Lets talk about grief (new map)

[Kainzo]

So we want to use GriefProtection, a system that lets users claim areas and supporters have more claim.

It's the current system that Townships will be based off of until 4.0 (think of it as 3.5)

We want to do away with users having to place signs on buildings before claiming (if its not protected by your allotment, sorry you cant own that)

Things we don't want to enable by using this system:
1) Terrible terrain, gravel everywhere etc
2) Driving away players due to bad terrain


There's been quite a discussion in it and I'd like to get the feels of what players think / want and possible ideas.
The current ruling on the new map is "if you dont have it protected, its fair game" but we can add some stipulations to that. We want the community to policy / run itself as much as possible and this was a step to give you guys powers, vs having to wait 7 days to fix / claim abandoned areas.

 

[Beau_Nearh]

Id like to see the following blocks added to the list of blocks that we're allowed to steal/ grief during a raid;

+Bookcases
+Pistons/ Dispensers/ droppers/ hopper's
+Enchanting tables
+Potion stands
+Gold/ Iron/ Diamond/ Emerald/ Redstone/ Lapis and even Coal blocks (I am aware half of these are already on the list of allowed blocks)
+Packed ice
+Heads (both player and mob heads)
+[Place holder]

Other things Id like to see on the new map;

+TNT damage enabled outside of claimed areas (Always had a build up of TNT but didn't have a use for it for both raiding and mining)
+Dungeons to be reset regularly (This is one of the most important points)
+Actual neutral mobs within the world (Rarely saw any of them on the last map that wasn't spawned by a farmer)
+[Place holder]

Regarding claimed area's;

+Allow for multiple players to 'claim' the same area, not everyone can stay active for the sake of the claim
+Give us a way of checking accurately when a player has last been online
+Give us the ability to claim 'roads' built to specific locations (dungeons, herogates, ect)
+[Place holder]

 

[TheManiac23]

I think with TnT Damage on blocks the whole map will be a big hole sooner or later

 

[Belisarius1991]

Just to clarify, what are the current blocks that players are allowed to grief/steal during a raid?

Id like to see the following blocks added to the list of blocks that we're allowed to steal/ grief during a raid;

+Bookcases
+Pistons/ Dispensers/ droppers/ hopper's
+Enchanting tables
+Potion stands
+Gold/ Iron/ Diamond/ Emerald/ Redstone/ Lapis and even Coal blocks (I am aware half of these are already on the list of allowed blocks)
+Packed ice
+Heads (both player and mob heads)
+[Place holder]

I would like to point out that the more blocks that are added to the list as "steal-able" during sieges (I am assuming that is what Beau_Nearh means by steal/grief during raids) the fewer blocks people will use in their buildings.

I love to build myself, so I hate to keep adding more and more blocks to what may be stolen from builds. Perhaps I can see allowing Diamond, Gold, and Emerald blocks to be stolen (though I'm not even fond of this), but I don't think Iron, Coal, Redstone, or Lapis should be allowed to be stolen/griefed from builds. They are not rare enough to merit this. Also, as I have mentioned, this would mostly eliminate these blocks from being used in building.

Furthermore, if what Beau_Nearh means is to add them to the list of "soft-blocks" of siege, this doesn't make sense for Iron and Diamond blocks especially. They are the toughest materials in game.

I would caution adding so many blocks to the steal-able/grief-able list. Bookshelves would simply break without silk touch correct? And Brewing Stands can only be removed by Alchemists right? Same goes for Engineer's and respective items. I can't remember if these can be broken or not.

If heads can be stolen people will never display them as trophies, but will simply hide them away in chests. What is the fun in that?

A lot of what I am suggesting is that if you add the blocks as items that can be stolen from builds, then you are reducing them to items of monetary value and stripping them of their worth as building/decorative blocks. I don't want this.

 

[kperkins1982]

I have a few questions regarding greif that are very important to me.

1. During a siege it has been stated players may break blocks. Is it the intention that this is for the purpose of pvp or access, ie a player breaks through a wall to fight another player or raid chests?

