diamond and protect yourself.

 

[McGreed]

It seem that some people wants to only grief others (yes, its grief others when they didn't want to engage into pvp) whenever they want, and that its their main objective in Minecraft, which I think is a joke. Their main joy is to run around griefing as many people they can, and they know there isn't much their victims can do, and its always lucrative to do so, because builders and miners got lot of stuff on them, while the griefers only got limited stuff, so not that big of a lose. So they have always the upper hand.

I don't care for PK'ing, which some might have noticed already, and it seem the server is turning into a world of griefing, where the main objective is to get a much stuff as possible without doing any work for it. And if thats the 'vision' of this server, well, goodbye on my account. And that's from someone who got commands for protections. Even the wild west had repercussions towards this shit.

 

[Kaliven]

No one would walk anywhere. And that completely ruins the ability to realm for everyone that paid for it, unless they are a mayor. Not everyone wants to found a town, some people want to just build in the wild and keep to themselves without being pked.

I'm actually very ok with the the 25x25 area of no PK that donors paid for, that isn't my issue (I don't even have one)

What I do have an issue with is people realming off BIGGER then 25x25 turning pvp off, as per is against the rules, THEN saying "they are building a town" thus getting pretty much all the town benefits (minus herogate and bank) without actually paying 1500c, getting ten sigs, applying, and the like.

again I am perfectly ok with the donors who aren't in towns and cuboid/realm/regions their 25x25 house, using clever walls and gates to keep people out, as that is some effort and donating to the server to keep you safe.


Its when they region WAY larger of an area I start to get uppity.

or when someone who doesn't donate, as per all the server messages gets a wilderness house/settlement going and expects to make it out of goldblocks and lol its safe forever cause now your Grieving, cause I made my house out of solid gold.

Donate, Town... those should be your protection options.

 

[Kainzo]

We'll need to start enforcing no regional protects bigger than 25x25 for private/starting towns.

I agree with the majority of the thread. The reason being... Monsters are worthless atm - so the risk should be in a player instead.

 

[Kaliven]

We'll need to start enforcing no regional protects bigger than 25x25 for private/starting towns.

Because of current mod/admin rulings, I do have one that is bigger then that, if you'd like I will turn it off, it will be a town by Friday though. I'll disable the realm tonight, or cut it down to 25x25 tonight.

 

[wolfgang784]

I don't care for PK'ing, which some might have noticed already, and it seem the server is turning into a world of griefing, where the main objective is to get a much stuff as possible without doing any work for it. And if thats the 'vision' of this server, well, goodbye on my account. And that's from someone who got commands for protections. Even the wild west had repercussions towards this shit.

What your saying makes sense as well. The wild west did have repercussions, and it was up to the people who lived there to have people enforce them. Im not all for pvp, its fun sometimes, but if towns get annoyed with pvpers they can easily declare war on their towns and start hunting them down.

If the pvpers were hunted all the time by groups of people and people left towns prepared and in groups it would be harder to pvp.

What i'm saying basically, is if the players of the server get tired of pvpers they should do something about them. Until then, the pvpers will have their version of fun and the builders will have theirs.

 

[Angusward]

What your saying makes sense as well. The wild west did have repercussions, and it was up to the people who lived there to have people enforce them. Im not all for pvp, its fun sometimes, but if towns get annoyed with pvpers they can easily declare war on their towns and start hunting them down.

If the pvpers were hunted all the time by groups of people and people left towns prepared and in groups it would be harder to pvp.

What i'm saying basically, is if the players of the server get tired of pvpers they should do something about them. Until then, the pvpers will have their version of fun and the builders will have theirs.

A very simple sentiment, but that rather relies on people being on to defend their property. I have nothing against person killing, but if people nick my placed blocks (even ones of modest value; when the dyed fleece is added, people will always steal the blue ones; not fun.) I tend to get annoyed; there isn't any point in building anything if your buildings always get stripped down of all the colourful blocks. That's why I'm looking forwards to the coloured fleece, it can add some colour to a structure without too much risk of people stealing it.

 

[Respiren]

The world is awfully safe at the moment .....

Let me share with you a vision of war

To me war isn't a game of capture the flag, or a fort on the edge of town
with loot. To be heroic requires that there be a threat and a challenge to
fear and be overcome.

War is the justification and practice of murder.

What i propose would drive people to band together, create competition,
generate game play and transform cities into fortresses. Although there
will be a safe-haven for those that do not wish to participate.

It would require three commands:

/declare war [city/kingdom]
/declare ceasefire [city/kingdom]
/declare mutualwar [city/kingdom]

A war does not give license for wholesale destruction of a town. What it
would allow is pvp inside of towns between the feuding factions.

But war is not cheap, there will be a high price for declaring war
drawn from the coffers of the attacker both initially and and intervals to
maintain the war. That is unless the defending town declares mutual war,
in which case the maintainence fee is waived as war can endure
indefinitely, until both parties declare a ceasefire.

Wars declared by and upon kingdoms will of course be more costly
and more violent.

This gives an inherent advantage to the defender and also the opportunity
to strike back.

But not everyone will wish to fight... so

You might hire mercenaries to declare a counter war in order to defend or
attack your aggressor.

As an adjunct to this there will be 'sanctuaries' that protect players
from violence, perhaps small shrines to Apherdite ^^ to be located in DH,
at Spawn and perhaps inside of large cities. Within these shrines pvp will
be disabled. These would be places of healing waters and venues for face
to face diplomacy, or a base of operations to recall to. To be blessed by
admins if they find them pleasing.

