Suggestion Mana drinker

[peterpunx]

The suggestion: Give some of the tank / healer classes a skill to be steal mana from the target. It should be a small amount and low cooldown. Changing ManaFreeze from dreadknights would be a good example, stealing mana instead of regenerating (lower cd and not a big amount).

Reasons: Right now theres no direct counter for Disciples or Paladins, they keep healing while they are on mele fighting. I think a good way to solve that, without messing other "base on mana" classes, would be that, giving another mele fighting the ability to make them run out of mana if the mele fight takes too long.

 

[JupiterRome]

The suggestion: Give some of the tank / healer classes a skill to be steal mana from the target. It should be a small amount and low cooldown. Changing ManaFreeze from dreadknights would be a good example, stealing mana instead of regenerating (lower cd and not a big amount).

Reasons: Right now theres no direct counter for Disciples or Paladins, they keep healing while they are on mele fighting. I think a good way to solve that, without messing other "base on mana" classes, would be that, giving another mele fighting the ability to make them run out of mana if the mele fight takes too long.

I gotta agree with it but don't think you Realize Disciple actually does run outta mana pretty fast in pvp, but then they have meditate and Paladin does run out pretty quick too just sayin

 

[lordprettyflack0]

Lunar lance hurts disciples

 

[HeroGuy426]

I haven't really done much dragooning, but lunar lance can take away someone's mana, so can't dragoon pretty much already do this? If they have enough stamina. But there's already a thread about that.

 

[peterpunx]

I know dragoons can do it, not many people play dragoon now.

Anyway, my intention was a really low cd like 5sec and only taking 50 mana, with almost any stamina cost. Just to be effective if u spam it and u are at mele all the time.

They both run out of mana, but during that time, they are really difficult to kill. Thats why ill like some classes could steal some mana and make them run out of faster.

 

[LordZelkova]

I know dragoons can do it, not many people play dragoon now.

Anyway, my intention was a really low cd like 5sec and only taking 50 mana, with almost any stamina cost. Just to be effective if u spam it and u are at mele all the time.

They both run out of mana, but during that time, they are really difficult to kill. Thats why ill like some classes could steal some mana and make them run out of faster.

One problem: If you can spam any form of mana drain skill, you're going to fuck up all the casters and healers. Im ok with another mana drain skill, but not a low cd low cost skill. While classes like Disc and Pally do seem strong with their heals and melee, they have their weaknesses. Both of those classes are Hybrids, meaning they use Stam and Mana. This means that they have 2 pools to watch, and they can be outclassed by other classes in respect to those abilities.
The Heals: Cleric
The Mele: Warriors, Rogues

And of course, Kiting. While Pally does have Reckoning (Really useful skill, Air's killed me with that more than I'd like to admit) and Disc has The force, if you can kit them with ranged attacks/skills (Bonespear, Arrows, Etc) they can be taken down.

Also, if you're in mele range, you more than likely have an advantage over Pally and Disc as you are probably a stronger melee class.

 

[Ahrall]

Going to draw a page from League of Legends to show why mana burn is a mechanic that needs to die

Straight from Riot's Phreak

2. Its use case is counter-intuitive. Normally one would think, "Oh, Mana Burn! That's an anti-mage ability right?" Wrong. It's actually best against tanks. Tanks are just as reliant on Mana as mages are, but tanks have significantly smaller mana pools than mages, in general.

3. It actually sucks really hard to run out of Mana, compared to a similar ability like Silence. They ultimately serve the same purpose of "you can't cast abilities."

- When you Silence someone you go, "Oh sweet! I locked out his Flash, cancelled his channel, and he can't Ice Blast me as I run away." Meanwhile the other guy goes, "Alright, he stopped my channel, grats to him. But I'm back on my feet in 2-3 seconds. No worries!" Overall, this is a pretty fun situation.

The concept applies directly to herocraft. Classes that get gimped the most by mana burn are classes that cast a lot, but aren't "mages." Bard, Dreadknight, Disciple, Ranger, and Ninja all have important skills that rely on mana but are gated by very small mana pools.(working as intended)
So when you take out enough mana to hinder a wizard or beguiler, you are going to utterly screw over the above mentioned classes

 

[Jrr_]

paladins get mana thirsty so quickkkk

 

[Delfofthebla]

The concept applies directly to herocraft. Classes that get gimped the most by mana burn are classes that cast a lot, but aren't "mages." Bard, Dreadknight, Disciple, Ranger, and Ninja all have important skills that rely on mana but are gated by very small mana pools.(working as intended)
So when you take out enough mana to hinder a wizard or beguiler, you are going to utterly screw over the above mentioned classes

Riot is correct on that statement, other than the guy who got interrupted saying "No worries". It is probably closer to "FUCK YOU". But yeah.

You are correct that it applies to the Herocraft situation. Mana drain rapes classes with low mana pools, and slightly hinders the classes it was intended for. But there is a minor work-around to that type of issue. If a mana drain skill drains mana based on a percentage of the target's max mana rather than a set amount, it would not impact those small mana pool classes quite as much as it would a Wizard or Beguiler.

