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Suggestion Last Nights IRC thoughts on fixes

Should townships be overhauled in this specific way ->low taxes, weekly taxes, no income on housing?

  • Yes. But, ....(I will make a post)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No. These ideas are crud!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe, but I don't understand why, .... (I will make a post)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
Below I have a few thoughts on how to fix the current system of townships, whitelist, griefing, etc. In no specific order here they are.

1. Townships: Remove DAILY taxes, set income on homes to 0. (Regardless of Direction this should be done.)

2. Townships:
Have mods/admins check towns activity monthly. Even write a couple of plugins to compare timestamp data perhaps internally, and notify staff somewhere on say, a webpage that shows towns that are going to expire. Then let the mods/admins handle it when it shows up. I can think of a dozen ways to implement this. For starters. Make a /clan bb. Force mods+admins to join it. Make a plugin that posts a /clan bb msg so when mods and admins login it directly notifies them right there when they login by seeing recent clan bulletin board msgs.

3. Townships:
Set weekly taxes on townships at significantly lower rates, around 15 to 250 for a capital. Similar to older systems.

4. Townships:
Set up trading shops to generate lower money, but enough to pay for taxes if towns get involved in producing these goods, but also enough to help them grow a little at a time if money is factored in here. i suggest it not

5. Townships:
I suggest that we setup a caravan/delivery system as you have, with regards to PVP/PVE, that allows towns to expand based on activity -- Which leads me to>
Trading: They can login, escort deliveries to obtain goods required to upgrade their regions, or pay for these goods with souls earned from producing goods.
Banking: Town banks should be used to directly purchase goods, not player-banks. Mayors and other players can donate to town banks, and town banks can net money from conquering CO's. Never, should this money be withdrawn for player-money directly. It should be translated to items which reward the player gear (which can be sold, or traded for) reward the town with resources, or pay for the towns taxes. Never anything else. Either way, the system is inflated, everything produces too much money/consumes money too fast, and once one of those factors becomes imbalanced -- the TIME factor is still "FAST" so that it quickly hurts or benefits the economy of that town -- Which leads me to>

6. Townships: Slow time down, slow down generation or null it out. (Regardless of Direction this should be done, taxes should be weekly and less.)

7. Townships:
Conquest factoring / PVP Factoring - I think we should definitely do CO's to generate active incomes of money. this would be a cool trick to help revive PVP. But, I believe introducing Battlegrounds, Colliseum duels and arena matches, would be FAR SUPERIOR to this.

8. Map PVP: Constructive Learning / Helpful PVP -- People on PVE would be encouraged to enter PVP where they can learn on their own pace and PVP at will, with their own gear, and without having to travel to spawn to take a portal, off of the long cooldown for recall timers, these arenas and duels in colliseum are fantastic, and a great system we should encourage more.

we need to speed time up, in regards to THIS system, ^

9. Map PVP: Furthermore, we should probably make "Battlegrounds" similar to open world pvp, think "warsong gulch" from wow, where each side has a castle prebuilt, and has to CTF. Full LOOT pvp too! make it hardcore

10. More types of PVP styles! I would suggest Colliseum duels and arena matches (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5) these should be Kit-PVP matches where players risk no gear of their own. Battlegrounds should be custom areas the Architect teams can build monthly or every several months to add new ones, and new balance to PVP sectors, they would be areas with custom objectives and full-loot PVP which is not currently available even in open-world pvp. Open world PVP is bad as the system is currently, because people don't like being camped. Having alternative options where there is more risk and reward and where PVP can be done on each individuals own time will yield better results, and we can advertise the server as being PVP friendly.

11. Greylisting / Registration require checking your email / Reading the hc.to/rules -- Bring this back, make greylisters a thing. Force people to check their email to be able to be whitelisted, and inside the email refer them to a link to the wiki. If players cannot put in this much effort, then they're not going to pull out their debit card, EVER, for the server. They're not going to support us, and they're most likely not ever going to stick around. Cut the dead weight. Make people jump a few hoops to get in. Make the method automatic. Automatic whitelisting needs to end.

12. Give other staff positions more power. Architects or other various people who are contributing should have more say in the development of the way things are going, especially those of us with more level headed views on balance, fairness, and equality. Level-headed or not, these things should be factored or weighed against how the server can bring in money, what types of players we're fishing for, and the community (effectively "we") want to nurture.

