Suggestion Incentivizing Building and Encouraging Creativity.

[Jrr_]

Autobuild will never be allowed, but I could see us letting schematica for viewing purposes only being allowed, but ultimately it would be @Kainzo decision.

you can do this already, you can't block it I'm pretty sure. You can only block the auto build feature.

 

[Weikauno]

Keep inventory on death for town members while in town and full drop/no deathchest for raiders could be one good way to add risk to raiders and disincentivize box towns.

On another note, it would be cool to have monthly/bi-monthly or however often competitions for towns to make maps integrated into their town that could be copy pasted and used in the arenas, with a payout of rent or something and a feature mention when players load into said map on arenas, and the community favorites could stay in rotation and keep giving (possibly increasing)payout while new maps come in from the next competitions, as a king-of-the-hill kind of thing. A sense of pride is always a great factor pushing beautiful town builds and publicity could play well into this.

 

[Plagiarizing]

Keep inventory on death for town members while in town and full drop/no deathchest for raiders could be one good way to add risk to raiders and disincentivize box towns.

On another note, it would be cool to have monthly/bi-monthly or however often competitions for towns to make maps integrated into their town that could be copy pasted and used in the arenas, with a payout of rent or something and a feature mention when players load into said map on arenas, and the community favorites could stay in rotation and keep giving (possibly increasing)payout while new maps come in from the next competitions, as a king-of-the-hill kind of thing. A sense of pride is always a great factor pushing beautiful town builds and publicity could play well into this.

Not really all for the keeping inventory option, but then again I could be biased because I'm not even a fan of the AngelChest system currently, Raiding players already has the risk that you are going into unfamiliar territory while having the threat of them able to Teleport back into their town. There has to be some reward for raiding players I think not just full risk no reward. Theres already so many things IMO that prevent players from actually wanting to PVP and sadly PVP is a huge part of most of the large MMOs content.

 

[DanTheSpearton]

Not really all for the keeping inventory option, but then again I could be biased because I'm not even a fan of the AngelChest system currently, Raiding players already has the risk that you are going into unfamiliar territory while having the threat of them able to Teleport back into their town. There has to be some reward for raiding players I think not just full risk no reward. Theres already so many things IMO that prevent players from actually wanting to PVP and sadly PVP is a huge part of most of the large MMOs content.

I think you and Weikauno are both saying something reasonable, I think ideally finding a middle ground between what you 2 are suggesting would be the best thing to do, because you both say things that have a point imo, so it shouldn't totally be what you suggest, or totally be what Weikauno suggested imo.

 

[Weikauno]

Not really all for the keeping inventory option, but then again I could be biased because I'm not even a fan of the AngelChest system currently, Raiding players already has the risk that you are going into unfamiliar territory while having the threat of them able to Teleport back into their town. There has to be some reward for raiding players I think not just full risk no reward. Theres already so many things IMO that prevent players from actually wanting to PVP and sadly PVP is a huge part of most of the large MMOs content.

The classic 2012 herocraft style of raiding and looting chests, robbing towns/players dry isn't exactly the best experience for players that aren't great at PVP, and losing building materials while in your own town feels pretty bad. I don't really like the death chest system either, imo it just promotes camping and repeat killing of defenseless players. I'd be fine with death chests being removed.

I'd argue it'd be better for player retention for keep inventory to be applied universally(I know, not very hardcore), and for other incentives like high xp gains and a percentage of the victim's money to be incentives to PVP out in the open world, keeping my first paragraph of this post in mind. It's not exactly easy to hop back on the server and want to play after you get ganked and lose dozens to hundreds of hours of items because you decided to move your valuables through the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time. It's like the inverse of the "teach a man to fish" analogy, take away a man's fish and he'll be hungry for a day, but take away a man's fishing rod and he'll be hungry for life.

