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Merchant Suggestions (too much effort for no payoff)

Petator

Glowing Redstone
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
I feel like the current setup for merchant is far too harsh with too little benefit.

Aside from Gift, all merchants get is chest shops. These already required a lot of research and trial and error to get a decent payoff, but there are a few issues:
-The Wiki list is often incorrect (i.e.as a level 35 Merchant I still cannot sell diamonds or chainmail.)
-Chest shops require 50c each, no refunds. If you accidentally type in the wrong ID, or if your neighbors undercut you soon after you post your shop, you're SoL. EDIT: Refund now works.
-Shops in dragon have a significant startup cost on top of the chest shops.
-You get your first economically viable item to sell (iron ingots) at 25, and you don't get most of the good stuff until the 40's.
-The skills sometimes seem disorganized and confusing, and they take up 6 skill pages.
-Many blocks simply fall through the gaps until Sell All at 50, like Snow Blocks.

Not all of these are necessarily bad ( I really like the market district, and the sign cost is there for good reason ) but all together they make the merchant profession way too hard to manage and way too much of a money sink, without any benefit whatsoever aside from gift.

------

I have a few ideas for skills that could make the merchant class easier on the people who play it.

Rework of the current sell skills:
I'd like for the sell skillset to be condensed and organized based on simple rarity, not shop viability. This way useful shop items are obtained more gradually and a level 10 merchant has something to sell:

Level 10 - Sell Class 1 Items: Class 1 consists of all blocks and materials that are readily available from the surface, like Logs, Sandstone, Snow, Wood Tools, etc and passive mob drops.

Level 20 - Sell Class 2 Items: Class 2 consists of all items that can be easily obtained from a shallow mine, like Iron, Coal, Stone and Stone Tools. More complex/harder to craft class 1 goods (like cooked/farm foods, leather armor, glass) should be here as well.

Level 30 - Sell Class 3 Items: Class 3 consists of blocks and items from deep mining, like Obsidian, Diamonds, Lapis, and Iron Tools. Aggressive mob drops too.

Level 40 - Sell Class 4 Items: Class 4 consists of items generated by other professions (potions, chainmail) as well as diamond/gold tools and armor

Level 50 - Sell Class 5 Items: Class 5 is everything else, mostly Nether stuff. I suppose it could be Sell All to catch anything falling through the cracks of the previous levels, but I hope no items/blocks will need to be caught like that.

More skills that don't involve chest shops:
Merchants currently only function based on profitable chest shops. If you aren't able to get one, then you may as well have not even specced. Here are some skill ideas to make merchants more fun and more viable outside of the trade district, as well as improve their trade district experience:

Level 1 - Refund Shop: Under certain circumstances, this can be used on a newly made shop sign to break it and get your money back. EDIT: Refund now works.

Level 5 - Feeling Lucky: Merchant can buy twice as many lotto tickets.

Level 15 - Mercantile Contacts 1: Mobs have a higher chance of dropping coin, have a very small chance of dropping double coin, and bounties have a 10% bonus.

Level 25 - Money in the Bag: Each gold ingot in your inventory gives you 1% increased exp for both your prof and your combat class, maxing at +64% with a full stack.

Level 35 - Mercantile Contacts 2: Mobs always drop coin, have a slightly greater chance of double coin, and bounties have a 20% bonus.

Level 45 - Gift: As it currently is.

Level 55 - Haggle: 1 gold ingot, 300 seconds, once per day; items can be bought from chest shops at a 10% discount. This should definitely not apply to gold ingots.

EDIT: oh, and @Kainzo @Sleaker
 

Troppics

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Some awesome suggestions here. Particularly the 'Class Tier' selling skills. Makes life a lot easier.

Merchant is a very hard spec to benifit from at the moment. I think some of these changes would do it some good.

<3 Trop
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
This skill set alone took 3-5 hours to config, @Danda helped with the dev of ChestShops. Danda feel free to read over this and let me know what you think (dont have time atm)

"Chest shops require 50c each, no refunds. " <--- there is a refund.
SHOP_REFUND_PRICE: 40
 

Plasma78

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Location
USA
I have tested the refund bit, nothing comes back, it just sits.
you can break sign or chest, no refund. :(

its alot of work and i like where the skill set is going, needs some tweaks but WOO HOOO !!
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
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Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
-The Wiki list is often incorrect (i.e.as a level 35 Merchant I still cannot sell diamonds or chainmail.)
The Wiki is not incorrect. I created that wiki list from the config file. I also tested it this morning I can make both of those at level 35 Merchant. The fault is not the wiki's it is yours
-Chest shops require 50c each, no refunds. If you accidentally type in the wrong ID, or if your neighbors undercut you soon after you post your shop, you're SoL.
Wrong you do get refunds from chest shops. This was once again confirmed this morning in my testing.