An example of this is that I think we should bring back senior architects who can help improve the server on their own time, by granting those of us who are trusted access to make changes to areas around noble plots, bridges, plant trees, bring in more flower types than just using generic "bonemeal" on the ground which produces only red and yellows, there are things we could be doing to add finishing touches. This is more of a personal gripe, but I miss having people like Symbolite around with spawn region perms who were able to fix problems or random glitches/errors pasted in later by admins or mods.

Another problem is that Moderators would have to do some of this stuff, and they have a lot more factors to worry about with regards to whitelists and way too many people griefing one or two blocks and peing it. Moderators should have more control over rolling back damage and should have things like this on macromods. Rolling back areas of only a few blocks should take seconds if we do something or educate/train people to do these jobs. I will iterate again though, trust is required.

I would love to see newsletters from the Herocraft team talking about recent balance team changes, new staff positions people get, talk about the server, whats going on, who got promoted, towns that fall. Emails are awesome. Heralds should be a thing. Like bloggers that post about the on-goings of the community. Talk about wiki changes. Etc.

..and more. I will leave this up to discussion.

But I'm seeking opinions -- We need to be a team as a community, we need to provide input to ourselves -- Everyone should get on a logical path to improve the server that makes sense for various playstyles, fairness, and learning. Everyone's opinions should be considered sharply in regards to changes that affect us all. Consider the good, the bad, and the ugly -- and post about it!
 

trapzor

Iron
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
I voted No, because...

I don't see how early towns (tribes) would be able to generate the income needed to expand to later levels. Requiring towns to trade for income is good, but at the early stages of a town the housing income helps generate the money to build structures and expand. Maybe I'm wrong about this, please post if you disagree.
 

WitchOnaRampage

Legacy Supporter 9
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Location
Australia
No, because...

1. Erm, what's the problem again? Specifically, what do you see as not working in the current system that this proposal is specifically designed to fix?

2. Server management needs to respond to the experiences/expectations that players have built up over the life of the map thus far to maintain community trust. I've the feeling that this suggestion is significantly outside the current conceptualization of how Townships works.
 

Nukadokuu

Gold
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
I covered my thoughts on towns generating money in the post @WitchOnaRampage linked, but some of the PvP things really stood out to me. I personally love the idea of Battlegrounds, like Warsong Gulch as you mentioned from World of Warcraft. My concern with them is that they would eliminate or reduce world PvP too much. Perhaps say one battle every other hour during Peace? That way it doesn't overlap with Warzone times, and leaves time for regular world PvP, which people seem to enjoy. I also enjoy the idea of objectives in world PvP, like say the Capture Points we had last map I think it was. I know Warzones kind of take that place, but as far as I can tell the Warzones are mostly ignored. Perhaps having some capture points inside Warzones would help? Like say a 50% chance of an additional medal dropping while inside them, or a small amount of souls for every five minutes they are under your team's control.

As far as battlegrounds, Capture the Flag isn't a bad idea, but I can see where some classes might have huge advantages. Classes that naturally have high maneuverability like Ninjas and Dragoons would off-balance it pretty easily as far as flag delivery, while classes like Ninja and Runeblade would be amazing for taking out enemy FCs. If teams could be randomly decided or somehow a sorting system is put in, I can see this working well.

An idea I love is a castle siege type of setup. Imagine both sides have a castle, and the objective is to kill the enemy "King". Give the King, or team leader, a bonus to stats and such, but if they die it's game over, or simply give the other team a point. 50% increased health and damage given, and a 50% healing taken reduction or something like that, to make them stronger in short fights, but weaker in longer ones. Or perhaps forgo all the stat changes and just give them something like a weak passive regeneration or something.

Overall, I like fair and strait-forward PvP, not camping or ganking like what usually happens, but I do understand that it's just part of how the server is.
 

Nukadokuu

Gold
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Also, perhaps someone could set up a series of tutorial videos for tips and pointers on how to play classes well, like the Hero Spotlight videos on some of the classes on the Wiki? I liked those, but not every class has one, and they're almost all outdated. I think things like that would help a lot for bringing PvE players to PvP.
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
Also, perhaps someone could set up a series of tutorial videos for tips and pointers on how to play classes well, like the Hero Spotlight videos on some of the classes on the Wiki? I liked those, but not every class has one, and they're almost all outdated. I think things like that would help a lot for bringing PvE players to PvP.