Or

Is it that, but also greifing in general? I'm perfectly ok with going through a wall for pvp or raiding, but would be incredibly against just greifing in general. The idea that some crew of players coming to my town and killing me and stealing is fine, but after doing so them knocking down all my creations and taking the blocks, well that is sort of a deal breaker.

2. And this is the big one.

Outside of the greif during a siege is it that greif is to be allowed?

I'm very excited about the new map, and some of the changes being made. It would make me very happy to see our player base expand and get back to the numbers we've seen in the past. I remember a time where I had to queue for login because we were so busy!

However the greifing thing, just might have the opposite effect.

Currently I feel safe that if I build something other players know it is ok to steal from my chests but it is against the rules to destroy my build. And even if they did I know they will be dealt with. However if on the new map if it were to be the case that not only could they destroy my creations, but not be punished.

Well I would leave the server until such time that the decision was reversed.

However I'm hoping that I just don't yet know all the details and am assuming the worst.

It seems insane to me that we'd go from the system we have now to people waking up to destroyed houses covered in cobble penises and that being ok.

 

[Belisarius1991]

I have made a few mentions in various posts around the forums about this subject, because I especially want this server to maintain a pristine, nice looking appearance as much as is possible. I have been worried that with saying "Griefing is legal" we would be opening the floodgates to mindless/senseless destruction of not only unprotected builds but of the wilderness itself.

I can understand the need to alleviate the workload on the upper-staff members. And I can see how that by removing the need to claim and wait, we can more easily remove ugly/abandoned builds.

But I am worried that people may take this as a stamp of approval to go through the wilderness and wreck havoc. I have seen, as we all have, many servers where legal griefing leads to maps obliterated by ridiculous and needless griefing. None of us want this. I suggest that senseless griefing of the wilderness still be reportable and ban-able. Generally speaking, it should be fairly obvious when such an instance has taken place.

If we don't like the possibility of just anyone reporting grief, might it be possible we limit only staff members (such as guides, proctors, and other low-level staff members) to creating petitions regarding severe griefing of the wilderness?

I am sure there will be some problems/gray areas but we must have something in place to prevent this.

Also, enabling tnt damage to destroy blocks is a definite no no. That should be entirely out of the question. People would use tnt to wreck unimaginable amounts of chaos.

 

[peterpunx]

I believe that the siege purpose is to be able to get inside a protected area, so the blocks that the GP plugin allows you to grief should be building blocks, the ones most used for walls.

I think the blocks that the rules allow to steal should stay the same, and maybe add some other rare blocks to the list. But do not allow the plugin to steal those rare blocks if they are protected.

You just cant have no griefing rules if you want good looking structures. Players are gonna grief just for the purpose of annoy other players.

 

[Belisarius1991]

I believe that soft blocks should be limited to just that, soft blocks. I do not even think that blocks used for walls should be added to the list "IF" they are not soft blocks. Because whatever blocks you add to the list, people will just use other blocks for walls. Therefore, since you obviously can't add every block to the list (because that would defeat the purpose of having a distinction between soft and hard blocks) then the list of soft-blocks should be mostly restricted to just that, soft blocks.

 

[_DELETED_10000]

Things are explained in videos.

@kperkins1982 As far as I have read, GP will only allow sieging when a player is online and ON their claim. So, no waking up to destroyed builds.

Roads should be protected.


GP has commands. Commands must still be used for grief.

 

[Belisarius1991]

On another topic, I am in agreement with many on the forums regarding certain things such as roads (and possibly other good builds). My town began creating a series of roads on the current map about a month ago. The roads stretch many thousand blocks and even connect the northern and southern continents. Under the new system, I find it highly unlikely that such a player driven feat would ever occur. Because if grief is legal, then what is the point? Any jerk can come along and ruin all the hard work we put into it.

If the problem is handling the massive number of petitions, then perhaps something can be done to alleviate this end of the problem. I understand hesitating to hand out power to correct grief, but simply allowing grief is not the answer. Herocraft has had lovely maps with great builds because griefing was punished. You take away the punishment, and you will not have a nice looking Herocraft any longer. And you will lose players.

An issue then is what method should be used to determine what should be protected and what should be allowed to be griefed. Because obviously some builds are great and others.... not so much.