With that said, I don't think we need more mana draining skills. If you're looking to counters to paladins, I would think Runeblade, Pyro, and Dragoon would do quite well against them, but I know there's been a lot of balance changes lately so I don't know for sure.

As for mana diminishing skills, we have
Lunar Lance
Darkblade, (At least I think that was the name. It's the Pyromancer melee skill.)
and ManaFreeze.

ManaFreeze stops regen. I know "stopping regen" may not seem that powerful, but paladins who are healing a lot probably have very high wisdom levels. High wisdom = high mana regen. Assuming that they regent around 10-14 mana per second, It only takes 5 seconds to "drain" the same amount that the other skills drain. The higher their regen is, the quicker you reach that point.

 

[JupiterRome]

One problem: If you can spam any form of mana drain skill, you're going to fuck up all the casters and healers. Im ok with another mana drain skill, but not a low cd low cost skill. While classes like Disc and Pally do seem strong with their heals and melee, they have their weaknesses. Both of those classes are Hybrids, meaning they use Stam and Mana. This means that they have 2 pools to watch, and they can be outclassed by other classes in respect to those abilities.
The Heals: Cleric
The Mele: Warriors, Rogues

And of course, Kiting. While Pally does have Reckoning (Really useful skill, Air's killed me with that more than I'd like to admit) and Disc has The force, if you can kit them with ranged attacks/skills (Bonespear, Arrows, Etc) they can be taken down.

Also, if you're in mele range, you more than likely have an advantage over Pally and Disc as you are probably a stronger melee class.

Necro cant kill a disciple, it just aint happening if the disciple is good then all necro has is bonespear, (chakra OP)

@Naxet91 I agree some classes (like paladin and disciple) may need nerfs, but thinking about it I don't really like this idea, I mean
Disciple and paladin are both pretty mana hungry, meditate is just all around a very good skill and paladin is just well fuckin tanky XD,
Also Don't we already have Darkblade and lunar lance? Both pretty good skills imo, (really really good vs cleric)

My other post didn't have a lot of thought or reason put into it
*cough* @Dsawemd bby you happy with quality posts? *cough*

 

[LordZelkova]

Necro cant kill a disciple, it just aint happening if the disciple is good then all necro has is bonespear, (chakra OP)

@Naxet91 I agree some classes (like paladin and disciple) may need nerfs, but thinking about it I don't really like this idea, I mean
Disciple and paladin are both pretty mana hungry, meditate is just all around a very good skill and paladin is just well fuckin tanky XD,
Also Don't we already have Darkblade and lunar lance? Both pretty good skills imo, (really really good vs cleric)

My other post didn't have a lot of thought or reason put into it
*cough* @Dsawemd bby you happy with quality posts? *cough*

I didnt mean Necro solo. I was simply giving an example of a ranged skill that can be used against it.

 

[JupiterRome]

I didnt mean Necro solo. I was simply giving an example of a ranged skill that can be used against it.

otay

 

[Dsawemd]

The suggestion: Give some of the tank / healer classes a skill to be steal mana from the target.

I'd Prefer seeing a class like Shaman or Beserker or whatever get a new skill that works like ThickenBlood, but on mana.

/Skill Oom: The target instantly loses 100% or their mana, after X seconds mana is restored.

 

[Ahrall]

/Skill Oom: The target instantly loses 100% or their mana, after X seconds mana is restored.

So basically a silence

 

[Dsawemd]

So basically a silence

Basically.

It would have a similar level of utility to ThickenBlood.

TB forces them to be slow, but only prevents skills that cost stamina.

Oom would not affect movement, but it would "silence" a higher percentage of classes and skills.

Edit: unlike mana freeze, mana regeneration would continue, so a class with a mana-gain skill could potentially counter part of Oom's duration by regening enough to use their mana-gain skill.

 

[Delfofthebla]

Basically.

It would have a similar level of utility to ThickenBlood.

TB forces them to be slow, but only prevents skills that cost stamina.

Oom would not affect movement, but it would "silence" a higher percentage of classes and skills.

Edit: unlike mana freeze, mana regeneration would continue, so a class with a mana-gain skill could potentially counter part of Oom's duration by regening enough to use their mana-gain skill.

ThickenBlood's primary goal was to slow your movement and actions. It started out as a skill that drained your stamina. If it was timed correctly, it would stop you from sprinting, and any further skill uses would result in an even longer duration to which you could not sprint. But that's what it was, a skill that punished you for spending stamina.

The new ThickenBlood took a different approach. The primary goal was to stop your sprinting from the beginning, but not permanently damage your stamina pool. The "silence" effect it has was really more of an extra component to this idea. I felt as though the "melee silence" was a nice bonus to complete the skill, and so I shortened the duration and left it as is.

But with mana, there is no "extra" factor. Having a mana pool below 40% does not slow your casting, or cause your spells to do less damage. It simply means you have a smaller pool to pull spells from. So, with that in mind, your idea seems really awkward. Why hold their mana hostage if the end result is the same? If haulting their mana regen and silencing them is the goal, then you can simply have a skill that does just that. Adding a silence on top of ManaFreeze would do exactly what you want.