Also on PVP incentive: just throwing an idea out there, maybe with the return of town halls, they could also function something like the old PVP castles(this could tie in with the map-making competition I mentioned in my other post). Capturing or defending the hall would give an xp and/or item drop boost or a sum of money to the winning town scaling depending on how many raiders are there and how many town members are there. These boosts could be small, but able to stack if going on a defending/raiding winning streak. Failing to cap or defend would result in the boosts being reset to zero, so there is always an incentive to keep raiding or defending. There would have to be some kind of mechanic to make the fight a bit more fair for the raiders, something like whenever a town member dies defending, they get a debuff called "low morale" that lowers their max health until the raid is over, or something like that since they would be able to flood in by warping into town.

edit: I think keep inventory really comes down to an economy issue, the potency of its effect can be very different depending on where and how players can source items/materials and money, i.e. how easily replaceable items are, and to what extent we want the server to be hardcore. Gotta understand the line between so much risk that it's not worth even logging on and trying and so little risk that there's no sense of adventure.

 

[Plagiarizing]

The classic 2012 herocraft style of raiding and looting chests, robbing towns/players dry isn't exactly the best experience for players that aren't great at PVP, and losing building materials while in your own town feels pretty bad. I don't really like the death chest system either, imo it just promotes camping and repeat killing of defenseless players. I'd be fine with death chests being removed.

I'd argue it'd be better for player retention for keep inventory to be applied universally(I know, not very hardcore), and for other incentives like high xp gains and a percentage of the victim's money to be incentives to PVP out in the open world, keeping my first paragraph of this post in mind. It's not exactly easy to hop back on the server and want to play after you get ganked and lose dozens to hundreds of hours of items because you decided to move your valuables through the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time. It's like the inverse of the "teach a man to fish" analogy, take away a man's fish and he'll be hungry for a day, but take away a man's fishing rod and he'll be hungry for life.

Also on PVP incentive: just throwing an idea out there, maybe with the return of town halls, they could also function something like the old PVP castles(this could tie in with the map-making competition I mentioned in my other post). Capturing or defending the hall would give an xp and/or item drop boost or a sum of money to the winning town scaling depending on how many raiders are there and how many town members are there. These boosts could be small, but able to stack if going on a defending/raiding winning streak. Failing to cap or defend would result in the boosts being reset to zero, so there is always an incentive to keep raiding or defending. There would have to be some kind of mechanic to make the fight a bit more fair for the raiders, something like whenever a town member dies defending, they get a debuff called "low morale" that lowers their max health until the raid is over, or something like that since they would be able to flood in by warping into town.

edit: I think keep inventory really comes down to an economy issue, the potency of its effect can be very different depending on where and how players can source items/materials and money, i.e. how easily replaceable items are, and to what extent we want the server to be hardcore. Gotta understand the line between so much risk that it's not worth even logging on and trying and so little risk that there's no sense of adventure.

I agree losing everything is a huge let down and demoralizing however that's what makes mc so fun right? also knowing theres that major risk of losing everything, or going on the hunt and knowing you could gain everything or lose everything. Sadly HC rn is "Get good items store them in a chest bc nobody pvps" u kill a player best thing you will get is 4 leather and 8 steak. maybe a diamond tool.

 

[Weikauno]

I agree losing everything is a huge let down and demoralizing however that's what makes mc so fun right? also knowing theres that major risk of losing everything, or going on the hunt and knowing you could gain everything or lose everything. Sadly HC rn is "Get good items store them in a chest bc nobody pvps" u kill a player best thing you will get is 4 leather and 8 steak. maybe a diamond tool.

Yes, the thrill of looting your enemies and the possibility of losing your inventory gives a great sense of suspense and authenticity, however it doesn't really work well as a long-term gameplay loop for a live server that wants to keep a population, especially when the looting is all one-sided.

 

[Plagiarizing]

Yes, the thrill of looting your enemies and the possibility of losing your inventory gives a great sense of suspense and authenticity, however it doesn't really work well as a long-term gameplay loop for a live server that wants to keep a population, especially when the looting is all one-sided.

I feel plenty of servers that do full loot do great population wise idk though, turning this game into something like WoW is going to be a knockoff version of WoW and people would prob rather go play that than this. Maybe it'll work who knows. Full loots awesome and tons of Full loot servers do just fine even HC did just fine back in the day. Aside from full loot I think content is a main thing and is key.

