Player run shops and their place in HC

[Saber993]

I'd like to open a discussion on player run shops and how they can be made worthwhile in Herocraft. As it stands now, advertising simple sales in trade and warping to spawn seems far too common and while I'd like to keep this from being a discussion where the only solution is to remove /spawn, that is one point worth being brought up.

What thoughts do you all have on the subject and what changes do you think would have to take place before player run shops actually work?

 

[csbx]

I'm confused about the problem. If someone wants to buy an item whats wrong with using the spawn as a location? The seller can easily grab the goods, warp to spawn and use the trading booths in spawn to trade (I think they're trading booths).

I think the problem is the owners of the stores are more concerned with getting the users to their location than they are about selling the goods. Making a user go all the way to your city when you can easily meet them at spawn is (in my opinion) selfish and lazy.

The only advantage a store has by being in a different location is the ability to store goods at that location. However, this is hardly an argument as you could simply have a private bank/plot/area you have easy access too to and then use /spawn to go back to the trading booth.

I'm not bashing shops and I do understand that players are trying to create shops and run a "business", but in my opinion they're unnecessary.

 

[Saber993]

I'm confused about the problem. If someone wants to buy an item whats wrong with using the spawn as a location? The seller can easily grab the goods, warp to spawn and use the trading booths in spawn to trade (I think they're trading booths).

I think the problem is the owners of the stores are more concerned with getting the users to their location than they are about selling the goods. Making a user go all the way to your city when you can easily meet them at spawn is (in my opinion) selfish and lazy.

The only advantage a store has by being in a different location is the ability to store goods at that location. However, this is hardly an argument as you could simply have a private bank/plot/area you have easy access too to and then use /spawn to go back to the trading booth.

I'm not bashing shops and I do understand that players are trying to create shops and run a "business", but in my opinion they're unnecessary.

The problem as I see it is an overuse of warping mechanics. The reason you see it as selfish and lazy to force someone to come to you for a trade is...well, currently, it is since /spawn is so readily available. There is no reason NOT to use it for trades.

The purpose of player run shops would be to create a more varied market, make trades more interesting, and "force" (used lightly) players to see more of the world.

 

[csbx]

The problem as I see it is an overuse of warping mechanics.

The warping system's purpose is to be used. "Overusing" something is to say something is being used to a point that it causes a problem. Warping isn't a problem, nothing bad comes of using it. People may see it as a problem because it "preventing" shops from functioning but really shops can function perfectly fine from spawn. The problem is created by shop owners forcing the users to come to their location instead of going to spawn.

You can this in many different games. Trade centers are established in the areas that are easiest to get to (think teleports, start areas etc). Everyone wants to trade the quickest way possible.

There is nothing wrong with having local shops as well as they can be conveniently accessed via hero gates or by people in that area. But you have to remember that these shops will not be as successful as spawn because many users don't want to have to spend money or go out of there way to sell/buy items (costs from hero gates, travel time etc).

A possible solution would be to remove /spawn and add a different solution such as teleporting the user to the closest city. I imagine this would require some advanced scripting and constant moderation (city closures etc).

The reason you see it as selfish and lazy to force someone to come to you for a trade is...well, currently, it is since /spawn is so readily available. There is no reason NOT to use it for trades.

So you're agreeing with me that it is selfish and lazy to not use spawn as a trading point?

The purpose of player run shops would be to create a more varied market, make trades more interesting, and "force" (used lightly) players to see more of the world.

Markets are always varied. Street prices are established and maintained for renewable items. Non-renewable items will almost always increase as time passes. Shops existing or not existing will not play a role in how prices vary as the prices are determined by the players.

Trading goods will always be interesting as each individual player has a different idea of value. How will shops existing or not existing change how a player deems an items value?

As for seeing more of the world, it's human nature to explore. Players will always look for different cities or places. This is the sort of market that minecraft has. Further more shops are inside cities/towns/kingdoms which are already an attraction.

 

[McGreed]

The problem with using just spawn shops is that you can only server one person at a time in some cases. With player runned shops you can have all the cobblestone/dirt/stone ect, you like, for people to come and buy it at a bulk.

Just using Spawn shops is dumb imo, we want people to visit other towns, get they around the world and see whats out there, and shops is a good way to help with that.

 

[csbx]

The problem with using just spawn shops is that you can only server one person at a time in some cases. With player runned shops you can have all the cobblestone/dirt/stone ect, you like, for people to come and buy it at a bulk.

Shop owners could easily use mark and recall to go back and forth between spawn and their storage area.

Just using Spawn shops is dumb imo, we want people to visit other towns, get they around the world and see whats out there, and shops is a good way to help with that.

There are plenty of ways to get people around the server without having shops. You could get a good reputation, run events, run competitions, make amazing structures, promote your city, make unique features and attractions based in your city (think games).