What if there was a group, possibly Architects or some type of Organization, that people could petition, to receive approval/protection of their build? People that are clearly skilled builders might apply for this organization (or it could simply be the architects of the server). Then these individuals would be petitioned by players of the server to have their builds considered for "protective status". If the builds are deemed worthy, then they would receive protection. What this would entail I am not certain about. Either signs denoting the protective status and punishment for violating the protection or some type of actual regioned protections (though this seems rather unfeasible). Such builds would obviously not need to be for personal use (nothing like a home or some type of building for personal gain). But builds like roads or just some nice statue or something worth protecting. A build for public enjoyment/use. The Architects could post requirements to receive such protection so as to limit pointless applications that have no chance of getting approved. This would function like the UNESCO World Heritage Sites. Worthy builds would be offered protection of the server sanctioned building organization. Non-worthy builds are not given protection and can be griefed/destroyed.

A few problems with the above mentioned idea are as follows:
At what point would such a build be considered for this protection? And how would builds be protected in between the start and finished product?
What would the requirements be?
What would this protection entail?
What would the punishment be and who would enforce/correct the problem?

I know this isn't a perfect idea, but I thought it might be an idea worth mentioning. This way we could protect builds that people really like and encourage people to continue to build great stuff outside of protected areas.

Also, because Knirps got her above post in before mine, IF we don't want to protect even good builds, I still agree that roads are a priority and should be prohibited from being griefed if they are clearly well built.

 

[_DELETED_10000]

@Belisarius1991 That is a beautiful post, I love the reference to UNESCO.

Maybe special team builders.

 

[Belisarius1991]

Yes @Knirps, I agree about the signs. I just figured someone with the above mentioned powers would be out of question lol. It is not a bad idea, but as you say, would require someone quite dedicated and willing to spend their time dealing with such petitions. I figured the signs were an easier, albeit less sure, method of protecting builds.

I like the Admin of Architecture idea, but if that is out of the question, and we were limited to signs, we could have a section in the forums listing protected builds so as to prevent false signs protecting unprotected builds. Just thoughts though, you know spit-balling ideas here.

 

[Nashah]

I have a few questions regarding greif that are very important to me.

I'm very excited about the new map, and some of the changes being made. It would make me very happy to see our player base expand and get back to the numbers we've seen in the past. I remember a time where I had to queue for login because we were so busy!

However the greifing thing, just might have the opposite effect.

Currently I feel safe that if I build something other players know it is ok to steal from my chests but it is against the rules to destroy my build. And even if they did I know they will be dealt with. However if on the new map if it were to be the case that not only could they destroy my creations, but not be punished.

Well I would leave the server until such time that the decision was reversed.

However I'm hoping that I just don't yet know all the details and am assuming the worst.

It seems insane to me that we'd go from the system we have now to people waking up to destroyed houses covered in cobble penises and that being ok.

Agreed. I may end up leaving also depending upon how this works. This has me very concerned.

I'm completely ignorant as to how the GP system works. But for one it seems like it's pretty much impossible to protect something like a road that you've built. I'm not sure how high/low the cost will be to set up these regions but if it's a thousand or so... you can bet there will be pkers who camp beginners, not only killing them but destroying their makeshift base just for the kicks. (not saying all pkers are this way, but you guys know some people would do this)

Before living on your own was sorta difficult but it was possible. Now it seems impossible. If you don't have a gp up and someone finds out where you live, they will probably kill you (which is fine), steal your stuff (also fine) and then destroy your house. (not fine)

I don't want to be only to create one structure and that be it. I love wandering around and finding neat places for something like a pool, a tent, whatever. Currently most would see such a thing and leave it be because it's not worth the hassle to destroy that stuff. But if it's allowed then you can bet you'll get some people that will go around with that as their prime objective.

My favorite part of herocraft was exploring around and seeing the things people have built, like Jonsoons unfinished dock. I know the current system of how to claim land or request to take over something is a bit tedious and quite a bit of work for mods/admins, but I loved this system.

 

[Dakinara]

I doubt its possible in a reasonable manner but does the GP plugin allow for "timestamp" saves? It would be nice if the majority of "building" type blocks could be auto replaced following a siege, would resolve a lot of issues IMO.

