Suggestion Primary/Secondary Classing

[Oudaiesty]

I haven't really been on this server for a long while and I enjoyed leveling up different classes. I just wish I could level up another class and have a portion of it mix into my mastered class Or if I wanted to change the class I wanted to master then switch the primary. I'm not sure if this was suggested or not already so please forgive me if that is the case.

Essentially this would allow players to level from 1 to 100 and take some of the lesser abilities from a favored class that they have leveled.

However in order to even take abilities from a secondary class they must have mastered whatever primary class they have selected. From 61 to 100 is all secondary skills.

If the player has mastered their primary class and chose a class that they already mastered for secondary it would simply just set the secondary classes level to 40 and whatever skills that land before that mark are added.

Pros:
-Expanded playability of herocraft
-A much larger variety of pvp combinations
-Conforms more efficiently with the current class system (Still tier based)

Cons:
-Intensive balancing could be needed
-The emergence of extremely powerful combos
-Could break stuff

Just a suggestion but it would be pretty interesting to see what comes of it.

themeoff, jake332211, Rumblestikk, leftovers5

 

[Kainzo]

While I think this is a great idea - its not currently possible to mix/match things in the code. We'd need a new frame-work for this... in a way it'd defeat the entire system unless some heavy checks/balances were set in place.

 

[MrFly007]

Whats to stop everyone from picking the most OP skills and essentially becoming a juggernaut.

 

[kirinelf]

Whats to stop everyone from picking the most OP skills and essentially becoming a juggernaut.

If I'm reading the first post right, just have the OP skills come after level 40. xD

 

[Danda]

This would also further increase the gap between lower and higher level characters making it more difficult for new players to get into Herocraft. Higher levels camping lower levels is still a major problem and this would only make it worse tbh :/

 

[Oudaiesty]

While I think this is a great idea - its not currently possible to mix/match things in the code. We'd need a new frame-work for this... in a way it'd defeat the entire system unless some heavy checks/balances were set in place.

Yeah I imagine that trying to implement this on top of what is there could potentially make the system unnecessarily messy haha. My original suggestion would have murdered everything most likely. I was going to say it would be cool to have stats like (Str, mag, def, mag, def, ect) but adding it in is harder than starting from scratch lol. I could "potentially" try and make a heros like(much smaller) framework (I built one for an iOS game I'm working on, It allows you to add/modify skills and abilities at runtime XD its kind of fun being able to nerf and buff immediately as the game is being tested or Live lol)

Whats to stop everyone from picking the most OP skills and essentially becoming a juggernaut.

Essentially what Kirine said, the most powerful skills are mainly above 40 in some cases though moving skills could get clumsy. You would only be able to use skills in the order attained and no higher than 40 really. So no lvl 60 wizards with shield reflect.

This would also further increase the gap between lower and higher level characters making it more difficult for new players to get into Herocraft. Higher levels camping lower levels is still a major problem and this would only make it worse tbh :/

You are exactly right. This suggestion does not actually cover that aspect. To be honest it mainly takes after PvE settings as it currently stands. To make it more Pvp oriented there would have to be a much more powerful form of control over player statistics and the like. But practically it would require rebuilding of the Heros pluggin. However if some safety's were put in place it could help.

Actually the issue that danda brought up would be a nice thing to fix before anything really. But the only factor I can think of that could remotely help would be the average battle length going up across the board. (Lowering the ability to be nuked extremely fast in the process. Not sure if people like or dislike that as a whole or in part really.) Perhaps Creating a Bleed out or last stand type of situation that gets triggered if the gap between two levels is too high. Meh not sure.

 

[Paul_Bakken]

[snip]

 

[Danda]

Hmnn. One could sort of achieve this by removing the distinction between class and profession. Essentially, a player would have two areas of expertise at any given time, but they could be any mix of combat class and professions.

This is a horrible fix, all the classes are currently balanced around only having 1 combat class allowing this would destroy any form of balance that exists currently.

Example:
What is the one flaw with a caster? They're squishy and die easily when they enter melee. Now what if someone were to pick Wizard as their primary and choose Paladin as their second. You now have a near perfect class that is near indestructible and has one of the highest damage outputs of any possible combo not to mention the ridiculous amount of utility wizard has ontop of this.