 

[Weikauno]

I feel plenty of servers that do full loot do great population wise idk though, turning this game into something like WoW is going to be a knockoff version of WoW and people would prob rather go play that than this. Maybe it'll work who knows. Full loots awesome and tons of Full loot servers do just fine even HC did just fine back in the day. Aside from full loot I think content is a main thing and is key.

Yeah, I think if we get balance and the new player intro right full drop could be just fine.

 

[jagraal]

Excellent post, Stronghold. Autobuild/ schematic gets a huge no from me, at least.

 

[EmeryBell]

I'm all about encouraging more building and creativity on the server. It's what makes the world feel alive and unique. We need to find ways to make building rewarding and exciting again. Maybe some cool incentives or rewards for players who go above and beyond with their builds could help shake things up.

 

[JustinNewman]

Absolutely! Fostering creativity on the server is a game-changer. Building is what breathes life into the world, making it uniquely ours. I'm totally on board with the idea of adding incentives for those who go the extra mile with their builds – it adds that extra spark. If you're looking for more inspiration or just want to explore some cool Minecraft stuff,

 

[XARXU]

I don't know whether I posted in this when it was originally written, but I have always been a huge proponent of getting away from the #MurderhoboMasterRace vibe, and there being reason for better.

I know I'm pretty at PvP. I favor the less toxic elements of gameplay like farming, husbandry, fishing, crafting and building. I'm a middling builder at best, but I'm very enthusiastic about it, and am always looking to improve the quality of my builds in both aesthetics and utility.

Unfortunately, in murderhobo-friendly environments, there's no motivation nor point to build. You're liable to get spamclicked into oblivion by someone's aggravating 8 year old little brother before you have even managed to get halfway through building something, and they will camp out and keep killing you, preventing you from making anything decent. Even if you find someplace with a tactical edge to build, no plugins provide god-tier protection against hacked clients that will make even the most well-hidden base stand out like a glowing neon billboard to bad faith players. Even if you ban them, the damage is done and they've probably already leaked your base location to others.

So what's the answer?

Make Herocraft friendlier for players who like building and crafting by adding safe spots where they can’t be attacked. Encourage everyone to respect and help each other, and set up special areas or events where fighting isn’t allowed. This way, everyone can have fun, whether they like fighting or not.

In my experience, that's a hard sell when the loudest and most visible players, few as they may be, will push back on any such suggestion and try lending a false credibility to "if you make this game fun for non-murderhobos, the community will die".


So what suggestions do the other community members have, and how do we get the attention and interest of the shot-callers in this community so that we can actually be heard, and not just screaming at the sun for all our troubles?

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ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Preface -
I come from an age of Herocraft that is ancient history to many of you. Herocraft has changed significantly since I joined and its taken a long time for me to be ok with that. For a long time I wanted it to go back to the 'good ol' days' where pvp was shunned, cities were huge, and the politics were many. I don't think that way anymore. This is important because I want you to understand that my opinions and thoughts about Herocraft have changed greatly over my time here but despite those changes and that personal growth one prevailing thought has stuck with me, one that I can't let go of. One that I hope to talk to you about in this thread.

Towns Look Like Shit

Allow me to explain:
Towns used to be huge. Giant glowstone rings in the sky marked the floor to ceiling region in which you could build. People built structures, farms, town halls, and more - citizens were given plots to populate the streets and make the city look alive. Cities were restricted in style - nothing could be floating unless it looked like it was supposed to be flying, town's couldn't have roofs or be giant boxes, and these rules made things look cool as hell.

Much of it is gone now, but the old graveyard section of the forums used to have loads of cities with photos that blew modern towns out of the water. They were proper cities built to look cool and serve a purpose. This enhanced each city and area giving towns and kingdoms a unique feel, elevating them beyond just a collection of buildings stuck somewhere on the map. Walls and houses often had style limits enforced by mayors, which meant the Kingdom of the Rising Sun looked and felt like a feudal Japanese city while the town of Seagate was more akin to a tropical paradise on a distant island.

The Problem
Minecraft has little reason to build. The only reason you're going to build a house is because you want to. A cave in the side of a hill serves the same survival purpose as a grand mansion: Its shelter from monsters. Minecraft's core gameplay loop reflects this - it gets dark and monsters come out. In order to beat back the night you must mine for gear, make torches and armor and either fight or bring light to the darkness. As long as you have a place to store your things, aesthetics are secondary. The creative drive to build something that looks nice has to come from within.

