Ninja

[leftovers5]

For Ninja discussion.

 

[macura]

Put blackjack back to 10% chance instead of 5% chance. Without blackjack ninjas don't stand a chance against any warrior spec.

 

[leftovers5]

Put blackjack back to 10% chance instead of 5% chance. Without blackjack ninjas don't stand a chance against any warrior spec.

Or any spec for that matter that likes kiting.

 

[macura]

Or any spec for that matter that likes kiting.

Even though it doesn't sound like much of a nerf it was pretty significant. I used to get around 3-4 blacksjacks a fight, but now i get around 1-2 every other fight. Part of the reason for this is that it is easier to get a second blackjack off once you have already gotten a first one off.

 

[PernixPike]

Maybe we should raise it up to something like 7%? I understand 5% is a low chance, but at 10% it's way too common to stunlock people for an entire fight.

 

[Dsawemd]

Can anyone prove/confirm that Blackjack indeed is easier to land after the first? From personal experience, it does.

This seems to be an aspect of the skill that needs consideration, but is still unknown.

 

[leftovers5]

Can anyone prove/confirm that Blackjack indeed is easier to land after the first? From personal experience, it does.

This seems to be an aspect of the skill that needs consideration, but is still unknown.

The chance should be 3/40 every hit. You may see it land more after the first because you are stunned and easier to hit, and as a result more hits are registered.

 

[macura]

In my opinion ninja needs a high % for blackjack but it does not need energize. Blackjack allows ninja to not get destroyed when in melee range of a warrior because of the cc it randomly provides, while energize only gives more stamina. Even though the stamina is useful energize only promotes not appropriately rationing stamina. I think that energize should go to a different spec, or at least the cd be doubled, and the % of blackjack go back to 10.

(Sidenote, when i say caster i am not talking about pyromancer because their play style differs greatly from the other caster specs)
In fights against casters where the amount of hits you put out are relatives low it is almost impossible to get a blackjack off. With the armor negation from leather a ninja does around 78 damage per hit and the average caster has 824 health. Eviscerate will definitely be used in the fight as well as kick (eviscerated most likely once and probably kicked twice). Eviscerate will deal 199 damage and each kick will deal around 48 damage so the caster will have around 529 health left after all the skills are used. (not putting envenom in here because it is not always used). That means that with another 7 (rounded up) hits the caster will die. The probability for blackjack to go off is around 1 in 13, therefore statistically blackjack will not go off in this fight. When blackjack was 10% it would most likely not go off so why does it need to be even lower.

When fighting warriors after the ninja uses eviscate and kick other than hoping for a blackjack to go off the ninja can do nothing. Energize has the ability to allow the ninja to use another eviscerate however due to eviscate's cooldown (30s) the ninja will most likely be dead by then. The ninja needs to put out as much damage as possible so the only option they have is to use the stamina given from energize to kick or maybe envenom which against armored targets, do almost nothing. The stamina is somewhat useful in a fight against a warrior, however the ninja has nothing useful to use the stamina with.

In conclusion my opinion of energize for ninja is that it is not needed, instead that 10% blackjack proc rate is needed far more.

 

[c12095]

macura

I think we should take Blackjack and turn it into a 100% non passive skill. Make it an activate stun with say, a 10ish second CD, 3-4 Stam Cost. What do you all think?

 

[TheMrLief]

macura

I think we should take Blackjack and turn it into a 100% non passive skill. Make it an activate stun with say, a 10ish second CD, 3-4 Stam Cost. What do you all think?

Would the stun time be the same?

 

[Dsawemd]

If it is going to be a stun for a decent duration it should require skill, as ninjas can deal huge amounts of damage to stunned targets and therefore should have to earn that period of damage with some sort of skill shot (warmup or aimed).

What if ninjas had a singular stun arrow, like a flashbang grenade? That sounds too new for us to talk about, I suppose. I just wanted to get the "reward skilled stunners, do not reward unskilled stunners" part out there, if we are considering removing the %chance on blackjack.

We should try DivineStun-ing various targets and letting a ninja wail on them to get a starting point of reference?

 

[c12095]

Bottom line, anything with a % chance is just a complete annoyance when it comes to balancing. I think if we change it to an activate spell it would work a lot better for the class overall.

 

[Kainzo]

It is not the purpose and goal of the balance team to create new skills - you can use the suggestion forums to do so or code them yourself.