 

[Eldrylars]

This can be made to work but not without tons of work. Some of the best games I have played allowed multi classing which adds tons to the thought that goes into any game.

But the engine has to be built for it and with Herocraft it's not an easy upgrade.

As an example to Danda's scenario. When the Wizard multi classes as a Paladin when his armor level increases his spell damage decreases. 92% damage reduction 92% spell damage reduction. It can work and it can make for some awesome creativity but it also takes tons of work setting up a good system and just as much work balancing the effects to make single and multi classing ALL good while giving players tons of different ways to play.

I agree that this would add a whole new level of player creativity and strategy to Herocraft and would love to see this but it would take a lot to do it.

Oudaiesty Time to get coding!

 

[Oudaiesty]

Yeah Danda's senario does seem quite dire given the level of control the coders currently have over the game. Though even that situation can be avoided if armor equipping capabilities were also mapped to levels as well. Then a wizard/pally would have the utility of a wizard and a full array of damage and partial physical redemption. They wouldn't get the full effect of pally since its nerfed by 20 levels. However, doing so will further increase the gap between players to a certain degree.

The last portion of that statement is not 100% negative or positive, because closing the gap between players defeats the time that longer running players have over newer players. To me at least, I enjoy the reward of hard work and time being put into a game. Just feels nice. But to that same degree, I hate being camped by players that are obviously stronger than me. What keeps me from leaving, in spite of the camping is the fact that I will be rewarded with "Power" -wink wink fake power but in game power none the less-

I'm still thinking about how to keep players happy though Cause yes being helpless sucks.

 

[Oudaiesty]

What would be even more interesting is if someone picked Wizard as their primary and then picked wizard as their secondary. That should call for a class extension.

 

[Carlover1234]

How about the secondary classes can only be leveled to level 20 instead.

 

[lioIIoil]

Yeah a samurai/cleric. Would do 150 hp with sword and has heals and invuln. What about a beguiler/bard? Might+warsong. Kites with accelerando.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Yeah a samurai/cleric. Would do 150 hp with sword and has heals and invuln. What about a beguiler/bard? Might+warsong. Kites with accelerando.

Basically your pointing out how much power each combo has. But what are you actually contributing? Balancing would be needed, though even in those cases the load that certain skills have on mana and/or stamina prolonged fighting is still an issue.

All around there will be massively powerful combos. Which speaks to danda's point. Things that could be easily fixed if we had more control over the system.

 

[northeaster345]

Yeah a samurai/cleric. Would do 150 hp with sword and has heals and invuln. What about a beguiler/bard? Might+warsong. Kites with accelerando.

Part of the point is that almost any combo would be better than classes we have now. It would add more choices, it would also be tough to balance. You're basically adding another 40 levels onto the top of what we have now, of course they'd kill lvl 60 players. However getting those extra 40 levels wouldn't be nearly as hard, because you already have skills to help you level, and the earlier levels go faster anyway

Yeah Danda's senario does seem quite dire given the level of control the coders currently have over the game. Though even that situation can be avoided if armor equipping capabilities were also mapped to levels as well. Then a wizard/pally would have the utility of a wizard and a full array of damage and partial physical redemption. They wouldn't get the full effect of pally since its nerfed by 20 levels. However, doing so will further increase the gap between players to a certain degree

Yeah, perhaps you'd only get full iron as a lvl 40 pally, or chain diamond iron chain, something like that.

Basically we'd have to relook at all the skill progressions again, and change damage to a + per weapon type to your primary. That way if you were DK/ninja, you'd get like 50% of the ninja sword dmg increase per level, but on your axe.

 

[lioIIoil]

Part of the point is that almost any combo would be better than classes we have now. It would add more choices, it would also be tough to balance. You're basically adding another 40 levels onto the top of what we have now, of course they'd kill lvl 60 players. However getting those extra 40 levels wouldn't be nearly as hard, because you already have skills to help you level, and the earlier levels go faster anyway




Yeah, perhaps you'd only get full iron as a lvl 40 pally, or chain diamond iron chain, something like that.

Basically we'd have to relook at all the skill progressions again, and change damage to a + per weapon type to your primary. That way if you were DK/ninja, you'd get like 50% of the ninja sword dmg increase per level, but on your axe.