-You get your first economically viable item to sell (iron ingots) at 25, and you don't get most of the good stuff until the 40's.
Not true you can sell Iron Ingots are 24 anyway besides that little nit pick if you were to actually think about any of this you would realise that there is a small work around and you can actually sell Iron Blocks at 11.
-Many blocks simply fall through the gaps until Sell All at 50, like Snow Blocks.
Also incorrect Snowblocks are under Basic blocks.

EVERY singe item is inside the config file. Including unobtainable blocks like portal blocks placed redstone etc.

@Petator
Please get your facts straight before posting things like this.
 

Petator

Glowing Redstone
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
@Petator
Please get your facts straight before posting things like this.

Jesus Christ, man. I'm sorry if I gave offense. I did not intend to, and I understand that dealing with an extremely large config file with nearly every single data value in it must not be fun. Thank you for testing the refund system; I was thrown off by it being invisible.

BUT: Did you actually test the blocks in-game? I tried to make a chest shop for snow blocks at lvl 30-ish, no dice. "SellChainmail" from the wiki doesn't even exist in-game, and chain doesn't fall under "SellIronGrade". Just yesterday, I found that half the useful things that SHOULD fall under "SellMobDrops" -- string and leather -- do not. Please test these before blowing up on me any further.

Each time, the sign popped off and I got the error "You cannot make this type of shop", not "You have entered an invalid item ID".

I did not personally test diamonds because I didn't know there was a refund on shops. I heard through trade chat that you could only make diamond shops at 50.

Something is going wrong in-game, even if the config file is in order.

Even if the skills did work as intended, my suggestion still stands: I think the current merchant is easily the worst profession, and it needs improvement. There is no utility, there are no perks, and it takes 40-50 levels to become even slightly effective at what it does: spend a lot of research, work, and money on a shop that may eventually pay off.

And don't tell me that merchants below 40 can make profitable shops. You know they cannot.
 

Plasma78

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Location
USA
I just test several chest shops
NO REFUND
just took the 50c and never got any back
when i do make one it says, you dont have permissions for this
still can make a shop.

( even looked at money count, did not get a refund , fyi i do know about it not showing up in chat.)

Even if the skills did work as intended, my suggestion still stands: I think the current merchant is easily the worst profession, and it needs improvement. There is no utility, there are no perks, and it takes 40-50 levels to become even slightly effective at what it does: spend a lot of research, work, and money on a shop that may eventually pay off.

And don't tell me that merchants below 40 can make profitable shops. You know they cannot.

I agree with this.

Have you looked at the skills? a door shop? WHO THE HELL IS GUNNA SELL DOORS??!?!? iorn or wood. ftw
they cheaper to make then the 50c cost of a chest shop

I agree, the whole skill set NEEDS re-worked BADLY.

http://www.herocraftonline.com/wiki/index.php/ChestShop_Levels

From what I can see, it was made via item list and not from chestshop/merchant stand point.

I see alot of double stuff in there too.

ores at level 17
  • Iron Ore
  • Coal Ore
  • Gold Ore
  • Redstone Ore
  • Lapis Ore
  • Diamond Ore
Yet at level 24 :
Ingots
  • Iron Ingots
  • Diamonds
  • Gold Ingots
And yet again at 50
SELL EVERYTHING


I can sell gold ore at 17 which isnt bad, but again at 24 and 50?

why? there is no reward for leveling the merchant up. Most the GOOD shops are higher level.

this is another good one:

Misc tool at lvl 29:
  • Flint & Steel - donor one
  • Buckets - 3 iron , way easy to make
  • Compass - cheaper to make and only ranger can use
  • Clock - has no point, and can be a waste of gold
  • Map - ries minimap does away with this
  • Sheers - 2 iron... hmm mmm
  • Fishing Rod - farmer only, they gunna make one rather then buy
again:

Redstone Wiring & Devices level 43

hm redstone is pretty common now and everything related to it is made by engineers has very tiny profit or use.
As I stated above, it was made via item list and not from chestshop/merchant stand point.
Whats the draw to BE a merchant?? to sell stuff, then why is the skills hindering us?
from a player stand point, best thing for me to do is not sell ANYTHING till I am level 50, then i can do what i want.

Could i get a copy of the config file? so I can go thro and see about reworking it like was suggested? makes more sense to do it by block and depth then it does by items.
 

Dazureus

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Location
Texas
I like Petator's "altitude-based" setup for shop permissions.
Surface -> Small Mines-> Large Mines-> Nether/End
Seems like a wonderfully elegant way to deal with it. I want to make a list, item by item, that plays into this idea.