I think having the siege based on mayor being online is not a good system. Should try something like the old shadow bane system - enemy does something that marks "intent to siege" a town, town then has some period (24 hours, idk, whatever feels reasonable) to respond with a set a time for the siege to go live, then sieges become more of events that multiple towns may show up for to attack / defend. Otherwise you end up with people abusing the mayor tag (ho ho our mayor is a bot and is never online), or 3AM siege crap where no one fights but everything just gets ransacked.

 

[joshtsai]

So I'm not really a big builder and I doubt you will ever see me making anything that would ever be considered "pretty" on the server. That being said I do love just being able to run around the map and look at all of the great things that people have built on the server. I think the path that the new map is currently taking with regards to greifing is not the proper route we should be taking. Yes people are turned away from the server due to bad landscapes, but people are also turned away from the server because they got griefed. I'm glad to see this post up and people voicing their concerns.

I also want to mention this about sieges, In the video posted by the creators of GP they said during siege mode, no chests can be opened and no items can drop on the ground. Assuming this will be true for all members of a siege I don't think we need to worry about raiders stealing everything in a town. I agree with Dak in that we should have some sort of system to revert damage done during a siege because even thought I'm excited for the opportunity to siege towns I don't feel like their town should be fully destroyed.

 

[Belisarius1991]

I also want to mention this about sieges, In the video posted by the creators of GP they said during siege mode, no chests can be opened and no items can drop on the ground. Assuming this will be true for all members of a siege I don't think we need to worry about raiders stealing everything in a town. I agree with Dak in that we should have some sort of system to revert damage done during a siege because even thought I'm excited for the opportunity to siege towns I don't feel like their town should be fully destroyed.

The aspects of the GP plugin are configurable. I think you are misunderstanding what they mean about the chests being unable to be opened during a siege. This is in regards to the moments during a siege when the town under attack cannot build nor can they open chests or drop items (This is to prevent the defenders from walling themselves in and stashing away their valuables if I understand correctly). Once the siege is over and assuming the attackers (the raiders) win by killing the defenders, they have a short time to open chests and loot the town before they are ejected from the town. So no, with a siege, your chests are not safe. The exception for this will be chests you have lwc'd. Those will be safe. But a chest simply covered with dirt will not be safe from the raiders if they kill you in your town.

Someone may correct me if I am wrong. This is just the way I currently understand it.

 

[_DELETED_10000]

http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/grief-prevention/

 

[joshtsai]

The aspects of the GP plugin are configurable. I think you are misunderstanding what they mean about the chests being unable to be opened during a siege. This is in regards to the moments during a siege when the town under attack cannot build nor can they open chests or drop items (This is to prevent the defenders from walling themselves in and stashing away their valuables if I understand correctly). Once the siege is over and assuming the attackers (the raiders) win by killing the defenders, they have a short time to open chests and loot the town before they are ejected from the town. So no, with a siege, your chests are not safe. The exception for this will be chests you have lwc'd. Those will be safe. But a chest simply covered with dirt will not be safe from the raiders if they kill you in your town.

Someone may correct me if I am wrong. This is just the way I currently understand it.

I see thank you for the clarification. I don't really think that system should stay the way it is, perhaps an ejection from the region right before the siege ends to prevent mass looting from a town?
I'm not super familiar with the system and I think I need to do some more reading into it to better understand the plugin like you guys clearly have.

 

[kperkins1982]

Lets say that greifing is allowed, however there will be things that are still ban-able offenses.

Imagine the following situation.

A player gets banned for using some exploit. He is furious and comes back on his friends account for the sole purpose of greifing. It is now his mission to piss off people and nothing is gonna be done about that?

There are whole teams of people that go around greifing SMP servers and even make youtube channels dedicated to greifing.

 

[_DELETED_10000]

I see thank you for the clarification. I don't really think that system should stay the way it is, perhaps an ejection from the region right before the siege ends to prevent mass looting from a town?
I'm not super familiar with the system and I think I need to do some more reading into it to better understand the plugin like you guys clearly have.

Half of the purpose of sieging is to get to chests. Mass looting is the point.

It's mass destruction of soft-blocks which is the grief part which is the topic of this thread.