I really don't like this because you would never have wizard/ninjas. I think if we want to spend the work doing this we should add one more spec to each base class. It doesn't really fit the theme of Herocraft. It would really complicate things. The classes are pretty well balanced. For example a samurai/cleric is so much more powerful that a pyromancer/dragoon. So what will happen is that everyone would be a either warrior class and then have their second class be as a Cleric. For invuln, pray, chant and might duh. Only fools would be combinations like Cleric/mystic because they get repeat skills. I know some classes are popular now but if this gets added certain combos will be much more popular. This seems like it would be fun to have but it isn't really for Herocraft. I think this would mean much less professions for people because anyone with a profession wouldn't be able to PvP against anyone with a double combat class. Pretty much Samurai's were not made to have invuln. I don't think it is right to have, for example a Dreadknight/Paladin. Would they be dark fighters or righteous warriors?

 

[Oudaiesty]

I really don't like this because you would never have wizard/ninjas. I think if we want to spend the work doing this we should add one more spec to each base class. It doesn't really fit the theme of Herocraft. It would really complicate things. The classes are pretty well balanced. For example a samurai/cleric is so much more powerful that a pyromancer/dragoon. So what will happen is that everyone would be a either warrior class and then have their second class be as a Cleric. For invuln, pray, chant and might duh. Only fools would be combinations like Cleric/mystic because they get repeat skills. I know some classes are popular now but if this gets added certain combos will be much more popular. This seems like it would be fun to have but it isn't really for Herocraft. I think this would mean much less professions for people because anyone with a profession wouldn't be able to PvP against anyone with a double combat class. Pretty much Samurai's were not made to have invuln. I don't think it is right to have, for example a Dreadknight/Paladin. Would they be dark fighters or righteous warriors?

So simply put you're saying that thematically it wouldn't work? I don't really see a ninja shaman as an impossibility. as for your matchup (Samurai/Cleric which is technically a Eastern Paladin) Vs A Pyromancer/Dragoon (A Fkin badass DRAGON) That can go many different ways since the Eastern pally lacks the field movement of the Dragon so an invuln would be worthless. They would both wear each others mana down in a super battle.

I think the problem is that you're overwhelmed.

Edit DreadKnight/Paladin (Unholy Knight)

 

[lioIIoil]

So simply put you're saying that thematically it wouldn't work? I don't really see a ninja shaman as an impossibility. as for your matchup (Samurai/Cleric which is technically a Eastern Paladin) Vs A Pyromancer/Dragoon (A Fkin badass DRAGON) That can go many different ways since the Eastern pally lacks the field movement of the Dragon so an invuln would be worthless. They would both wear each others mana down in a super battle.

I think the problem is that you're overwhelmed.

Edit DreadKnight/Paladin (Unholy Knight)

Not really. The samurai/cleric would be able to heal with pray, chant, bandage and has invuln and still does 140 hp with its sword. The dragoon/pyro would be doing 75 hp and cannot heal! Also Pretty much Samurai's usually kill Dragoons and Cleric usually kill Pyros. The pyo can kite but it the cleric part can heal faster.

 

[Oudaiesty]

Not really. The samurai/cleric would be able to heal with pray, chant, bandage and has invuln and still does 140 hp with its sword. The dragoon/pyro would be doing 75 hp and cannot heal! Also Pretty much Samurai's usually kill Dragoons and Cleric usually kill Pyros. The pyo can kite but it the cleric part can heal faster.

Dont forget about mana limitations and the fact that you wouldn't fully be the secondary class. So the effectiveness you're thinking of wouldn't be.

Especially if you limit the mana pool to the primary class a similar concept that northeaster345 spoke of.

I think a more plausible objection would be the difficulty of implementation, or danda's objection. Trying to go through and see what combos would do what to whom would better be left to actual testing.

 

[lioIIoil]

Dont forget about mana limitations and the fact that you wouldn't fully be the secondary class. So the effectiveness you're thinking of wouldn't be.

Especially if you limit the mana pool to the primary class a similar concept that northeaster345 spoke of.

I think a more plausible objection would be the difficulty of implementation, or danda's objection. Trying to go through and see what combos would do what to whom would better be left to actual testing.

I think everyone willhave cleric as a secondary class. It is like the best support class with all the heals invuln, and might.