Balance what is currently in the game - not what 'should' be in the game.
Either way, it may be possible to get a short-stun thats physical based but it isnt top priority.

 

[Delfofthebla]

With the exception of one tiny aspect, I believe that the Ninja is currently a relatively balanced class. However, with them receiving blind in the new update, and with that one tiny aspect growing out of control, I worry that they will be too powerful after the update kicks.

The Ninja's melee damage with swords is pretty insane. Every weapon they wield from stone to gold has damage capabilities unlike any other class. I think this is fine, and should stay the same. However, the damage gap between diamond and golden swords is, in my opinion, too much. Whether it be at lvl 60 on Live, or lvl 65 on Test, the gap is far too large.

Here is a comparison of melee classes and their damages at level 65.

LVL 65 Samurai

Diamond - 93 damage​

Gold - 103 damage​

​

LVL 65 Runeblade

Diamond - 83 damage​

Gold - 94 damage​

LVL 65 Paladin

Diamond - 60 damage​

Gold - 72 damage​

LVL 65 Pyromancer

Diamond - 89 damage​

Gold - 94 damage​

LVL 65 DreadKnight

Diamond - 58 damage​

Gold - 70 damage​

LVL 65 Ninja

Diamond - 111 damage​

Gold - 132 damage​

​

In general, I think the damage values of gold weapons need to be altered (and I am posting these suggestions in their relevant class threads) but it's very clear that Ninja contains the most skewed numbers.

Most classes receive an additional 5-12 damage boost from using a gold weapon. However, the Ninja gains an insane 21 damage boost from his. I do not believe this is balanced.

I suggest lowering the Ninja's Diamond sword damage at level 65 by 4, and the Gold sword damage at lvl 65 by 8. This would bring their new Diamond Sword damage down to 107, and their Golden Sword damage to 124. I believe these numbers to be more balanced than the current ones.

What does the rest of the team think?

 

[Warmachinexp]

LVL 65 Ninja

Diamond - 111 damage​

Gold - 132 damage​

​

In general, I think the damage values of gold weapons need to be altered (and I am posting these suggestions in their relevant class threads) but it's very clear that Ninja contains the most skewed numbers.

Most classes receive an additional 5-12 damage boost from using a gold weapon. However, the Ninja gains an insane 21 damage boost from his. I do not believe this is balanced.

I suggest lowering the Ninja's Diamond sword damage at level 65 by 4, and the Gold sword damage at lvl 65 by 8. This would bring their new Diamond Sword damage down to 107, and their Golden Sword damage to 124. I believe these numbers to be more balanced than the current ones.

What does the rest of the team think?

I have to agree with Ninja's Eviscerate and Blitz I don't think a 132 melee damage sword would seem very balanced, especially combo'd with a backstab would be to much damage for any class.

 

[look_out]

Ninjas base Hp needs to be lowered... Right now they feel like a samurai and ninja combined. They have 1000 hp and can wear half iron armor. They are tanky and they can do loads of damage. Right now they are:

HP - high
Damage - high
Armor - med

They need to be:

HP - Low
Damage - High
Armor - med

Give them the same hp as one of the casters.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Ninjas base Hp needs to be lowered... Right now they feel like a samurai and ninja combined. They have 1000 hp and can wear half iron armor. They are tanky and they can do loads of damage. Right now they are:

HP - high
Damage - high
Armor - med

They need to be:

HP - Low
Damage - High
Armor - med

Give them the same hp as one of the casters.

Post some numbers that you think it should change to. Their current "base" hp with no levels is 646.

 

[malikdanab]

Post some numbers. Their current "base" hp with no levels is 646.

Ninja base HP: 646
Max LVL: 902

Paladin base HP: 632
Max LVL: 920

 

[malikdanab]

Similar to the replenish change I suggested, I believe Ninja's energize should have a small warm-up (1.0-1.5 second). Another change i would see as reasonable is to up the base mana cost, but make it more efficient with higher WIsdom.

Old cost: 175 MP
New costs: 215* MP - (5* X Wis) MP

*Depending on how hard this "Nerf" will be, I'm thinking between 200-250 mana
*Thinking about "mana reduction" of 4-6 mana per wisdom.

 

[Delfofthebla]

We don't currently have a system for reducing mana costs based on attributes, unfortunately.

I could see us adding a small warmup to energize though.