Another option that would enable player run shops to work correctly would be to offer to pay the hero gate fees for them to come to you to trade. (I see this often with gold bars). Or you could even remove the fee from hero gates.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

Well here's something for you guys to consider.

Trading in spawn is SUPPOSED to be illegal unless you've rented a shop (though the staff has been too busy to really enforce this much).

The shops have varying rental costs, depending on who's online to do them, but on average it's about 10 coins per day from what I've seen, more for the big Gold-block shops.

The main problem with this, updating the shops every day is a hassle on the staff.

What I would like is a system to rent a shop for no less than 7 days at a time, and making it a death offense if caught trying to trade inside of Sanctum without being in a shop you have rented. This would encourage the use of a personal shop in a town, and successful shops would find 50-70c per week(possibly 50c, but raw daytoday would be 70c if we choose to not lower it) in a sanctum shop worthwhile if they have enough stock and business.

Honestly, I think every kingdom should have a shop, but not every town. If every town in KoE had a shop, they'd kill eachother's business.

Idk, but that's my take on it.

 

[Saber993]

The warping system's purpose is to be used. "Overusing" something is to say something is being used to a point that it causes a problem. Warping isn't a problem, nothing bad comes of using it. People may see it as a problem because it "preventing" shops from functioning but really shops can function perfectly fine from spawn. The problem is created by shop owners forcing the users to come to their location instead of going to spawn.

But that's just the thing; when you warp so commonly that you don't think about it, the scale of the game is brought down and diminishes the experience. Kain himself has said that he doesn't want people warping as often as they were on the previous map and that's why there's a fee on HGs now and a (planned) railway. The fee will not disappear for sake of shops and the railway is a means of compromise if it ever gets finished. (No one said you should have to walk everywhere; Just not instantly be able to go anywhere.)

There is nothing wrong with having local shops as well as they can be conveniently accessed via hero gates or by people in that area. But you have to remember that these shops will not be as successful as spawn because many users don't want to have to spend money or go out of there way to sell/buy items (costs from hero gates, travel time etc).

Which is why there is an established, UNUSED trade center at the bottom of spawn. The idea is for people to pay to use these convenient shops and then advertise their wares. However, they're still less convenient and more costly than spawn warping so they remain a fragmented implementation.


Player run shops are intended to be the main avenue for trade. Spawning to trade is not.

 

[Neo_Exdeath]

Honestly i haven't liked any shop system since the first map where you had /warp town where everyone would trade. There was always someone there and it felt like a more legitimate trade system since it was in a town. I do agree that trading at spawn should be outlawed though.

 

[Pacatafox]

My opinion?
Why make trading something thats a hassle?

 

[wolfgang784]

As both sides keep pointing out, there are both good and bad things with trading at spawn, with no clear answer, because it really depends on how you personally would like to play the game and if you like easy warping or prefer to walk/minecart.

I think that trading both at spawn and shops is fine, and like dago said if the mods ever get a break from being busy they might enforce not trading at spawn more, but a better solution might be just to make the cool down for /spawn longer so someone can't be doing it often. Like an hour would probably be good. I mean, if you really need to get somewhere fast, make sure your recall is somewhere good.

Player run shops would be more interesting, but also inconvenient, while spawn trading is convenient but not very "minecraft" just warping, dropping, handing over the money, and both warping out.

If the mods ever enforce is people will be angry, if they don't people will be angry, that's why I'll stick to I think both sides are good and that the cool down should just be longer making spawn trading harder for people who use /spawn all the time.

 

[Raetac]

I think that trading both at spawn and shops is fine, and like dago said if the mods ever get a break from being busy they might enforce not trading at spawn more, but a better solution might be just to make the cool down for /spawn longer so someone can't be doing it often. Like an hour would probably be good. I mean, if you really need to get somewhere fast, make sure your recall is somewhere good.

Second that

 

[Kaliven]

Blasphemy has the first full service adventure shop, we will buy your goods for coin, sell you ours, buy your gold @5.5, we make it worth the 3c to visit.

We will sell you practically anything you want, (Cept iron we're hording)

http://herocraftonline.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=177&action=lastpost

Many people only come to blasphemy with their goods, and we're adding more merchants all the time.

 

[DagothAgahnim]

<- goes to blasphemy sometimes.lol

 

[Saber993]

Blasphemy has the first full service adventure shop, we will buy your goods for coin, sell you ours, buy your gold @5.5, we make it worth the 3c to visit.

We will sell you practically anything you want, (Cept iron we're hording)

http://herocraftonline.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=177&action=lastpost

Many people only come to blasphemy with their goods, and we're adding more merchants all the time.

I'm actually planning a shop for KoE with Blasphemy's shop as inspiration. Kudos :]

 

[Abyss]

Well here's something for you guys to consider.

Trading in spawn is SUPPOSED to be illegal unless you've rented a shop (though the staff has been too busy to really enforce this much).

The shops have varying rental costs, depending on who's online to do them, but on average it's about 10 coins per day from what I've seen, more for the big Gold-block shops.