But your comment on it affecting more classes should be incorrect. Anything that costs mana is considered a spell. I did a comb through of all abilities before Haven and I stuck to that rule when editing the abilities. If there are any abilities that use mana but are not "silencable", this is a bug, not a design choice.

 

[Egorh]

I know people have been saying Disciple is OP, and I do have to admit that it is on the strong side but in my opinion protection armor plays a large role in the 'why the fuck won't it die'. With Disciple's kit and Protection armor the damage being dealt to it seems minimal. Protection armor is very strong on every class but it just goes hand in hand with Disciple's kit. Small-constant heals with medium damage. You have the defensive abilities that just result in you taking less damage.

For Paladin their mana does go down fairly fast but the mana is not why it is OP

To be on topic:
I do feel like mana freeze is lacking in terms of how useful it really is but Lunar Lance is a strong skill that will put a large dent into someone's mana pool. Overall people moved away from Dragoon do to the changes-Dragon Dash is fairly unreliable from what I've heard (I still think that it is a good class. When something gets nerfed people will always think that it is extremely worst compared to what it was. For example, Bloodmage was considered very bad pretty much all of the map but a few people started to play it and it is considered somewhat strong). I will be hoping for a Dragoon a buff to make it on par with the other classes.

 

[Dsawemd]

ThickenBlood removes Stamina Bar, slows movement as "extra factor"-Snip-
1. But with mana, there is no "extra" factor. Having a mana pool below 40% does not slow your casting, or cause your spells to do less damage. It simply means you have a smaller pool to pull spells from. So, with that in mind, your idea seems really awkward. Why hold their mana hostage if the end result is the same? If haulting their mana regen and silencing them is the goal, then you can simply have a skill that does just that. Adding a silence on top of ManaFreeze would do exactly what you want.

2. But your comment on it affecting more classes should be incorrect. Anything that costs mana is considered a spell. I did a comb through of all abilities before Haven and I stuck to that rule when editing the abilities. If there are any abilities that use mana but are not "silencable", this is a bug, not a design choice.

Let me first just say that @Delfofthebla your posts are always really helpful, but tend to focus on "This is the original idea as I intended it" rather than "This is what players use the skill for today". The latter is more useful and practical, and it is what the rest of us prefer to talk about, because we do not play the game exactly as you intended.

1. Holding their mana Hostage will be an "awkward silence", but that is not why I suggested it. /skill Oom is NOT an awkward silence, it is a temporary debuff to resource levels.

• It is not meant to be added to ManaFreeze, it would be an entirely different skill.
  
• Oom would prevent the player from casting skills that have large mana costs for either the duration or until enough regen happens, which suddenly forces the enemy to be much more careful with their resource management. NOT a silence.
  
• Example 1: The enemy Ranger gets Oom'd. Suddenly the burst DPS from Envenom and ExplosiveShot is not as efficient as using AimedShot while you wait out the Oom (AimedShot costs 25 mana).
• Example 2: The enemy Pyromancer gets Oom'd. Suddenly their non-melee burst is down, while still likely being able to wait for 90 mana to use ChaoticStrength and Maim if they needed to maintain some DPS.
  
• Example 3: The enemy Berserker gets Oom'd. Berserkers do not use mana for their skills, you just wasted Oom.
  
• Example 1-3 clearly show that various classes have complex counterplay to this idea, and that it will feel more immediate and game-changing than the Tank skill, ManaFreeze.

2. As you can clearly see from the wiki, there is a balance of classes that use ONLY stamina, classes that use ONLY mana, and the rest are a decent variety of hybrid resource users. My point regarding percentage of skills affected was poorly worded: If a Ninja or Dragoon lost their stamina bar but maintained their movement speed they would maintain much of their DPS. If a Beguiler or a Druid lost their mana bar but maintained their movement speed, they would lose much of their DPS. Mana skills make up a higher percentage of a caster kit's damage than the percentage of a melee class's damage is determined by Stamina skills, because most of the stamina classes are basic attack reliant. That is why the pure counter to a caster is called "Silence" and the pure counter to a basic attack class is called "Disarm".

• /skill ThickenBlood lowers Stamina, which slows your potential movespeed. Why is this such an effective debuff on most stamina heavy classes? THEY ARE MELEE. They rely on Left Click damage for a decent chunk of their DPS. ThickenBlood lowers their offensive and defensive potential.
  
• /skill Oom lowers Mana, which as you point out in #1 has no "Extra factor". HOWEVER, the mana reliant classes are SKILL RELIANT rather than purely positional/left click based for their DPS and Survivability. They do DPS, and survive, through Mana SKILLS and have less emphasis on melee and vanilla running. Oom lowers their offensive and defensive potential.

If I have been unclear in the difference between the uses for ThickenBlood, ManaFreeze, and Oom, let me know and I will explain my thoughts.


TL R - last 2 bullet points, capitalization is to be helpful not bitchy. I agree that we need more counterplay to Mana hungry healers than we currently have in-game, without extending silences or other Zero-Counterplay options.