Box Towns
At the time of writing we're in beta so its no surprise that people don't want to invest themselves in something that will be destroyed within a month. This I have no qualms with. However let me pose a question:

Are you going to build something more than a safe chest room on release?

The Townships plugin has no restrictions on roofs, and the heroes plugin makes walls hilariously easy to circumnavigate. Combine that with exploits, griefing, and planned betrayals and you will be actively punished for allowing your houses and towns to out in the open. The solution to this? Make a box with an airlock and dig down. Suddenly you have your own impenetrable vault that's only weakness is user error. And now that you have the most secure possible system in place to protect your items what is there to do? Level up and...

Kill Everything and Everyone
Its no secret that Herocraft is PvP centered. It almost always has been. Players historically have been bloodthirsty and brutal, sometimes extending to cruel and evil. Where some players looked for sport and to best other in a contest of skill for hard earned loot, others looked to dominate and rule simply spreading their dominion to all they came across. Spawn camping, toxic banter, and other downright abusive tactics were employed against any and all; even people who wanted no part in it.

I think a lot of this was propagated by the 'Hardcore Attitude' of the server, encouraging a dog-eat-dog style of play where you always have to look out for number 1. I'm not saying PvP is bad, but to a player who just wants to play the game and build something entirely by their own merit, having a screaming prepubescent teen chase you with a sword is not a great experience.

And do you know what happens to people when they're thrown into an unfamiliar PvP system that requires macros to function and they have a 13 year old screaming in OffTopic to get good as they get slain for the 10th time? They go elsewhere. I don't have the metrics but I watched a LOT of players leave the server because it simply wasn't fun to die and have your progress wiped over and over again when there was another server just a webpage away that wasn't going to have these problems.

Growing Up
The average age of the server was most likely a huge factor in this, but times have changed and I think so have we. We've alienated a lot people, but I also think we've retained a lot too. And Minecraft doesn't have a small player base, so active players aren't going to be hard to find. Not as easy to find in 2011, mind you, but I don't think they need to be. I personally have been focused on fostering the community and welcoming new players because we need them if we want Herocraft to be the best it can be. I've seen some incredible growth from players that I didn't think could change, and in turn this has changed me and the way I think about this game.

So what does this all mean? And how has talking about box towns turned into me rambling about PvP and alienating the player base?

Some of you can probably see where I'm going with this, but...

You Never Get a Second First Impression
If we want players to wonder out of spawn for the first time and fall in love with Herocraft, a strewn collection of cobblestone boxes serving as personal regions isn't going to help. At all. In the before times we used to have bedrock vaults for donors of a certain tier with a free teleport so you could afk in peace and safely store your items. The current system that we have right now is almost exactly the same, you just have to grind out 25c a day for it to stay up.
No one is going to come to Herocraft Remastered excited about all the square shapes they can see dotting the landscape in a game that is quite literally made out of boxes.

For years I've heard people tell me that this isn't Easycraft, but if I can set up an impenetrable bunker with 250c and a stack of cobblestone, I'd like to know what YOU consider Easycraft. And for the record, I don't think Easycraft is a bad thing, but that's a whole different discussion about difficulties and the experience that the server looks to provide.

TL;DR: My point is:

Herocraft Actively Discourages Building and Punishes Anything that Isn't a Box Town
As previously mentioned Minecraft's core gameplay loop doesn't even encourage building, all you need is a cave in the side of a wall and you're set as long as it can hold your things. The hardcore attitude of the server tends to drive players away, which while not detrimental, certainly doesn't help. And the PvP centric attitude encourages players to hide their belongings making classic town concepts impractical, dangerous, and high risk for the promise of absolutely zero reward. Lastly, box towns look like garbage and are a poor first impression on new players.

So I want to open the floor for discussion. How do we encourage building? What sort of rewards can we offer to incentivize and provide for the creation of sick ass builds that will draw players and make the server feel alive and stand out? Is that even something we want? I think it is. Please leave your thoughts below and lets work together to create something breathtaking and construct something worth building.

 

[j2gay]

Holy necro batman