Have you thought of making something yourself and asking Kainzo if he likes your work and can post it somewhere?
 

xexorian

Admin ZeeZo
Retired Staff
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Location
USA
My concern with them is that they would eliminate or reduce world PvP too much. Perhaps say one battle every other hour during Peace? That way it doesn't overlap with Warzone times, and leaves time for regular world PvP, which people seem to enjoy. I also enjoy the idea of objectives in world PvP, like say the Capture Points we had last map I think it was. I know Warzones kind of take that place, but as far as I can tell the Warzones are mostly ignored. Perhaps having some capture points inside Warzones would help? Like say a 50% chance of an additional medal dropping while inside them, or a small amount of souls for every five minutes they are under your team's control.

As far as battlegrounds, Capture the Flag isn't a bad idea, but I can see where some classes might have huge advantages. Classes that naturally have high maneuverability like Ninjas and Dragoons would off-balance it pretty easily as far as flag delivery, while classes like Ninja and Runeblade would be amazing for taking out enemy FCs. If teams could be randomly decided or somehow a sorting system is put in, I can see this working well.

An idea I love is a castle siege type of setup. Imagine both sides have a castle, and the objective is to kill the enemy "King". Give the King, or team leader, a bonus to stats and such, but if they die it's game over, or simply give the other team a point. 50% increased health and damage given, and a 50% healing taken reduction or something like that, to make them stronger in short fights, but weaker in longer ones. Or perhaps forgo all the stat changes and just give them something like a weak passive regeneration or something.

Overall, I like fair and strait-forward PvP, not camping or ganking like what usually happens, but I do understand that it's just part of how the server is.

This is the type of input I value extremely, @barbas0l and I am sure are close of mind in this topic, as you are. At the least, I would like to see more avenues for people to learn without rage quitting first. I hope these types of implementations would bring back some of the other players who enjoy PVP but get their .. as barb puts it, "Dicks kicked in" for running out there against a bunch of veterans who are bored and want to camp people for loot. That can be their outlet, and nothing about the system I'm suggesting prevents anyone from organizing their own world PVP. In fact in my time as King across multiple maps, we did organize PvP to promote things going on.. when we ourselves were mostly a PvE focused group. I speak from that experience and talking to my old members, most of which who have now quit for various reasons. One of those major reasons was PVP camping, GY camping, Bed Camping, etc.

The time/reward aspect of world pvp frustrated a major portion of the playerbase I entertained at one point or another. Some of these people would put in days of effort just to die and lose it all, then quit, despite how much I try to encourage them that it is just minecraft and they can get more, it only takes about 5 seconds to get jumped by 6 guys who are maxed out levels in full enchanted Unbreaking 3 Prot 4 gear with gold weapons. You stand no chance and that's only fun for the veteran gankers, most of whom have already left the community after the other ones who even faught between themselves of like minded folk gave up. There was a stifling flow of new players because of people carelessly ganking level 1's or level 15's or even level 50's when you bring your whole team.

With how the system is now, you keep your armor and held-item sure, but most people have to carry redstone, emeralds, food, potions, enchanted gear, enchanted tools, etc. to properly prepare for any given pvp situation in open world PVP. It's not feasible, and usually the gankers would burn your stuff, or go put it in an LWC they place right outside your town. It got bad, and world PVP is mostly TOXIC for the community if not managed correctly.

That said, if EVERYTHING was PVE or if everything was PVP, then things could be rebalanced around that better, in my opinion. For example, if we removed the building block restrictions on town structures, leave the soul costs (maybe lower them across the board) and then made towns have more creative freedom again, but still not allow things like walls to sky limit, then yea it would work to help with world pvp. Kainzo said before on other maps, that towns were meant to be raidable, and it should be an enforceable rule in my opinion.

The reason being is that I am with Kainzo on his ways, LWC's should be your only form of protecting your items, ultimately. Townships should be region protection, and if you don't cover your chests when raiders show up to kill you, you should be raided. If you don't keep your doors locked, and use double airlocks on systems, and come up with clever ways to defend your town, you should be raided. There were a ton of clever things townships used to do, and people were happy to share their designs back around then, a lot had changed since then however and most of this innate knowledge has been lost.

It now revolves around a broken/borked plugin that breaks horribly wrong if some noob just accidentally tampers with their houses. It makes recruiting, as @AdrastosArmor has said, "Detrimental to townships" because of how easily something can break you, and with the sped up time frame of town tax and town income being daily instead of bi-weekly, or even weekly, things get messed up, FAST. The values of town tax are too high to be daily limits, and the income on buildings was not balanced perfectly, so now we have towns generated huge incomes and @Kainzo has stated before that townships were never meant to be sources of income.