If people wish to build creatively without threat,
perhaps there could be a large neutral zone, and we can build walls around it *shrug


-A Mayor of a town and SIC will have access to these extra war commands.
-A short delay may be added to allow people to prepare.
-An automated mail notification could be sent to those involved.
as well as a declaration of intent on the forums.
-----------------------------------------------------------

These war commands could work in conjunction with cuboid and lwc protection and
using the town citizen lists. There is a more difficult conflict with
realming though this may solve itself if realming can't be implemented
since the new patch.

<3 Respiren

 

[Raetac]

This is my opinion and not the view of the Staff as a whole.

PvP and PvE should be split down the middle by server ports, clear cut with no grey areas to complicate matters and the need to police rules the are so open for interpretation. One map for the people who want to kill each other and cause mayhem and the other for the peacefull builders

 

[wolfgang784]

A very simple sentiment, but that rather relies on people being on to defend their property. I have nothing against person killing, but if people nick my placed blocks (even ones of modest value; when the dyed fleece is added, people will always steal the blue ones; not fun.) I tend to get annoyed; there isn't any point in building anything if your buildings always get stripped down of all the colourful blocks. That's why I'm looking forwards to the coloured fleece, it can add some colour to a structure without too much risk of people stealing it.

If people are stealing placed blocks off your house report it and they will get banned. That is greifing, something almost all pvpers are against except maybe 2 blocks so you could sneak through a wall, which you should replace when you leave again.

Stealing placed blocks is wrong because it ruins peoples work. However a chest of colored wool blocks would be taken, unless properly hidden or protected by a donor. Keep the good stuff in a town.

 

[Ilsyde]

This is my opinion and not the view of the Staff as a whole.

PvP and PvE should be split down the middle by server ports, clear cut with no grey areas to complicate matters and the need to police rules the are so open for interpretation. One map for the people who want to kill each other and cause mayhem and the other for the peacefull builders

Way I see it, the problem is that the two go hand in hand and you can't separate them. Murderers and thieves won't spend their time or creativity on building vast monuments and citie. They rely on their prey, the peaceful parties.

I also think that these rules a bit overcomplicated now. We're facing two problems:
#1 PvP and stealing/destroying inside official towns
#2 destroying blocks outside official towns

These issues can be eradicated by making the mayors more responsible for their own town and citizens. They must protect the full area of their city while also disabling PvP.
- if anyone gets killed inside an official town then that's the mayor's fault (unless it's a settlement for outlaws that promotes PvP)
- if anything gets griefed or stolen inside an official town then that's the mayor's fault
Problem #1 solved.

As for protecting areas outside cities: if you can't do it yourself (don't have access to the proper commands) then though sh*t, your stuff will get stolen and griefed. Team up with a few more people where one of them is able to protect your ever growing settlement before evolving into an official town.
Problem #2 solved.

 

[Mikespillow]

What are newish people doing trying to set up a town anyway? Towns should be left to the old residents, that have been around and can afford the fees for establishing it and defending it prior to getting the rings. People that got whitelisted 2 days ago should NOT be trying to make towns.

Thus I render your argument void.

Kalivens new rule set ftw!

I did not say newish players founding a town, I said newish players setting up a town. If you're a prospective mayor looking to start building your town, the cheapest source of laborers that will become citizens is new players.

 

[Ilsyde]

Oh and as for abusing protection and going over the 25x25 limit:

Make/request a simple plugin by merging the one used to create town rings (select a center point and radius then poof, your ring appears) and the one used for protecting. Let's call it perimeter.

/perimeter 13 pvpoff available to T3+ ; creates a protected area with a 13 radius around the center block and turns off PvP ; using this command the second time will delete the previous perimeter

/perimeter 75 pvpoff available to mayors ; creates a protected area with a 75 radius around the center block and turns off PvP ; can only be used once unless a mod/admin deletes the perimeter ; radius depends on the settlement's size

 

[Kaliven]

Way I see it, the problem is that the two go hand in hand and you can't separate them. Murderers and thieves won't spend their time or creativity on building vast monuments and citie. They rely on their prey, the peaceful parties.

I also think that these rules a bit overcomplicated now. We're facing two problems:
#1 PvP and stealing/destroying inside official towns
#2 destroying blocks outside official towns

These issues can be eradicated by making the mayors more responsible for their own town and citizens. They must protect the full area of their city while also disabling PvP.
- if anyone gets killed inside an official town then that's the mayor's fault (unless it's a settlement for outlaws that promotes PvP)
- if anything gets griefed or stolen inside an official town then that's the mayor's fault
Problem #1 solved.

As for protecting areas outside cities: if you can't do it yourself (don't have access to the proper commands) then though sh*t, your stuff will get stolen and griefed. Team up with a few more people where one of them is able to protect your ever growing settlement before evolving into an official town.
Problem #2 solved.

Ilsyde, I love you. Seriously, this is perfect, exactly what I want.

But there's the rule about "mindlessly grieving outside of towns"

I am not looking forward to when "Nato" builds an ugly ass cobble fort outside of Blasphemy, cause I can't tear it down, because it is "protected" by by the Grieving rules, it was placed there as a combat action, but under the current rules, I can't do anything to it because it is "someone's work"

I'm all for lawlessness in the wilds, if you can't protect your @#$@!# then don't build it there, join an established town, don't re-invent the wheel or ask the mayor of your town, for help building branch towns.

My proposal was a middle of the road that meets the "no mindless grieving" and "hardcore" vision.

Also if you want a server that isn't PVP there are thousands to join, I enjoy the danger and sense of it all, building a kingdom here means a lot more, the economy means more, because my diamond swords I give to my soldiers aren't just for beating up monsters, they're for defending our lands, and raiding. I love that I risk transporting things on the road, I love that everything we do MEANS something.

THAT'S why I started the Villaincraft project, its not because I enjoy being a mindless jerk, its because this world needs villains damnit.