As far as non-shop skills for Merchant, I think that Gift is only a start. I get the impression that restricting Chest Shops to Merchants was perceived as a big deal, which is why Merchant got almost nothing else. A couple other general-use skills, especially ones that are marketable (like, you're going to want a Merchant to use it for you) would be greatly appreciated. Haggle seems to be similar to that, burning gold ingots for shop discounts for buying in large quantities.
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
Staff member
Administrator
Guide
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Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
I just test several chest shops
NO REFUND
just took the 50c and never got any back
when i do make one it says, you dont have permissions for this
still can make a shop.
Well I got a refund this morning as my screenshot proves.
So clearly it does work, but there are some issues with it.
Where did you test it, inside the Dragon Region?
If so there might be an issue with the shop region and the Main Dragon region interfering with each other.
Jesus Christ, man. I'm sorry if I gave offense. I did not intend to, and I understand that dealing with an extremely large config file with nearly every single data value in it must not be fun. Thank you for testing the refund system; I was thrown off by it being invisible.
Ok I think I came across the wrong way. I was not offended by you :p

BUT: Did you actually test the blocks in-game? I tried to make a chest shop for snow blocks at lvl 30-ish, no dice. "SellChainmail" from the wiki doesn't even exist in-game, and chain doesn't fall under "SellIronGrade". Just yesterday, I found that half the useful things that SHOULD fall under "SellMobDrops" -- string and leather -- do not. Please test these before blowing up on me any further.

Each time, the sign popped off and I got the error "You cannot make this type of shop", not "You have entered an invalid item ID".

I did not personally test diamonds because I didn't know there .
I did test them ingame. What are you using when attempting to create a Snow block shop?

And don't tell me that merchants below 40 can make profitable shops. You know they cannot.
I am a level 35 merchant I have made 1.5k in one day. I know they can.
Could i get a copy of the config file? so I can go thro and see about reworking it like was suggested? makes more sense to do it by block and depth then it does by items.
Which one? there is like 3 :p
I agree, the whole skill set NEEDS re-worked BADLY.
I also agree I was merely pointing out the he was incorrect about a lot of things.
I see alot of double stuff in there too.

ores at level 17
  • Iron Ore
  • Coal Ore
  • Gold Ore
  • Redstone Ore
  • Lapis Ore
  • Diamond Ore
Yet at level 24 :

Ingots
  • Iron Ingots
  • Diamonds
  • Gold Ingots
And yet again at 50

SELL EVERYTHING

I can sell gold ore at 17 which isnt bad, but again at 24 and 50?

Gold Ore and Gold Ingots are two different items.
Sell Everything then allows you to sell other items that are not in the main list.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
Thanks for help manage this Danda :)

We'll get the issue hammered out - the merchant class is mostly chestshop king - but you do have to level it still.
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
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Jan 21, 2011
I agree we probably need to move away from your grouping a bit and either go to Moe's origional design or to Petator's altitude based design.

If you want I can start working on the config files for either of those.
 

Plasma78

Legacy Supporter 7
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Location
USA
any help i can lend :p

I tested it int he wild, nd i get refunded.
in town its a 50/50 shot still tracking that bit down.
havent had to test in spawn/trade district yet.

As for rest, didnt mean to come off as bashing or mean or etc.

If we can tweak it, it will help server out alot, and BECOME NUMBER 1 !!!!!!!
 

Petator

Glowing Redstone
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
I am a level 35 merchant I have made 1.5k in one day. I know they can.

Ha! Good point. Ofc, you're kind of a special case with the hellriders thing and all :p

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by what I used to try and create my snow block shop, but the item name I used for the sign was "SNOW_BLOCK" and I tried again with the item id with no success.
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
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Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Hmm ok I'll give it a try in a sec but it is defiantly in the config which means the issue is elsewhere.

EDIT: Tested it and worked perfectly fine. No issues.
@Petator
What was the actual block ID# you used?
jomaA.jpg
 

Petator

Glowing Redstone
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Hm, I must've messed up the item id, my bad. The "Snow_Block" did return "You can't make this type of shop", though.

There are two more items that I'd like to sell -- and that I should be able to sell -- but can't : leather and chainmail.

20ab0js.png

294nucj.png

aeqlo0.png

30x95pe.png
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
Staff member
Administrator
Guide
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Max Legacy Supporter
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Hm, I must've messed up the item id, my bad. The "Snow_Block" did return "You can't make this type of shop", though.

There are two more items that I'd like to sell -- and that I should be able to sell -- but can't : leather and chainmail.
You put the underscore when I didn't that was probably the issue.
As for chainmail you are putting chain instead of chainmail
for instance to make a chain boots shop like you just tried you need to type "chainmailboots"
@Petator

Though you are correct Leather shops do not seem to be working.

EDIT: I have found the issue :p
made a small cock up in the config.

@Kainzo
Inside permission-skills.yml can you change ChestShop.shop.create.mobdrops to ChestShop.shop.create.monsterdrops
 

Danda

Dungeon Master Extremist
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Jan 21, 2011
random double post >.<
 
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