That is why I mentioned "CO's" being a thing, and giving players in PVP who control them a chance to grow their towns by capturing objectives. Yes this limits the townships who can participate by limiting growth, but it also forces them into PVPing in groups, so it's not always about ganking that noob, maybe you want to recruit them and have them fight with you to fund your town on PVP. There are many factors to consider about bringing about these changes that should be continued to discussed in the future ahead.

TL;DR There is no single bandaid that can fix the current mechanics of the server. Everything is slightly "off" or too "complex" currently to work correctly or as intended. Once bug fixes and modifications to the configs happen -- If they happen -- I would imagine things would get better slowly, but first I say we address the inflating economy's souls. Then, once we've fixed that, we start working towards adding in more avenues for PvP that will last the length of the map and not just the Hype at the start when everyone wants to build up to checkout new changes.

On one final note:
I voted No, because...

I don't see how early towns (tribes) would be able to generate the income needed to expand to later levels. Requiring towns to trade for income is good, but at the early stages of a town the housing income helps generate the money to build structures and expand. Maybe I'm wrong about this, please post if you disagree.

I am saying we set taxes to bastion-era levels, or similar, so that a few people can easily support their beloved structures as they are now, so no one gets screwed by removing housing income. Make them weekly and low. T1 should be around 15 souls a week, T4 should be around 125, with Metropolis (T6?) being around 250-500s. These people put in a lot of paid effort, blood, sweat, and tears into the towns as they are, so we should do something to compensate them, that will go in line with fixing the system.

The other way of doing this, is by making these taxes easy to get by encouraging trade better. Towns who build shops can buy their first shop items required, and get the taxes they need to sustain their towns. The production/manufacturing and shop stuff should be modified to cover taxes, and we should do something there for both PVP and PVE towns.

One way of doing this is to introduce a few new items into the game, and have them be new requirements for upgrading buildings, instead of souls as it was.

For example, have a "trade" item called a "Delivery" when (on you, or in your /backpack) it will be a leash item, renamed ofcourse, that spawns a packmule that slows your movement speed by like 50%. You must walk this packmule to either shops from a nearby town selling trade goods, or to these new CO's (have two or so on PVE at least) and these castles will have an NPC that trades you something like "Bundle of Lumber" that you can then take back to your township. Members should be able to do this for the mayor, and they should be used to upgrade future buildings like houses from Chalet to Manors, etc. Maybe taking even a few of them to finish an upgrade.

This way, towns are forced to trade (be active) to upgrade their townships, this encourages towns to partake in trading on PVE at the least.

The other way, for PVP towns is to have a townbank ONLY take souls, and never withdraw. When a town captures a castle or CO in PVP, they gain souls, same as PVE perhaps, and they can then spend souls out of the town bank at new merchant NPC's or signs at TD to purchase the goods they need to upgrade their towns.

In this way, limiting the CO structures forces people to help each other on PVP and team up, it gives PVPers an advantage of not having to always carry a pack mule if they partake in world PVP instead of just trying to trade like PVE towns, and both options presented here require activity.

#No more dead towns.
#No more "money" towns.

There is more to this discussion I would like to see yet, from other people in the community. Please post thoughts or ideas!

-X
 
Last edited:

LordZelkova

Ashen One...
Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Also, perhaps someone could set up a series of tutorial videos for tips and pointers on how to play classes well, like the Hero Spotlight videos on some of the classes on the Wiki? I liked those, but not every class has one, and they're almost all outdated. I think things like that would help a lot for bringing PvE players to PvP.
Mr. @Ahrall is working on some and I have plans to make more tutorial type things eventually.
 

barbas0l

Legacy Supporter 7
Retired Staff
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
While at work today, I've been writing up a lot of ideas that we discussed the past few nights, and I'll be creating an organized post for it when I get home. I've also got an ace up my sleeve that might make it more appealing to staff in terms of not creating any extra work/coding for them ;) (It's not hijacking someone else's system either haha)

More to come soon,
Barbas0l
 

Ahrall

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Location
Beautiful sunny Californ-i-a
Hmmm? Oh, yes can confirm (for those of you who don't go on the Herald forums) Hero Spotlight is making a comeback. Pyro just got an overhaul and I've finished filming for Dragoon but I am extremely busy and tend to only be on late so filming is a sloooooow process. Might make a thread begging people to help film, but who knows really
 
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