The main problem with this, updating the shops every day is a hassle on the staff.

What I would like is a system to rent a shop for no less than 7 days at a time, and making it a death offense if caught trying to trade inside of Sanctum without being in a shop you have rented. This would encourage the use of a personal shop in a town, and successful shops would find 50-70c per week(possibly 50c, but raw daytoday would be 70c if we choose to not lower it) in a sanctum shop worthwhile if they have enough stock and business.

Honestly, I think every kingdom should have a shop, but not every town. If every town in KoE had a shop, they'd kill eachother's business.

Idk, but that's my take on it.

I've not had a chance to read the entire thread, but might later. But I did read at least your response dagoth, and here's just my input on this idea:

I'm not a big fan of this idea, only because buying shops means only the wealthy really get good shops. A remote shop will basically always have an extra fee of 3c per transaction, for the use of herogates. If you remove herogates from the equation, towns will basically get no trade, compared to the spawn ones.

Trade isn't dynamic enough in a game with mostly static rates for every item. Prices won't fluctuate enough to ever warrant leaving spawn to buy something. and the roads are simply too dangerous to leave spawn in any direction towards a town for the purpose of buying anything.

If we want to discourage spawn usage for buying and selling, we need to think deeper about how every little change will really affect the end-line.

I just feel like there's a lot more depth to this problem than most people realize.

 

[Kaliven]

I've not had a chance to read the entire thread, but might later. But I did read at least your response dagoth, and here's just my input on this idea:

I'm not a big fan of this idea, only because buying shops means only the wealthy really get good shops. A remote shop will basically always have an extra fee of 3c per transaction, for the use of herogates. If you remove herogates from the equation, towns will basically get no trade, compared to the spawn ones.

Trade isn't dynamic enough in a game with mostly static rates for every item. Prices won't fluctuate enough to ever warrant leaving spawn to buy something. and the roads are simply too dangerous to leave spawn in any direction towards a town for the purpose of buying anything.

If we want to discourage spawn usage for buying and selling, we need to think deeper about how every little change will really affect the end-line.

I just feel like there's a lot more depth to this problem than most people realize.

Well said Abyss,

What about removing the chests in spawn tower, completely.

Then the only place to trade would be people's homes, that would at least cut down spawn trading a bit.

It would add 3c to the cost of trading, you COULD trade in sanct, but there wouldn't be a chest there to make it easy, unless you used your home, then people could set up shops in their home. which we don't charge for, just got to be online when mods are clearing out homes.

 

[Abyss]

I've not had a chance to read the entire thread, but might later. But I did read at least your response dagoth, and here's just my input on this idea:

I'm not a big fan of this idea, only because buying shops means only the wealthy really get good shops. A remote shop will basically always have an extra fee of 3c per transaction, for the use of herogates. If you remove herogates from the equation, towns will basically get no trade, compared to the spawn ones.

Trade isn't dynamic enough in a game with mostly static rates for every item. Prices won't fluctuate enough to ever warrant leaving spawn to buy something. and the roads are simply too dangerous to leave spawn in any direction towards a town for the purpose of buying anything.

If we want to discourage spawn usage for buying and selling, we need to think deeper about how every little change will really affect the end-line.

I just feel like there's a lot more depth to this problem than most people realize.

Well said Abyss,

What about removing the chests in spawn tower, completely.

Then the only place to trade would be people's homes, that would at least cut down spawn trading a bit.

It would add 3c to the cost of trading, you COULD trade in sanct, but there wouldn't be a chest there to make it easy, unless you used your home, then people could set up shops in their home. which we don't charge for, just got to be online when mods are clearing out homes.

I don't see how that would change anything. it would just make it more obnoxious, but people would still trade in town. Stealing from trades would still be illegal, so really instead of chests people would just throw stuff on the ground and pick it up. Or, use houses for trading in chests.

Either way, all the same problems will still exist. I point back to my original statement, If we want to discourage spawn usage for buying and selling, we need to think deeper about how every little change will really affect the end-line. Think about what this change will do. People will still use spawn. No change, at all. Just make it more annoying for them.

 

[Kaliven]

You are correct, but as long as /spawn exists there will be spawn trading, pulling the chests out would be a start.

Alternative suggestion:

Spawn trading is now illegal, both parties are killed.

At the EDGE of Sanctums rings is a trading post for public use, much longer walk then using Herogate... and you cant /spawn to it.

or Ideally pull /spawn, replace with /stuck, which notifies an admin to move you to a nearby safe location. Is what I'd like to see.

 

[Chaz8591]

Hm. Correct me if I'm wrong. But wouldn't this be Forcing people to sell to a shop, who are hard bent on making huge profits? What Iif I have a stack of Cactii that I wanna sell for 2C, but the stores will only buy for 1C... If I try to sell to another player directly, wouldn't that be against your proposed rules?